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Former "National Enquirer" Publisher David Pecker Cross- Examined by Donald Trump's Defense Team in Hush Money Criminal Trial; Donald Trump Suggests He May Not Take Stand in His Own Defense in Criminal Trial; Donald Trump's Presidential Campaigning Restricted by Requirement He Attend Court for Criminal Trial; Americans Divided on Fairness of Trump Prosecutions; College Protests Spread Amid Clashes with Police, More Arrest. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired April 26, 2024 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So the law there quite different from the law, or different from the law in New York, or maybe not so narrow. But still, it is something that he is going to use first.

MISTY MARRIS, TRIAL ATTORNEY: It's a viable challenge in California as well.

SIDNER: OK, I want to ask you something, this twist that was brought up first by reporter and author Ronan Farrow who has done extensive reporting and wrote a book on how Harvey Weinstein operated. He argues that this appellate case could actually have some impact on Donald Trump's case. How?

MARRIS: Sara, it's the first thing I thought of because we're covering Trump gavel to gavel. Keep in mind, we just heard a Sandoval hearing in Donald Trump's case. There's two things that this is directly impactful to Donald Trump's case. First, prior bad acts evidence coming into the courtroom. The second, the appellate court's finding that Harvey Weinstein basically could not testify because so much was going to be allowed in on cross-examination. The same type of argument would apply to Donald Trump. At the Sandoval hearing, that's where prosecutors are told by the judge what can come in if Donald Trump were to testify. They opened up the gates, the judge, to the E. Jean Carroll case, to the New York state attorney general civil fraud case. Because of that, Donald Trump will have a similar argument that he's hamstrung. He couldn't possibly testify because of everything that's going to come in on cross-examination. It's directly related to the appellate decision that we just heard today.

SIDNER: Did not see that twist coming. Misty Marris, thank you so much. It's always a pleasure. Appreciate it.

MARRIS: Thank you.

SIDNER: Next hour of CNN NEWS CENTRAL starts right now. KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Only if necessary, Donald Trump changing

his tune on whether he will testify today. Today, David Pecker will be back on the stand and for more critical testimony. What else will he reveal now under cross-examination?

Also, in New York this morning, President Biden campaigning while Trump is in court. Biden throwing shade at Trump's legal woes, saying he's been busy on the trail while Trump has been on trial.

Plus, university unrest, professors arrested, students clashing with police. And now one university is canceling its main graduation ceremony because of the pro-Palestinian protests engulfing campuses coast to coast.

I'm Kate Bolduan with Sara Sidner and John Berman. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SIDNER: All right, happening right now, live look for you outside Trump Tower where we are standing by to see and potentially here from Donald Trump as he soon makes his way back to court. The former president's historic criminal trial resumes today with the man who ran "The National Enquirer," the publisher, David Pecker, back on the stand for cross-examination. What else could he reveal today about the hush money deal with Stormy Daniels? We're also standing by to learn who will testify next and whether or not the judge will find Trump violated his gag order and hold him in contempt. Another gag order hearing is now set for new alleged violations.

CNN's Brynn Gingras is live outside court for us this morning. Brynn, as we're watching for Donald Trump to just leave Trump Tower and get down to the court, can you let us know sort of how soon court resumes, and whether or not we're ever going to get an answer to this gag order rule, because it has been sitting there now for a few days?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, listen, we went into court yesterday wondering if the judge was going to rule. Certainly, that's something that's usually addressed when courts starts, so we'll have to see when it gets started today. But we know that we have that next goalpost, right, about those new those new allegations from the prosecution, and that is for next Thursday. So it's certainly not going away, we know that, Sarah.

But look, as soon as court begins, I am really going to be looking for the rapid fire questioning that we saw from the cross-examination yesterday. There was not long of it before court broke for the day, but I've got to tell you, reporters in the courtroom had a magic fingers because the defense was really firing off questions to David Pecker, essentially getting him to admit that buying and burying stories was really common practice for "The National Enquirer," that they actually did this for lots of celebrities, and for the fact that they were alerting Donald Trump to stories about him more than a decade before the presidential election.

So that's a lot for the jury to take in. And it really nipped away at the prosecution's case, which was a strong case, basically laying out for several hours over the last several days for jurors how David Pecker, really the intricacies of these catch-and-kill stories, how he bought and buried two prior stories before the Stormy Daniels story came about, and essentially he says, I'm not a bank, and then he found out later on that Michael Cohen actually paid for that story to go away before the 2016 election. Of course, that is a story that is at the heart of these charges against Donald Trump.

