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Supreme Court to Hear Arguments on Presidential Immunity from Criminal Prosecution for Acts Committed While in Office; Criminal Trial of Former President Trump for Hush Money Payments to Stormy Daniels Continues; Former Trump White House Aide Cassidy Hutchinson Gives Interview on Trump's Behavior as President; Trump Makes Early Morning Campaign Stop Before Criminal Trial Resumes. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired April 25, 2024 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: He went on to tell those students that the relationships that they are able to build will enable the U.S. and China to avoid miscommunication between the two countries in the future. And of course, we'll watch to see how these meetings tomorrow go between him and Chinese officials here in Beijing. Kate?

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Absolutely. It's great to have you there, Kylie, in Beijing. Thank you so much.

And the next hour of CNN NEWS CENTRAL starts right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And the breaking news, CNN's special live coverage of this history defining moment in two courtrooms. Very shortly, the Supreme Court will hear arguments over whether a president has absolute immunity. We're talking, of course, about Donald Trump in the January 6th case. A New York jury will hear arguments for the man who ran "The National Enquirer." He is expected to deliver testimony right out of the gate this morning about efforts to bury stories about Playboy playmates. And this could ultimately get to the issue of what happened with Stormy Daniels.

I'm John Berman with Kate Bolduan this morning. Sara Sidner is out. We have a live look at the U.S. Supreme Court -- not yet. We will have a live look at the U.S. Supreme Court at some point, you can trust me on that. We are standing by for oral arguments at the court about the issue of whether Donald Trump is immune from the actions he took around January 6th. Of course, he is trying to get the election subversion case, the federal election subversion case dropped completely over that issue of presidential immunity.

BOLDUAN: And let's talk about what's going to be happening, what is happening in New York. Donald Trump is not -- well let's talk about this. Donald Trump is not in Washington even though he says he wants to be. He's in New York because he is forced to be today. His historic trial picks back up soon with testimony from the man who bought and buried unflattering stories about him before the 2016 election, David Pecker, we've been talking about. He has not testified yet about the deal specifically with Stormy Daniels, and that likely changes today. We're learning that before the day is out, Stormy Daniels herself could take the stand.

Any minute, we're expecting to see Trump leave Trump Tower for a second time already this morning. You're on probably cup of coffee number one, and Donald Trump has been out and back to his apartment like several times.

CNN's Alayna Treene and Supreme Court analyst Joan Biskupic are standing by with much more at all this for us. Joan, let's start with you. This is the Supreme Court matter, of course, at hand. What can we expect today?

JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SUPREME COURT ANALYST: Sure. Good morning, Kate and John. It's really a historic day with an untested question -- can a former president be completely shielded from criminal prosecution for actions he took while in office? Now, this does come from the Jack Smith charges brought on behalf of the Department of Justice. The United States here alleging fraud, obstruction, denial of the right to vote, things culminating with the January 6th, 2021, attack on the Capitol.

Lower federal court judges rejected Donald Trump's claim of immunity here, saying whatever protection he had from criminal prosecution while in office dissolved once he was out of office. But this is an untested question. The Supreme Court has in the past ruled that a former president can be immune from a civil proceeding, civil damages, but never addressed the weightier situation of a criminal context.

Both Donald Trump and Jack Smith, their lawyers point to history, the Constitution, both saying that it works in their favor. For Donald Trump's side, he says separation of powers. The idea that the three branches are independent of each other means that judges cannot sit in judgment of the former president, whereas Jack Smith argues that there was never any kind of criminal immunity foreseen by the framers of the Constitution. And he points to a more modern day precedent, and that involves former President Richard Nixon who was forced out of office in 1974 because of his actions during the Watergate scandal and his own effort to try to ensure his reelection back in 1972. But in 1974, after he was forced out, then President Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon. And that pardon, Jack Smith argues, was a recognition that Nixon could have been subject to criminal prosecution if he had not been pardoned.

So those are the dueling arguments the justices will hear. But bottom line, this trial of Donald Trump in this particular case has already been postponed since its original March start date because of this detour to the Supreme Court. And we'll probably see a ruling by late June.

Kate, John?

BERMAN: We'll be hanging on every word, every question, the way they ask the questions at the court today.

[08:05:01]

All right, Alayna Treene, to you. Former President Trump and his campaign very, very intent on making a picture this morning before these hearings begin at the various courts. What do they do and why?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: That's exactly right, John. As we know, Donald Trump has been trying to continue campaigning despite having to be required in New York four days out of the week. Donald Trump admitted that today he went and visited the building site for JP Morgan where they're going to be building a new headquarters in New York. He met with some working class voters, construction workers, as well as teamster union members.

