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Police Confront Protesters At University Of Texas Austin; Police Arrest Protesters At University Of Texas At Austin. Aired 2:30- 3p ET

Aired April 29, 2024 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:33:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Also breaking right now, protests are growing on the University of Texas at Austin campus.

CNN's Ed Lavandera is there.

Ed, tell us what is happening there behind you?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, here in just the last few minutes, Brianna, things have completely escalated. You see the protesters here behind me. But now we have nearly 50 state troopers that have shown up.

They have given a dispersal order. And we understand that these troopers are about to move through the South Mall area to move the protesters that have set up an encampment, at least a small encampment, we should say, on what is the South Mall of the U.T. campus.

So we understand that here perhaps in just a matter of moments, if these students are these protesters do not disperse that they are going to be coming through here to clear this area out.

This took place here within the last hour or so. There had been what had been described as an educational event that was taking place here on the grounds. And just suddenly, the protesters gathered up the tables.

And certainly, now they're describing this as a liberated zone, locking arms and keeping anybody from going inside where they have set up a number of tents.

University officials have been clear that they were not going to let, allow any kind of encampment take place here on the campus. So they had been telling the groups and the protesters that this kind of -- these kinds of protests would not be allowed.

And here within the hour of this happening, we saw a number of police officers showing up. They had been keeping their distance for a while, Brianna. But here in the last few minutes, this group of state troopers in riot

gear, face masks, head coverings, that sort of thing, have now shown up here on campus.

There has been another official who has been giving them dispersal orders and time to disperse. But clearly, this is a group of protesters, albeit small, but are not going anywhere at this point.

And inside that circle where the protesters are locking arms, there are a number of tents that had been set up.

[14:35:01]

There has also been a university-wide cell phone alert that has gone -- gone out to the entire campus, the entire student body, saying that these protests are in violation of university rules. And that if they do not disperse, they will be arrested and taken in for disorderly conduct.

So this is the scene that we're watching unfold here, as essentially it is a standoff at this part with crowds gathering. You can see just beyond the state troopers, the University officials have set up barricades, not allowing other people and the public to get down into this area.

And there's just a number of onlookers waiting to see how this is going to unfold and what's going to happen here in the coming minutes -- Brianna?

KEILAR: All right. And we'll be certainly watching, especially after what happened last week, as it was quite an escalated situation with dozens of arrests.

Ed, standby for us, if you would. Thank you.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN HOST: I want to bring in CNN presidential historian, Tim Naftali, who, in addition to being a historian, is also an adjunct professor at Columbia University, where, of course, we've seen all of these protests unfolding.

Tim, in terms of the impact that protests can have, which, of course, we've seen for years in the United States, it's almost a tradition on college campuses, what kind of impact can they have in terms of bringing about policy changes both at the campus and university level as well as at the national level?

TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, we're living in an era of demonstrations. It's not -- they're not simply just student demonstrations. We have witnessed in the pandemic, pandemic era, if you will, we've seen demonstrations.

We've seen demonstrations regarding Black Lives Matter, in support of Black Lives Matter after George Floyd's murder. For another generation, there's a memory of the Occupy Wall Street demonstrations.

So it's not simply a matter of high tensions and political controversy on our campuses. There have been a lot of demonstrations.

And so what we have to come to terms with now is that part of our political culture, at the moment, is expressing oneself in dramatic terms. And students are reflecting, they are maybe at the front line of this.

But they're not the only ones who are expressing themselves strongly. So we're seeing it now on campuses.

And what is -- what is healthy about this, of course, is the ability in our country, as opposed to Iran and other countries, to express oneself and express one's disappointment and moral outrage.

The challenge, however, is that the expression, the expression of these ideas can create unsafe spaces. And on college campuses, administrators are having a difficult time balancing free speech and security and the right to go to class and the right to take exams.

And today is a tough day, because the administration of Columbia drew a red line, and the students, as I noticed when I was walking around the campus, they voted to cross that red line.

And I think the university faces now a very difficult decision. Perhaps the university even regrets the fact that it drew a red line when it should have anticipated that the students and the protesters would cross it.