So we'll see if that was effective in the defense's strategy of distancing Donald Trump from the charges that are against him when it comes to at least David Pecker as a witness. But he'll be back on the stand when court resumes today.

[08:05:07]

SIDNER: So David Pecker will be back on the stand. He will be continuing with cross-examination. You are expecting, though, the prosecution to redirect after that, correct?

GINGRAS: Absolutely. Yes, of course, they get that option before we even maybe see who the next witness is, redirect. It's very unclear, actually, if David Pecker will finish today. I mean, it is a full court today, so it's very likely he will, but we don't really quite know the timing just yet. But we are waiting to see, like you said, Sarah, who is the next witness. Is it someone who deals with the accounting inside AMI or within the Trump Organization, or is it Michael Cohen, another quite arguably the star witness for the prosecution. So we'll have to wait and see. Of course, we don't know because they are not giving away that witness list, or rather the order of that witness list ahead of time because of the fear that Donald Trump will post about them on social media and such. So we'll stand by.

SIDNER: All right, Brynn Gingras standing by for court to resume. Appreciate it.

John?

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, it will be an interesting morning. And in the meantime, Donald Trump is walking down that well-worn path of his, suggesting maybe he will testify in his own defense. This time he says he'll do it if necessary. CNN's Alayna Treene is with us this morning. Any reporting on what his actual intentions here are, Alayna, or is this more of the drama building that he engages in?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Yes, we are feeling a bit of that, will he or won't he testify. But look, John, I mean, this is something Donald Trump has done repeatedly in the past. He almost always says, whenever he's facing legal challenges or a trial, saying, I want to testify, I want to be there to defend myself. And that's really, when you get to the heart of who Donald Trump is, he thinks he is his own best defender, and that's where a lot of this is coming from.

However, last night he did change his tune a bit on this question, whereas a couple of weeks ago he was saying, yes, I plan to testify. Yes, I want to testify. In an interview last night, he said, well, we'll see if it's necessary. Take a listen to how he put it. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Well, I would if it's necessary. Right now, I don't know if you heard about today. Today was just incredible. People are saying, the experts, I'm talking about legal scholars and experts, they're saying what kind of a cases is this? There is no case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: Now, John, I do just want to point out some context here. At one point in that interview, he did say this is no case. I think that's the defense he's going to be using for not taking the stand, that look, it doesn't even matter. This isn't a good case. I don't need to take the stand.

However, again, this is a tactic he has used before saying he wants to testify only to have discussions with his lawyers who ultimately convinced them testifying isn't a good move here. And I think all of the legal experts I've been talking too lawyers involved in this are saying, look, you never really want someone to take the stand in this case. It's more likely this could hurt the former president than it could help them. And so that's where some of this is coming from.

BERMAN: Donald Trump was golfing this past Wednesday as he's been campaigning, complaining that he can't get out on the campaign trail. What are his golfing/campaign plans in the days and weeks ahead?

TREENE: Right. Well, you're right, on Wednesday, he was at his Bedminster golf club golfing, and this weekend he's going to be at Mar-a-Lago back in Florida celebrating Melania Trump's birthday. However, next week we are really seeing him get back onto the campaign trail. He's going to make two visits, one to Michigan, one to Wisconsin. Of course, John, two vary the crucial battlegrounds in 2024. Trump won these states in 2016, lost them to Joe Biden in 2020. And I know from my conversations with his advisers that these are very critical to winning the election come November.

But look, it is a bit weird to see how this has been shaking out for them. I know that in my conversations with his team they recognize that this has been a hard juggling act. It's been challenging to have him in court four days required a week, and then trying to use the other three days to campaign. We haven't seen much of that so far. He was supposed to have a rally last weekend in North Carolina. They ended up having to cancel that last minute because of storm weather. But apart from that, he hasn't been used using those days, really, to get out there.

So we're going to see this happen Wednesday. I do think they're going to try to do more of this and really try to maximize his ability to be on the trail while also being stuck in court. John?

BERMAN: Alayna Treene, great to see you this morning. Thank you so much.

Kate? BOLDUAN: So he faces four criminal cases. Why and what has happened leaving smart minds, though, to say now it's looking more likely the hush money case will be the only trial that Donald Trump faces before the November election.

And crisis on campuses across lets the country. Pro-Palestinian protests growing, schools are struggling to contain -- to keep them contained. And now one school is canceling part of its graduation because of it.

[08:10:00]

Plus, fire crews and southern California, they are fighting to save a landmark engulfed in flames.