And this is really him, despite New York being overwhelmingly having voted for Joe Biden in 2020, this is him trying to salvage some of his campaigning and looking ahead to November, despite all of the legal battles that he is facing.

Now, one really interesting thing just to touch off what Joan was speaking about is that even though Donald Trump is in New York for his criminal hush money case, he's very focused as well on what's going to be happening at the Supreme Court today in Washington. And at one point, while speaking with reporters, he even said he wished he could have been in Washington, D.C., instead, and that the judge was keeping him in New York. Take a listen to how he put it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: We have a big case today. The judges are allowing me to go. We have a big case today, the Supreme Court or presidential immunity. A president has to have immunity. If you don't have, you just have a ceremonial president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: John in Kate, those remarks right there from Donald Trump is something we've heard from him repeatedly, that a president has to have immunity, that he was protected because he was president at the time from his federal indictments.

And look, this is something that is very crucial to Donald Trump's legal battles, particularly in these federal cases. The argument that his attorneys have consistently made and something that I know that Donald Trump has repeatedly complained about in private is that he really does believe that he had immunity because he was president at the time. And this is something that he really is hoping he can continue to drill into voters' minds, that he essentially did nothing wrong because he was immune.

Of course, we're going to hear how that plays out today. And obviously there's a lot of people who argue that a president doesn't have total immunity. He can't just do anything just because he is present. But this is something that Donald Trump is really hoping is successful for him today in Washington.

BERMAN: Right, the issue is were the acts, quote-unquote, presidential? Were they official acts? Were they outside the scope of the presidency? And is a president immune from potentially criminal acts that are outside the scope of the presidency? That's where the law will come down today when the justices hear these arguments. Alayna Treene, thank you very much.

BOLDUAN: If you say it enough, does it make it true?

BERMAN: That's exactly right. The repetition, a president is immune from all things. That's not what's at issue today.

BOLDUAN: Exactly right, exactly right.

There's also this, breaking overnight in Arizona, several of Donald Trump's key allies charged for their efforts to overturn the 2020 election. Talking about Arizona, Trump himself, not charged, yet described as an unindicted coconspirator number one. Trump's former chief of staff is among those indicted in Arizona. And CNN spoke one- on-one with former White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson about the new charges against her old boss and why she believes he has critical information about every Trump investigation.

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[08:13:04]

BERMAN: All right, welcome back to CNN's special live coverage of this truly remarkable day. Oral arguments set to begin very shortly at the Supreme Court on the issue of whether Donald Trump should be immune from prosecution over January 6th, whether presidents have immunity from criminal prosecution over acts that may be outside the scope of their official duties.

And of course, here in New York City, you're looking at live pictures at Trump Tower. Donald Trump expected to leave there shortly. Testimony resumes there shortly from David Pecker, the man who ran "The National Enquirer." When we last heard from him, it was really a cliff hanger. He had just begun talking about Karen McDougal, the former Playboy playmate, and his efforts to bury stories about her. This gets into a very important subject areas about what Donald Trump did and how he did it to keep stories from going public, and he could testify about Stormy Daniels later as well.

There is more news, though. Breaking overnight, new charges in Arizona against several of Donald Trump's closest associates who were trying to overthrow the election results there. Former chief of staff Mark Meadows is among those charged. Now remember, Cassidy Hutchinson worked for Mark Meadows, and she spoke to CNN overnight.

CNN senior crime and justice reporter Katelyn Polantz has the latest on that front. Hard to keep up with it all, Katelyn.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Yes, John, Cassidy Hutchinson is not likely to be a witness in this New York hush money trial, but she is someone who had a front row seat to the Trump presidency. She was in the White House. She's someone who was very loyal to Donald Trump at the time it before becoming a key witness related to what happened during the 2020 election that led to other criminal charges against Donald Trump that he is still facing.

And just now, she is reflecting on not just who Donald Trump was as a president but who he is as a person. Here's more of what she told Kaitlan Collins on CNN's air last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[08:15:00]

CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE AIDE: The character of the individual matters far more than any policy that they may or may not implement.

Donald Trump's character has been evident for a very long time, but he has had a team of people around him who have really isolated him in this false identity of a strongman and somebody that truly believes that they want the best for the American people.

That's what he -- his action show those is he is not for the American people, he is for himself. He is willing to go to whatever ends necessary to make sure that he is not put in prison like he is currently facing and that the American people don't know the truth about him.

It is important that the Supreme Court acknowledges that he does not get to evade consequences and accountability for this, but it is also really important that we hold him accountable in the court of public opinion as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

POLANTZ: So John, there she is calling for the Supreme Court to make quick work of this presidential immunity case against Donald Trump and send him on to trial.