KEILAR: Yes, that is a lot. If they are going to suspend all of those students, we can just see from these pictures that were looking at here from Columbia University, how many students potentially we're talking about that could be suspended because of this.

I also -- Tim, there's this balancing that these campus communities are doing between free speech and between campus safety. Specifically, we've heard from so many Jewish students who do not feel safe.

Then on the flip side, we have to look back in history. So let's do that as well, because, as we've heard -- and specifically, it's really some Republicans calling potentially or actually for the National Guard to get involved, for this to even be more than outside law enforcement, but to really escalate this.

There are some comparisons or concerns that require us to look back at the Kent State University massacre in 1970, which was a huge moment when it came to the Vietnam war and opinion about it. Four students killed after the Ohio National Guard came in there.

How are you reflecting on that amid this debate?

NAFTALI: Well, I feel an emotional connection to that Kent -- to Kent State, not -- not because I really remember it happening, but a colleague of mine --

(CROSSTALK)

KEILAR: Tim, I'm so sorry. I'm going to have to interrupt you. Tim, I'm so sorry, I have to interrupt you.

We're going back to Ed Lavandera, who's at the University of Texas at Austin.

[14:40:04]

Ed, I hope you can hear me.

We see that there is law enforcement that appears to have moved closer there to protesters on the South Mall at the campus. This follows quite an escalatory interaction between law enforcement of protesters last week.

Ed, what are you seeing?

LAVANDERA: Well, Brianna, state troopers have now encircled the small encampment inside the -- inside the South Mall of the University of Texas campus?

This is being inside -- inside here where the students have set up a little more. And we see the state troopers have come in an encircled -- encircled the encampment.

So what happens next is not clear. (INAUDIBLE) the protesters. (INAUDIBLE) The officers who say from troopers to get off the campus. But it is clear here in the last 30 minutes or so that law enforcement has been trying to figure out the plan to disperse this crowd from the situation.

Obviously, this hearkens back to what took place here on the University of Texas campus last Wednesday when more than 60 people were arrested in a very intense and very violent situation.

So this is the situation unfolding. We state troopers, and then local police circling the state troopers with their bicycles here at the scene. We're looking, trying to move our way around as much as we can.

So here you see from anywhere around on either side of the circle or any of the troopers or the officers are making their way to make any arrests at this point. But right now, is just another standoff.

The troopers have moved from about 20 to 30 yards away and encircled this encampment. You see the protesters inside. They're actually using the tables that were set up here on the South Mall for much of the morning as they were making memes, posters and that sort of thing. They're having poetry readings.

And then, all of a sudden, these tables were picked up and used as a barricade to keep people from entering this small little area where a number of tents had been set up.

Obviously, while the footprint of this is not incredibly significant, but obviously a symbolic situation here, as these protesters and this group has been told for days now that this kind of protest would not be allowed on the University of Texas campus. And that is why University officials say they called in the state

troopers and Department of Public Safety last week to prevent any kind of long-term encampment here on the grounds of the university.

And obviously, this area of this campus is extremely significant because this is the area where the coming of the university-wide commencement will be held. So this is one of the most prominent spots on this university campus.

But right now, as we continue to see the standoff, you see police officers encircling the state troopers with the bicycles to keep the crowd that is not inside this encampment away from these protesters.

Protesters chanting at the troopers to get off our campus. Obviously, they're not going anywhere. And this is the situation that we will have to see how it unfolds.

It became very tense, often violent last week, with the number of a lot of shoving and pushing and more than 60 people arrested last week for disorderly conduct. Those misdemeanor criminal charges have been dropped by the county attorney.

But the -- and the group that had originally organized all of this, Brianna, has been temporarily suspended on an Aaron basis (ph). So obviously, that is a situation that also angered many of the people who were in these student organizations as well.

But obviously, that is going to -- I would imagine that -- that the interim status could -- could be changed here in the coming weeks and days.

So almost beside the point at this moment, as we continue here, Brianna, to watch this standoff kind of unfold here as we wait to see exactly how state troopers are going to handle and clear out this group from the South Mall in the University of Texas.

MARQUARDT: Hey, Ed, it's Alex.

I wanted -- do you have a sense of whether the state troopers or the police have given some kind of warning, any indication of what they're preparing to do?