We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: So you have a new look at the real impact Trump's trials are having on how Americans feel about him, and also how they feel potentially about their vote. A new CNN poll shows Americans are sharply divided over how they view the criminal prosecution of Donald Trump.

[08:15:00]

The poll found just 13 percent said Trump is being treated the same as any other criminal defendant, but when you look inside that number, it is interesting. Most -- they are divided over whether he is being treated more harshly or more leniently than other criminal defendants.

The same poll finds that less than half are confident that a jury will reach a fair verdict.

What happens if he is convicted of a crime? Among Trump supporters, the result is also quite interesting. The poll finds the vast majority would support Trump regardless, but 24 percent of Trump supporters say that it may cause them to reconsider their support of the former president.

Joining us right now is a former deputy White House press secretary under Donald Trump, Sarah Mathews. She resigned her position right after January 6th.

It is good to have you here again, Sarah.

So this rising share of Americans say also in this poll that the charges in the ongoing trial, they are irrelevant to his fitness for the presidency even if the charges are true, though a majority says that it still is relevant, but a rising number says that it is irrelevant.

What do you think? Why do you think that is?

SARAH MATHEWS, FORMER DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY UNDER DONALD TRUMP: I think it is because when we look at the nature of this case and the charges he is facing, they are not as severe maybe as the other cases that he is facing later on down the road, and that is what is really unfortunate about this hush money payment case being the first one where he received an indictment, and now the first one to go to trial and likely maybe the only trial we are going to get before the 2024 election.

Because I think this case, this is something that Americans have been aware of. Most Americans have heard the story about Stormy Daniels and it has already been kind of litigated in the court of public opinion, and they have made up their mind where they stand on Donald Trump and his character.

Whereas the other cases that he is facing, those are cases that strike at the heart of our democracy, the charges he is facing are much more aggressive and severe, and so I think that when you're looking at these cases, it is not necessarily surprising then that this is where Americans are at in their opinion and polling on it.

BOLDUAN: Let's talk about the data on the impact of Trump among Trump supporters if he is convicted. I mentioned it right before I brought you in.

So, it is about three-quarters voters that are currently backing Donald Trump against Biden say that they will stick with him no matter -- you know, regardless, you see there, 76 percent.

But then, there is that 24 percent of Trump backers that say a conviction might have them reconsidering their support. Yes, 24 is nowhere near 76, but when you're talking about, it could be a margin election between Donald Trump and Joe Biden, if they would go to Joe Biden, that could be very significant. Does that surprise you?

MATTHEWS: I think it doesn't surprise me because I think it tracks what we have been seeing in the primary so far, and I would say that that 24 percent are those Nikki Haley voters, and we just saw in Pennsylvania these folks, I think there is 155,000 people who cast their vote for Nikki Haley in Pennsylvania in the primary and I believe that that is tracking then with that polling where were seeing, those are the folks who would be probably on the fence about Trump and then if a conviction came down, that might sway them to not support him.

I am not saying they are going to go vote for Joe Biden, but they might leave the top of their ballot blank then.

BOLDUAN: Donald Trump talks outside of court often, criticizing the case and also complaining that it is taking him off the campaign trail.

Let me play this for you, Sarah.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is what took me off and takes me off the campaign trail because I should be in Georgia now. I should be in Florida now. I should be in a lot of different places right now campaigning and I am sitting here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: We haven't really seen him take the opportunity to campaign when he is not. I mean, he has Wednesdays and weekends to campaign, weather, complicated things this past weekend.

But CNN has also reported that Trump went golfing this past Wednesday. We haven't seen him kind of barnstorming the country on his days off.

Why do you think that that?

MATTHEWS: Yes, I found it quite ironic that he is complaining that he can't be out on the campaign trail and then the one day off he had this week, he spent golfing at Bedminster.

And I think that it kind of tracks with this pattern we've seen from Trump, where back when I was working for him, I thought of him almost as like the Energizer bunny. He had just this endless amount of energy and would hold multiple rallies a day, and I think we've seen as time has gone on, and he has gotten older, he doesn't quite seem to have the same kind of pep in his step.

But I would imagine though, as we get closer to the election, that will change. I don't think it is going to be the same level of campaigning that we saw from him in 2020, but I do think that we are going to see him out there a little bit more frequently.

Right now, the campaign has been obviously saying that they are utilizing all media coverage from the trial to their advantage, and kind of campaigning from the courtroom, if you will.

But at the same time, I am not sure if several weeks of Trump being outside the courtroom just complaining about how cold the air conditioning is and how he has to sit up straight for several hours is necessarily a really strong campaign message.

