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Supreme Court Debates Emergency Abortion Access Amid State Bans; House Speaker Mike Johnson To Address Protests; Tennessee Law Allows Teachers To Carry Guns; Significant Protests At University Of Texas; President Biden Approves Major Foreign Aid Package; Rising Anti-Semitism And Aggressive Actions On Campuses; U.S.-Israel Relations Tested By Gaza War; Hostage Crisis In Gaza. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired April 24, 2024 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:02:37]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Can doctors provide abortions as part of critical emergency care even when there's a ban in that state. The Supreme Court taking up that case in a contentious hearing with both sides demonstrating outside plus Congress coming to campus House Speaker Mike Johnson heading to Columbia University a school that's been paralyzed by pro-Palestinian protests. He may have a message for the school's president that it's time to step aside.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And Tennessee's new plan to keep students safe, letting teachers carry guns one year after a shooter killed six people in Nashville. We'll speak to a parent who sends her kids to the same school for her take on the new law. We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN News Central.

SANCHEZ: The future of abortion access is once again in the hands of the Supreme Court and right now the justices appear deeply divided over the latest case to come before them. At issue is whether hospitals can provide an abortion to a woman during a medical emergency that isn't considered life-threatening. Federal law would normally require doctors to provide that care.

KEILAR: The Biden administration is challenging one of the most restrictive abortion laws in the country in Idaho. The law there bans the procedure in nearly all cases with an exception to save the mother's life. Now the justices will begin drafting an opinion with a ruling expected by the end of June and it's a decision that could have major implications for millions of women emergency rooms and for providers across the country. For more on this let's bring in CNN senior Supreme Court analyst Joan Biskupic. Joan any indication based on what we've heard today on where the Justices are on this?

JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SENIOR SUPREME COURT ANALYST: Well a couple of things. First of all it was a very vigorous set of arguments and to your point about how much this can affect things nationwide, there are at least six other states that are as restrictive as Idaho. And there are more than 20 states that have new abortion regulations in the wake of the ruling two years ago that reversed Roe v Wade. Nearly a half century of abortion rights. The justices have already allowed the Idaho law to take effect. So that's already a signal that they're certainly open to it and I have to say many of the justices on this conservative dominated court were very skeptical of the government's arguments. Looking at maybe the government reaching too far into state medical issues that states should have authority over and we're going to play a clip from that.

[14:05:09]

But then I'm also going to mention a little caveat about some of the concern of what's actually happening on the ground. But let's hear first from Justice Neil Gorsuch, who was Donald Trump's first appointee to the Supreme Court, and some of his skepticism.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

NEIL GORSUCH, JUSTICE: The federal government essentially regulate the practice of medicine in the states through the spending clause. The answer, I think, is yes, Congress could prohibit gender reassignment surgeries across the nation. It could ban abortion across the nation through the use of its spending clause authority, right?

ELIZABETH B. PRELOGAR, SOLICITOR GENERAL: Congress does have broad authority under the spending clause. And yes, if it satisfies the conditions that the spending clause itself requires, then I think that that would be valid legislation. And the court has, in many contexts, recognized the spending clause legislation preempt.

GORSUCH: So the answer is yes. Okay.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BISKUPIC: Yeah. I mean, his point was that you're pushing pretty far here, but she kept trying to build in, you know, some restrictions. Basically, the point from the government, from Elizabeth Prelogar, the Solicitor General, is that there's really only a small category of cases, small but very profound and important, where a woman's health is seriously at risk. Whether her reproductive ability, whether she would have any kind of organ failure that doesn't rise to right, you know, frankly, on death's doorstep, which is the you know, a finding that Idaho wants is that a woman has to, you know, there has to be a fear of death. Now, let's so hear from Justice Elena Kagan, who was one of the many justices who tried to get at what exactly is going on the ground and how has this law already actually affected care in Idaho?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ELENA KAGAN, JUSTICE: I read recently that the hospital that has the greatest emergency room services in Idaho has, just in the few months that this has been in place, had to airlift six pregnant women to neighboring states, whereas in the prior year, they did one, the entire year. So, if Mr. Turner is right about what the state is trying to convey to hospitals about when they'll be prosecuted, why is this happening?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BISKUPIC: Yeah, she was referring to Joshua Turner, who was arguing on behalf of the state, who essentially said there's no real problem here. That the government itself is over-reading what this emergency medical act would entail and that the state is actually in sync with what it would entail. But I just want to say one last thing about the kind of concern that Justice Elena Kagan raised about how this plays out on the ground. Even some of the conservatives who are in the middle of the court, like Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett, they seem to be a little concerned there. But bottom line, the justices have already allowed this Idaho ban to take effect.