Clearly, as you say, they're looking to isolate those protesters there and essentially surround them.

And those state troopers -- state troopers certainly look like they are at the ready. And we have seen some violence from them in the past. They have those riot helmets on. There are batons at the ready.

But what kind of warning, if any, have they given to those protesters?

LAVANDERA: About 30 minutes ago, I think, there was a texted phone notification urging people that they needed to disperse from this area, that anyone who did not disperse would be arrested. That was done over the text communication, the university-wide notification.

[14:45:12]

And then, just moments ago, there was someone who came on with a loudspeaker telling this group that they needed to disperse.

And so there had been warnings sent out here periodically within the last hour or so.

Those warnings --

(CROSSTALK)

LAVANDERA: -- presumably, all the -- all the protesters that were inside this encampment area have also received that notification. So now we will see just how much more time these -- these officers give the protesters (INAUDIBLE).

KEILAR: And, Ed, just to point out, you are very close to the capital. And as we learned last week, when the Texas Department of Public Safety officers responded, it was at the request of the university, they said, but at the direction of Republican Governor Greg Abbott.

And I wonder what -- especially in light of the fact that a number of other campuses across Texas did not see a similar response. But U.T. Austin did.

What are the political overtones that are playing out? What is the political debate like there in the capital about what's going on?

LAVANDERA: Well, the governor of Texas, Greg Abbott, has been very clear and obviously -- hold on one second. We're seeing officers starting trying to break their way -- here we go.

(SHOUTING)

LAVANDERA: We see officers there breaking away the tables and starting to make their way inside the encampment. We've seen one -- one person taken into custody just here off my shoulder. And he's being zip-tied right now as we speak.

(SHOUTING)

LAVANDERA: And we see --

(SHOUTING)

LAVANDERA: -- state troopers are trying to keep the onlookers away to allow other officers to get inside the encampment. Many of the protesters continuing to lock arms.

And we've seen here over the last hours that many of the organizers in this group were urging people to stand on the edge of the encampment and to lock arms to be able to keep officers and anyone else from getting inside -- inside the circle.

But now it appears that it's the state troopers that are setting up the barrier around that is allowing multiple police officers to get inside there and they're starting to break away the tables that were set up here for the -

(SHOUTING)

LAVANDERA: We have more state troopers trying to make their way through here.

Give me one moment, Brianna, to try to kind of assess the situation. This is an encircled encampment probably about 20 yards across from one side to the other. So it's not a large scene that we're seeing here.

But slowly, the local police department, the university police, as well as Austin police breaking away the -- these tables that the protesters had been using to essentially serve as a wall around this encampment.

So we've seen that kind of initial penetration by law enforcement here on the ground as some on-lookers are continuing to gather. The state troopers that are allowing that.

But it doesn't appear from this area that we're at that any people had been taken into custody. We've seen one.

(SHOUTING)

LAVANDERA: You hear a group of people cheer, asking for a medic at this point, so I don't know exactly what has happened. But I don't see any other police officers at this point trying to break their way into the encircled area.

Let's see if they continue --

(CHANTING)

MARQUARDT: All right, Ed, stay with us. We're going to come back to you in just a moment as this unfolds at the Austin campus of the University of Texas.

I want to bring in Ed Davis, who's the former Boston police commissioner.

And, Ed, I want to get your sense of what we're looking at here. You have multiple police agencies, including the Department of Public Safety, so that's the state troopers, as well as some local police.

[14:50:03]

I noticed that when you look at those state troopers, they were not wearing gas masks, and that may be an indication that perhaps they're not ready to use some of the more aggressive tactics, like pepper spray, like tear gas.

Some of those protesters, I should note, were holding umbrellas, which I've seen protesters used to shield their identities, but also to shield things like pepper spray.

What do you make of the posture that were seeing from law enforcement there on the Austin campus?

ED DAVIS, FORMER BOSTON POLICE COMMISSIONER: Well, it would appear as though there is some type of action being prepared. The officers will put on equipment that is consistent with what the threat is that they're facing.

So sometimes you can go to these things with no equipment at all on and have a very soft approach in moving in on a crowd. When you get a crowd as raucous as we're seeing here, then you have to step up the protection for the officers.