[08:20:20]

BOLDUAN: We are hearing from our -- some of our correspondents that the campaign does have events planned for next week, but everything you're saying, it totally makes sense and is very good point.

It is good to see you, Sarah. Thank you very much -- Sara.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, there are a lot of Sara's here today.

Ahead, more of pro-Palestinian protests and violent arrests on college campuses across the country over the war in Gaza. Now, one university is canceling its main stage graduation ceremony over security.

And beyond the call of duty, how officers coordinated to save lives in that awful Baltimore bridge collapse.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [08:25:17]

SIDNER: This morning, the unrest and turmoil on college campuses over Israel's war in Gaza is spreading across the world. Happening right now in France, students are carrying out a pro-Palestinian blockade in the main campus building of a university in Central Paris. They have also put up a barricade blocking police access to the street, and you see the number of people there.

In the US, at Ohio State University, a peaceful protest turned violent between students and police after the students refused orders to disperse. There have been multiple arrest on that campus.

And another scene at Emory University in Georgia, where 28 people were arrested yesterday including two professors. Some Georgia lawmakers say police used excessive force on protesters there deploying pepper balls and even stun guns.

I am joined now by Madi Olivier, she is a student at Emory and also the editor-in-chief of "The Emory Wheel."

Thank you so much for talking to us today.

First, can you give us a sense of what the scene as on-campus after those 28 arrests yesterday.

MADI OLIVIER, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "THE EMORY WHEEL"" Yes, so I can say that I haven't been in campus today, but I know that I've heard a lot about students are still planning on protesting and still going back to the quad.

I know last evening, I was there until around 9:00 PM because people were protesting on the quad. No one got arrested that time. They surrendered peacefully on their own, but I think it hasn't dissuaded anyone. People are still definitely protesting, still feeling really strong in their beliefs for Palestine.

SIDNER: So you are expecting more protests today on campus and for people to return.

I want to talk to you about what happened yesterday. State Police said that the protesters were throwing bottles and refused to leave, but a group of Democratic Georgia State lawmakers on Thursday condemned what they called excessive force used by Georgia State Patrol during arrests at Emory University.

You are on the ground there. What are you hearing from students about the reality of what went down there?

OLIVIER: I know the majority of students that I have heard speak about it have agreed that it was excessive force and I have been saying that it was a peaceful protest.

I was not actually in the protest, I was on the sidelines, so I can't say for sure what happened. I didn't see anybody throwing anything, but again, I wasn't there. Right now, most people seem to think it was definitely excessive force

on campus.

SIDNER: Let me ask you about the two professors here. I want to give you and show the audience the moment that an Economics professor was arrested and detained by police. Take a look.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)

SIDNER: So, that first-person who was thrown to the ground. Do you know what led up to the Economics professor or there was also a Philosophy Chair who was also arrested. Do you have any information on what happened there?

OLIVIER: I am not sure. We actually accessed the DeKalb County's or the jail's arrested records, and we weren't able to confirm anything with the Economics professor.

All we know is that we did see that the Philosophy Chair Noelle McAfee was arrested, but I am not sure what led up to it.

I think they are claiming it was assault against a police officer, but I didn't see anything occur, so I am not sure. I know I've heard people say that they also didn't see anything occur.

SIDNER: Okay. What is it that students are demanding and sort of what has happened on campus to have the university call in police in the first place?

OLIVIER: Students are demanding for a free Palestine in general and for Emory to divest from Israel or cut all ties from Israel.

And I know that Emory is -- the university president and the police chief had a statement saying that the reason the police were called was because the majority of the protesters were allegedly not affiliated with Emory and they were trespassing on campus, so they called police whenever -- they warned the protesters if you don't leave, then this accounts to trespassing and they still didn't leave. So that's what the university is claiming happened.

SIDNER: Do you have any sense if that's true that most of the people there were from outside of the campus?

OLIVIER: I cannot say for sure if most people were from in or outside campus. I did see a lot of students. I don't know if like the majority, but I can say that out of the 28 arrests, 20 of them are affiliated with Emory, so at least the majority of those arrested were members of the Emory community.

SIDNER: That gives you a good sense of who was there.

I do want to ask you about this other bit that happened on another campus, the University of Southern California has just announced that they are going to cancel the main stage ceremonies for graduation because they don't feel like they can secure the campus enough. Is there any concern that that may happen here? And I ask that because

these students that will be graduating, that will be walking did not get to walk on their high school graduations because of COVID. Has anyone been talking about that there?

[08:30:25]