SANCHEZ: Joan Biskupic, really intense arguments before the court.

BISKUPIC: Yeah.

SANCHEZ: We appreciate you.

BISKUPIC: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Let's turn now to Jessica Levinson. She's a law professor at Loyola Law School, also the host of the Passing Judgment podcast. Thanks so much for being with us, Jessica. I am curious to get your perspective on the fact that Idaho's attorneys argued that this federal reading of the law doesn't conflict with the state's law. The federal government, through the Solicitor General, argued that there is a conflict, even though it is narrow. Where do you come down on this?

JESSICA LEVINSON, LAW PROFESSOR, LOYOLA LAW SCHOOL: Well, I think this is exactly what you have to argue either if you're the federal government's attorney or the state government's attorney or the state's attorney because that's what it all comes down to. Yes, this case is all about abortion and yes, we are back here talking about abortion after we just talked about the big Miffa-Pristone case, after the court in 2022 said we're getting out of the business of talking about state abortion bans. But this is a different question. It's all about whether or not this federal law that you heard Joan talking about, and this state law actually do conflict. Because if they do, then the answer is easy. Then we know that under the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution, it's the federal law that trumps, at least where there is a conflict.

And that's why you have Idaho saying, these two things can live together. There's no problem. And that's why you have the Biden administration saying, only in these narrow exceptions, because Elizabeth Prelogar does understand that she doesn't want this to look like federal overreach, only in these narrow circumstances, there is a conflict. And therefore the federal law, which allows doctors to provide abortions, if it's stabilizing care, even if it's not health- saving care, the federal law would trump.

KEILAR: It seems that there is this situation, Jessica, where some of these patients are being treated like hot potatoes, right? They're in a-you've got ERs in some cases that don't even want to treat them because they're worried that maybe their care at that very moment, it may not be emergent. It may not be an emergency situation, but it will become one almost definitely in some of these cases.

[14:10:09]

This issue came up today of prosecutorial discretion. Talk to us a little bit about what that means and how that's interacting with hospital decisions about whether they are giving women care that, you know, reasonably, I think a lot of folks might think they should.

LEVINSON: Yeah. So there was an important discussion just to your point about whether or not we would defer to doctors, for instance, that they in fact do need to perform an abortion because it is stabilizing care. And at what point would Idaho say, no, we're not deferring to you. We're not deferring to your good faith belief. And so there was this discussion about, do the doctors need to have a subjective or objectively reasonable belief that this is the type of care they need to provide? And the issue of prosecutorial discretion comes in where you heard the justices say, but what if a doctor says, I really believed it? Can the state prosecute anyway? And that's the question of prosecutorial discretion.

Can a district attorney, can the attorney general say, we don't believe you, and therefore we are subjecting you to prosecution? And just the threat of that prosecution is where you can obviously see a real and immediate chilling effect on doctors. And that, of course, deeply affects women on the ground who are seeking medical treatment.

KEILAR: Yeah, we're seeing that chilling effect. It's the airlifts that are coming this past year that didn't come the year before. Jessica Levinson, thank you so much. We really appreciate your insights.

LEVINSON: Thank you.

KEILAR: And we're following what really appears to be an escalating demonstration at the University of Texas, Austin. Right now, you're looking at live pictures coming to us from then. This is, or this is moments ago, I should say, in Austin. The Palestine Solidarity Committee of Austin says this is a walkout and occupation of the school's South Lawn.

SANCHEZ: We want to talk to Amelia Kimball about what we're witnessing in Austin right now. She's the associate managing editor for the student newspaper there, The Daily Texan. Amelia, describe the situation on the ground and what precipitated it.

AMELIA KIMBALL, ASSOCIATE MANAGING EDITOR, THE DAILY TEXAN: So, before protesters even gathered today, state troopers were on campus. They're in full riot gear. They're on motorcycles and on horseback. We have state troopers, University of Texas police, and Austin police all here. Students gathered in a central area of campus and then were ordered to disperse within two minutes. And then arrests started being made. There have been three arrests made so far. At least one of those confirmed a student. KEILAR: Okay, at least one of them confirmed a student. And so, what else are you seeing happening at this point in time? How are students responding? And were they expecting anything like this?