Because remember, this is about everybody going home safely at the end of the day. And -- and when you have a group of officers that you send in to dismantle an organizational event like this, the possibility of things being thrown from the crowd is very high.

We've had that happen in Boston. Sometimes they throw water bottles, sometimes it's rocks and bottles, and the potential for injury to people on both sides is significant.

So the officers will put on gear that their commanders have deemed to be appropriate for the threat that they're facing.

KEILAR: It seems, based on what the charges were for the arrest last week, almost 60 people arrested, a number of them students, but certainly not all of them. It was trespassing, right?

There were not any arrests, as we understand it. And we are watching some pictures here as they're clearing some protesters out -- or maybe -- is this for moments ago or is this live?

Marty, is this from moments ago or is this live that we're seeing on the right side of our screen at U.T. Austin?

All right, we're trying to get an answer there as we look at these pictures.

These are live pictures that you're seeing as you see law enforcement engage with protesters.

But, Ed, just to ask you -- and you see arrest there with zip ties of law enforcement there of protesters -- to ask you, it seems the main concern is trespassing. Not that these protesters were doing anything violent. That's not what the charges reflected.

Eventually, the county attorney dismissed all of the charges. So it'll be curious to see what happens today here.

How does law enforcement factor in their response when you have that consideration they may be gathering in a place where the university does not want them.

They're clearly setting up an encampment, which the university does not want. This is an area where commencement is going to be happening here just in a matter of a couple of weeks.

How does law enforcement balance that while also trying to make sure they don't escalate the situation?

DAVIS: This is a very difficult issue. I've spoken to mayors and college officials over the course of this past week. And it's really a balancing act.

And you know, people have a right to free expression and to the First Amendment right to make their positions known. There is no right to camp out at a particular place. There is no right to take over a building.

And you know, as the old saying goes, your right to swing arounds stops at the at the tip of my nose.

So you've got the right to free speech. And that has to be protected. And I know that the college officials and the mayors that are dealing with this problem right now are talking to constitutional attorneys, free speech experts and trying to work around the issue of allowing people to express themselves but, at the same time keep the space open for the college students.

And so the idea of camping on a particular area is not protected speech.

And so when they start to disrupt, when the protesters start to disrupt the normal course of events, the officials, be it in a mayor or a university president, or a combination of those people and the courts -- because we petitioned the courts to get permission to remove an encampment when we were dealing with that and advise them.

Those three things come together and a decision is made. And then the police get their orders. And they don't look at the incident based upon the prosecution afterwards. They look at whether or not their action is legal, lawful, and appropriate to protect the rights of everyone.

[14:55:07]

At some point in time, the university president, the mayor will call the police and say we want to clear this encampment. And the police go in and to try to do it as safely and as -- without -- believe me, nobody wants to see fighting on TV.

The police are painfully aware that whatever they do is going to be examined very closely. But if -- if the -- if the protesters want to fight, they -- they have to respond with appropriate force.

And I've looked at documents today the protesters sending around, talking about how to resist and how to push back. And whenever that happens, you get a scrum like this, which is really not good for anybody.

MARQUARDT: Ed, we 're only have about 30 seconds left. So if you're -- what you're saying is that unless they -- unless the protesters used force, which, so far, it appears they have not, it does -- you don't think that the state troopers will use force either? DAVIS: Well, the state troopers may have to use force to unlock their arms or to take -- sometimes they -- they wrap blocks and chains around each other. There is a level of force that's necessary to remove the student.

Sometimes passive resistance requires force to overcome. But the police have to be measured in their response. And it has to be consistent with the resistance that they're getting from the people they're trying to move.

KEILAR: All right. Ed Davis, thank you so much. Standby for us if you would.

For those who are joining us, we are watching these live pictures out of Austin, Texas, at the University of Texas at Austin, where state police and local police are there trying to break up an encampment that has formed on campus, where, in just a matter of a couple of weeks, commencement is supposed to be held.

This is a developing situation that we're keeping our eye on. There have been some encounters between law enforcement and students. We're going to keep watching this.

We'll get in a quick break and be right back.

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