Another thing that she points out is that she believes that many people around Donald Trump have been complicit in their silence and that it has become apparent to her, that there are consequences when you split from Donald Trump's bubble, his world, his White House, but there are also consequences for staying in that bubble -- John.

BERMAN: All right, Katelyn Polantz for us. Katelyn, great to see you this morning.

BOLDUAN: Let's talk about -- well, all of it and more.

Joining us right now, CNN senior political commentators, former special assistant to President George W. Bush, Scott Jennings, and former senior adviser to President Obama, David Axelrod.

So today we have this image, right? We have three major legal headlines, all having to do with Donald Trump and this is perfectly timed with a piece that you have really just written Ax about the impact of all of this and what it could be having on Donald Trump.

The piece for "The Atlantic" is headlined what Donald Trump fears most, a potential reckoning that he has spent a lifetime alluding could be coming. And when you look at Donald Trump in two courtrooms today, essentially, that really spotlights exactly this.

What are you getting out in this piece?

DAVID AXELROD, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, if you look at the history of the man, his father told him there are two kinds of people in the world. There are killers and there are losers, and the meaning of that was that the strong take what they want, the weak fall away.

Rules and laws and norms and institutions, those are for suckers. They don't apply and you go and you take what you want and he has lived his life that way and he has gone very, very far with that.

Now, he sits in a courtroom in the criminal court building in New York, and he is subject to the control all of the court, he has to sit silently.

A man who offers himself as peerless is forced to sit there and wait for a jury of his peers to render a judgment about him and listen to really, really difficult testimony and I think that you can see that it is wearing on him, that he doesn't like to be confined in that way. He doesn't like someone else to have control, but at the end of the day, what matters most is what happens and there is some mystery as to what happens at the end of this process.

If he is a convicted felon, that's going to have material impact on him moving forward. If he should have a hung jury, which could happen, it could have the reverse effect and it could be the beginning of his way out of this legal morass that he is in because he will use it to taint all of the other cases.

And so this is a very portentous moment for Donald Trump.

BERMAN: Yes, and the question is how he is handling it on a day-to- day basis. And Ax, I think you pointed out one thing that a lot of observers have noticed had they been watching this trial in New York progress, whether you agree with the charges or not, whether you think the trial is going well for him or badly for him, but you said, "The weariness and vulnerability captured in those courtroom images portray a growing recognition that he could wind up as the thing his old man most reviled, a convicted criminal, no worse a loser."

And Scott to you, just on the day-to-day here and Ax, you know, recognizes, Scott, is this the look, is this a look that Donald Trump, you think enjoys and is good for him politically?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, no, I mean, he certainly would rather not be in a courtroom. He'd rather be out campaigning and looking like a strong and vigorous presidential candidate.

As Ax points out, he doesn't have that luxury right now because he is confined in a courtroom. They are doing what they can, you know, you had a little rally with workers in New York City this morning and they know they are pumping out those images to make it look like he is out there doing what he can to campaign.

[08:20:00]

It must be incredibly jarring for him to not be in control of his own schedule. I mean, I think this is a guy who prides himself on freedom of mobility and freedom of saying whatever he wants and in both cases, his movements and his speech are somewhat being restricted.

I do think that a lot of people are considering what would happen to him if he is convicted and salivating about that, but not as many people are thinking about what Ax just pointed out, the possibility that he is not convicted here, and what that could also mean for his campaign and what it could also mean for him to be able to spend what may happen to him in the future regarding these other cases.

I don't know what's going to happen here, but certainly there are a couple of roads out of this. One of them looks very bad and one of them looks like it could be the beginning of a comeback story. If you think the campaign is really nothing more than him just fighting off these legal charges.

BERMAN: Sure, and we will find out. Just one thing I want to point out, we are looking at pictures before of Donald Trump out this morning at this construction site.

BOLDUAN: I mean, let's talk more about this.

BERMAN: Yes, because I think to me, it reads as an admission to what Ax and Scott are saying here, which is that the Trump campaign knowledge is that the look hasn't been good up until now.

So what do you do? You go make a picture this morning.

BOLDUAN: Because, I mean, Ax, I need to lean on your astute political expertise here. Is New York a battleground state?

AXELROD: No.

BOLDUAN: Exactly. Why is he here this morning? But that's exactly what my point is, is that he had to make a campaign just a moment, if you will and it really was just a moment.

It was like five handshakes, then he came to talk to reporters and then Ax let me get your take, but let me play what he faced in terms of questions from reporters when he went to speak with them at this little campaign moment. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have a big case today. This judge isn't allowing me to go. We have a big case today in the Supreme Court on presidential immunity.