KIMBALL (voice-over): No, I don't think students were expecting this kind of response. There are no plans to set up an encampment. There was only supposed to be a demonstration and a march. And so, I don't think students were expecting this kind of response. Some students have dispersed. Others are remaining in the crowd. Currently, state troopers in riot gear have formed a blockade. They're holding batons towards students. And there have been some physical struggles between police and students.

SANCHEZ: Amelia, let's step back and give us some context to what things have been like on campus going back to when we started seeing these kinds of demonstrations pop up. What has the climate been like there up until now?

KIMBALL (voice-over): So, there have -there's been, I would say a moderate sized movement in solidarity with Palestine on campus. This is certainly the most significant demonstration we've had so far since October. But there was an interest in demonstrating solidarity with students at Columbia and other universities around the country. And that's why this demonstration was planned.

KEILAR: And just to let our viewers know, again, Amelia, we're looking at live pictures now coming from UT Austin. We see one person there, a man being arrested by state troopers. And Amelia, you said, we can see them. They're there in riot gear. Tell us about, again, how they showed up. What kind of law enforcement interaction there had been prior to this? It sounds like this all developed pretty quickly.

KIMBALL (voice-over): It did. Yeah. So, um, I think the university and the police had had gotten wind of this demonstration being planned, and state troopers were on campus hours prior to the actual beginning of the demonstration, which is-which has not happened at this scale at any of the prior demonstrations we've had in the last few months.

[14:15:09]

And interactions between students and the police have been really tense. Some students did choose to disperse whenever arrests were threatened. And others have stuck with the crowd. And lots have been, or a few at least, have been jostled, pushed, and or arrested by the police.

SANCHEZ: Do you know, Amelia, if there was any communication between the demonstration organizers and the school's administration about their expectations for today? Did the university give any warning as to what response there might be or any parameters for the demonstration?

KIMBALL (voice-over): There was a communication that I got access to that went out to university staff. That the university apparently told the organizers of the event that it was not allowed to proceed. This being, I don't know, sometime last night or this morning. And so I think the university had told demonstrators, not to proceed with the event. And students did anyway. That's all I know about that communication, though.

KEILAR: All right, Amelia, let's listen just for a moment. Amelia, stay with us. Let's just listen into this to hear what is happening there on campus. This is from moments ago in UT Austin. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: Break it up

UNKNOWN: Leave her alone man, leave her alone man

UNKNOWN: Disperse, disperse.

UNKNOWN: Shes not doing anything

UNKNOWN: (SCREAMING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Amelia, as we're listening to this, can you just tell us what we're listening to here? It sounds, we were hearing yells from troopers to disperse. And then it sounds like we're hearing, it was almost like panic yells coming from protesters.

KIMBALL (voice-over): I did just see a few protesters run out of the crowd, one in tears. I don't know exactly what happened. But there does seem to be like some escalating levels of distress. And protesters are continuing to chant. And the police are forming like multiple blockades to keep protesters from moving.

SANCHEZ: Amelia Kimball, thank you so much for bringing us the latest from the University of Texas at Austin. We'll, of course, keep an eye on the situation there. One of many tense scenes playing out across college campuses all over the country following Israel's response to Hamas's deadly attacks on October 7th. We are also closely watching a planned visit by the Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, to the campus of Columbia University later this afternoon to address some of the demonstrations. And specifically the anti-Semitism that we've seen occasionally rise at these demonstrations. We'll, of course, keep an eye on this and come back as soon as we get more details. Stay with CNN News Central.

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[14:20:09]

KEILAR: Breaking news, these are pictures just moments ago from the University of Texas in Austin where you see state troopers and people who were protesting there on campus reaching a bit of a fever pitch compared to what we have seen recently. All this happening here, is their protesting against Israels war in Gaza since the October 7 attacks by Hamas. This is happening amid escalating protests at many college campuses around the country. And in the meantime, just a short time ago, President Biden who was wearing a pin of both the U.S. and the Ukrainian flags signed into law a long awaited foreign aid package. More than half of that money, $61 billion going to Ukraine, going to its war against the Russian invasion.