A president has to have immunity. If you don't have immunity, you just have a ceremonial president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Facing questions about everything he is facing today. Go ahead, Ax. I interrupted you.

AXELROD: Well, I just want to make a slightly different point about him and what he has been doing and what he has been saying.

You know, one of the hallmarks of Trump is that he pre-spins potential losses. So months before the presidential election, 2020, he was telling people that it might be stolen. Now, he is trying to pre-spin this trial and this judge is trying to contain him in that and with this gag order.

Now, good luck with that, because he knows they are not going to put him in jail. The fines are sort of de minimis and he doesn't seem to worry much about that. What he is really interested in doing is telling his counter story about the judge, about the jury, the New York Democratic jury, about the prosecutor.

So that if this thing goes bad, that he has pre -- he has prepared the public for his interpretation of events.

So you know, this is -- I mean, I don't think anybody would say, hey when we make ourselves a defendant in a criminal trial leading up to the Republican convention, that would be a great run-up, we will get a lot of attention.

But I think, he is trying to make the best of what is a terrible situation here by setting up the kind of thing that we saw before the 2020 election and his supporters will buy it.

The question is, are the people who are on the bubble, those folks who voted for Nikki Haley in Pennsylvania the other day, for example will they buy it? Are they comfortable if he is a convicted felon? And are they comfortable with a spectacle that is growing up around him?

I think it is -- he is in a tough spot.

BOLDUAN: That's a big TBD on that.

BERMAN: I didn't want -- if you add more, I didn't want to --

BOLDUAN: But wait, there is more. I want to hear from you.

BERMAN: Well, so Scott, while this is happening and I know that you've been thinking about this because you've been writing about it, there has been like actual bipartisan movement on issues that are important to people.

What is the contrast that you think that voters could see between Donald Trump and his hush money trial and big things happening like major bipartisan international aid package that is being passed?

JENNINGS: Well, I did write a piece for cnn.com this week about John Fetterman and Speaker Mike Johnson, and how I think they are actually two very different guys, but they are both doing the same thing right now and that is, they are leading our politics away from the dysfunctional fringe and back towards a pretty broad middle.

And there is a wide middle in this country and it contains a lot of different viewpoints, but what the hallmark of the middle is, is functionality.

And I wrote about how that we had some bipartisanship, but more than that, some functionality breakout in Congress. And I think that's something that the American people want to see. And I think a lot of voters look at this race between Donald Trump and Joe Biden. They don't love their choices.

[08:25:03]

They see a lot of the old arguments and a lot of relitigating of the past in it, then they look at people like Fetterman and Johnson over the weekend, and what Fetterman has been doing on Israel and they say, this is actually the kind of politics that I really want.

People who are looking to advance the ball and people who are willing to butt the fringe of their own party, if it means having some functionality, so I do think the split-screen of all this is interesting and Ax brought up this people in the middle in this country, the Independents, the suburban voters that people fight over.

I do think they are watching all of this and they are considering what kind of politics do we want to have and who will stand for a sort of a functional middle? We don't always agree on everything, but the ball advances when it can. That's what we've got in the foreign aid vote, which was overwhelming in both chambers and overwhelmingly bipartisan.

And I think people may doubt that when they look at the two candidates for president right now. One of them needs to grab that message though and run with it. I am not sure either has done that effectively yet.

BOLDUAN: Functionality --

BERMAN: Dysfunction bad, I am told.

BOLDUAN: Dysfunction, bad. Functionality is now the aspirational bumper sticker for 2024.

It is good to see you, guys.

AXELROD: I am so excited for Scott.

BOLDUAN: Tell us why. Wait. No, no, no. This is important.

AXELROD: We are done, huh?

BOLDUAN: No, no why are you excited for Scott?

AXELROD: Yes, first of all, I think Speaker Johnson deserves great credit for putting those bills on the floor. I was just thrilled as Scott with the outcome of that vote. I don't know -- I mean, he has been so thirsty as a regular Republican for regular order and for normalcy and for functionality, so I understand his feelings right now.

I need to see more evidence that this is a continuing thing. More than half the Republicans voted against that aid for Ukraine. Why? Because they feared Donald Trump and they feared the base. That problem still exists.

So I don't know this may be a watershed event or just may be a passage and then we return to politics as usual, and we shall see.

BERMAN: David Axelrod, Scott Jennings, thanks to both you. Great to see you. Dysfunction, bad.

BOLDUAN: But all movements start with a spark of a little functionality.

BERMAN: That's right.

Breaking overnight Donald Trump's former White House chief-of-staff and a former attorney indicted in Arizona, 18 of his allies charged there. He is co-conspirator number one in this.

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