But $26 billion goes to Israel, $8 billion going to Taiwan in the Indo-Pacific. The senate approving the funding yesterday after the house finally signed off over the weekend. The legislation is for Ukraine, it languished for months in the Republican controlled House amid major opposition from GOP hardliners. Joining us now to talk about this, we have Democratic Senator Chris Coons of Delaware. He is on the foreign relations committee. First before we talk about the aid, I'm just wondering, as you're coming out of UT Austin, I know you've been watching Columbia as well, what do you make of this? Is this reaching a bit of a tipping point. What is the message to the Biden administration especially you know, in the case of Columbia. He's heading to New York tomorrow.

SEN. CHRIS COONS, (D-DE): Brianna, thanks for the chance to be on with you and I am thrilled and relieved that our President has signed into law this critical supplemental aid package and look forward to talking with you about that. I cant see the images that you're referring to on this current setup but I'll take from what I'm hearing from you that there's an unfolding situation at the University of Texas, Austin where there's some confrontation with law enforcement by protestors.

[14:25:09]

Look, students, like all Americans, deserve the right of free speech to express themselves and their concerns, but they also should be doing it in a way that doesn't interfere with other students' ability to attend university, to feel safe in their dorms and on campus. And there's been an alarming rise in anti-Semitism and in aggressive actions against Jewish students on a number of campuses across the country. All of us need to find a better path forward for listening to each other, respecting each other's opinions in Congress, on campuses, and around our country. One of the things I think is a real positive, Brianna, about this bill ultimately passing the Senate with a broad bipartisan vote is that it happened after months of division and difficulty in the House. So, hopefully, the young people who are learning what it means to protest and to be passionate and to be engaged in civic discourse on campuses around our country will also learn how they can do that in a way that respects the rights of others.

KEILAR: Let's talk more about that aid, because you had said recently that you would support restrictions on aid to Israel if they go ahead with a full-scale ground campaign into Rafah without taking into account their obligation to protect civilians and facilitate the distribution of aid. Today an Israeli government spokesperson said, quote, Israel is moving ahead with our operation to target Hamas and Rafah. Do you have any concerns about that, considering there are no conditions on this new aid to Israel?

COONS: So, look, I do have concerns about the idea, were they to go into Rafah at scale and make no accommodation for civilians. I do want to highlight that in this package the President has just signed a $9 billion in humanitarian relief. That's critical for preventing famine in Gaza, as well as for dealing with the emerging famine in Sudan, providing humanitarian assistance in Ukraine, and a dozen other countries around the world, where there is a humanitarian crisis today of remarkable scale, hundreds of millions of people facing hunger or starvation. I do think that the ongoing war in Gaza is going to continue to test and strain relations between the United States and Israel. And I am optimistic that the IDF will ultimately listen to the concerns expressed by many of us in Congress, as well as by our president.

KEILAR: And what will make them listen to those concerns if there isn't any conditions?

COONS: Well, look, at the end of the day, what's going to matter to them more than anything is a stable, secure, reliable relationship with the United States. I'll remind you, just about two weekends ago, Iran directly attacked Israel with hundreds of drones and missiles. And the United States, under President Biden's leadership, helped pull together a coalition that included the Jordanians, the Saudis, the British, the French, to defend Israel against a direct attack from Iran. My hope is that that demonstration of an ongoing support from the United States will do more to persuade Israeli government leadership of the importance of our relationship than anything else.

KEILAR: We are just learning that Israeli-American hostage Hirsch Goldberg Poland appears in a hostage video, which is the first proof that he survived injuries on October 7th from the Hamas attack. He's one of five dual U.S.-Israeli citizens held alive in Gaza, to our knowledge, in addition to the four dead hostages whose bodies are being held. Do you think enough is being done at this point to secure release of American hostages?

COONS: Brianna, seeing that news earlier today was a huge relief. I met with Hirsch's parents, Rachel and John, in Tel Aviv two weeks after the horrific attack by Hamas and saw, they showed me the video of him being thrown into the back of a truck by Hamas terrorists with his severed, bleeding arm. And I've met with them several times, communicated with them many times over the last six months, and I've prayed repeatedly that somehow, Hirsch might have survived, his wounds were significant. And that he has survived, according to this video, is a great blessing. And that his parents have the comfort of knowing that he is alive, particularly during this holy week of Passover, is a great blessing. But it is a reminder of the ongoing psychological terrorism Hamas is carrying out against the loved ones of those they are holding in captivity. I think more needs to be done. The Israeli government did come further forward in the offer that they made to Hamas in recent negotiations.