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200+ Arrested At Columbia After NYPD Clears Occupied Building; Judge Finds Trump In Contempt For Violating Gag Order; Florida's Six- Week Abortion Ban Takes Effect. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired May 01, 2024 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: But first, we are joined by our John Miller. He is our law enforcement and intelligence analyst -- a senior analyst for us.

John, can you give me some sense, first of all, of how this happens because as I understand it, the police cannot just come onto campus in a place like Columbia?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: So after the building was taken over about 48 hours ago -- Hamilton Hall -- police were -- police were in contact with the university and they talked to the university about what does it take to get this building back. What does it take to clear the people outside? What does it take to get the non-students who are on the ground off the campus again?

And they came up with a plan. Columbia gave them a letter authorizing them to come onto campus and to take police action.

And what they did was they showed up within an overwhelming force -- literally, hundreds and hundreds of officers and every kind of piece of equipment they could possibly need on the idea that their theory was if we bring a whole lot of people, we probably won't have a whole lot of resistance. And that's what they had. They were able to make arrests without any injuries.

They were able to breach the barricades that had been built by the students holding the building, and others, and arrested about 45 or 50 people inside the first floor, cleared the rest of the building, which was barricaded on every floor but basically empty. And you've got 234 arrests from Columbia last night and another 45 up the street at City College. It was a busy and long evening.

SIDNER: Yeah, there were -- there were two different things happening. Police starting at City College and going there and making arrests, and then coming in with force, as you mentioned. We noticed that they came in through windows. They came in through doors. They used pliers to sort of break in so that they could get to the protesters who had already broken windows.

(Sirens blaring) Just give me one second here because this is normal New York activity here with the sirens going. That having nothing to do with Columbia and what's going on on campus.

Now, I want to ask you about what's happening at the UCLA campus because we have just seen this scene overnight of violence breaking out between counter-protesters who are pro-Israeli and the folks that are pro-Palestinian inside of the encampment. And now you've got police on the ground.

How do they go forward here and try to keep it similar to what happened here, whereas there is no injury? Keep things calm but do the business that the university wants them to do.

MILLER: So, Sara, that's a real challenge. And I know you spent a lot of time on the West Coast covering law enforcement, so you know the difference.

But New York City is 35,000 police officers and if you need 1,000 police offers for an operation you can amass that many. And if you need another 1,000 you can have them there soon enough. A very different situation in Los Angeles. There is a place where you have 9,000 cops patrolling a city that's a third larger, in terms of geography, with half the population.

So they weren't on campus. They have to wait in the same way that New York does to be asked to come on by the campus. UCLA has its own police department, as do most of the universities out there, but they're very small. So what you're going to see out there is a mix of cops from the California Highway Patrol, from Beverly Hills, from Santa Monica put together as a mutual aid team.

And the question is do they stay and separate these protesters and counter-protesters, or do they handle the situation and leave the campus? And then, of course, you run the risk of this coming back.

Even at Columbia, where you are, the administration from the university sent another letter saying could the police leave a holding force behind -- a smaller force, obviously -- until after graduation? Because they don't want to have to clear this building, clear the quad, and then have that come back and have to clear it again.

SIDNER: Yeah, John Miller. Thank you so much for sort of talking us through the big differences between what happened here with the police force here in New York and what is happening on -- in California on the UCLA campus. Thank you so much for being here.

And I do want to let people know that at 9:00 we are expecting to hear from the mayor of New York again on this situation. We are also just now -- and this just came into us that the NYPD has not yet determined how long they will be on campus. But we are certainly seeing a much larger presence of police and barricades around this part of Columbia's campus after the raid of Hamilton Hall yesterday where dozens of arrests and the protesters have been taken out -- John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yeah, the initial announcement was they would be on campus through May 17, after the Columbia graduation. We'll see how that plays out.

Sara, thank you so much.

[07:35:00]

So, the day after a stunning interview where he would not disavow violence if he loses an election again, Donald Trump is hitting the campaign trail today in Wisconsin and Michigan. So this interview with Time magazine previewed what a new Trump term would look like.

CNN's Steve Contorno is with us now. Steve, what's the latest?

STEVE CONTORNO, CNN REPORTER: Well, Donald Trump has not spent much time on the campaign trail, John, since this trial started. In fact, he hasn't even made appearances on the days where he's not required to be in New York.

But he will make his -- held his first campaign rallies today in the critical swing states of Michigan and Wisconsin. These are states that he won in 2016 but lost in 2020 and they are focusing on, again, this go-around. And this will be our -- really, our first chance to see how Trump manages to balance the trial and the trail.

With these appearances today, we will get sort of a glimpse into his strategy as well for navigating the gag order that has been a problem for him in recent weeks. Obviously, yesterday, the judge ruled that he had to pay a $9,000 fine. We will be closely watching to see how he responds to that today on the campaign trail.

It's worth noting that he did remove about a half-dozen Truth Social posts tied to the gag order that were under -- that were raised as a concern by the prosecutor. So we'll see how he responds on the campaign trail.

But as you mentioned, this appearance is also coming after this remarkable lengthy interview with Time magazine where Trump sort of gave a preview into what you could expect into his next term as president. I want to run through a few of those things.

He said -- he suggested that states could punish women for getting an abortion and they could monitor their pregnancies. He wants to leave all these abortion access decisions up to the states.

He would mobilize the military and local police to remove the 11 million undocumented immigrants in the United States.

He also said he would pardon every person accused in the January 6 violence, including those already convicted or those who have pled guilty. These are hundreds of people who have been found guilty or have pled guilty to violence and charges related to the riots that day.

And then he was asked, as you mentioned, about the political violence we saw in that day and whether he thinks that could happen again. And he was somewhat evasive and noncommittal to preventing violence. Let me read you his exact quote. "I think we're going to win. And if

we don't win, you know, it depends on the fairness of an election. I don't believe they'll be able to do the things that they did last time."

So, clearly, leaning on the conspiracies around the 2020 election and not committing to preventing violence or calling down his supporters in 2024, John.

BERMAN: Yeah. Look, he's choosing those words carefully there, obviously, refusing to disavow the possibility of future violence if he loses again.

Steve Contorno, thanks so much for your reporting on this. Appreciate it -- Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: After campaigning in Wisconsin and Michigan today, Donald Trump will be back in court in New York tomorrow as the hush money trial continues. First up, a new hearing on more allegations that Trump violated the judge's gag order. And Judge Merchan, just yesterday, slapped a fine on the former president -- $9,000 for nine violations. And he also ordered Trump to remove the offending social media posts.

And there was also a warning attached that basically came down to if Trump keeps violating the gag order he risks ending up behind bars.

Joining me right now is CNN legal analyst Joey Jackson, and criminal defense attorney Bill Brennan. He represented Donald Trump in his payroll -- Donald Trump's payroll corporation in the 2022 case. It's great to see you guys. Thank you for being here.

Joey, let's first go inside the courtroom and what kind of played out yesterday. Reporters -- CNN reporters inside the courtroom -- they noted how intently and closely the jurors were paying attention to the witnesses that were on the stand. And I -- that's -- to me, you have to kind of read the body language and obviously, you can't speak to them, but it is always so interesting and important to kind of try to read into that.

What does it tell you?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yeah. So, you know, it's often difficult Kate, right, because you're reading tea leaves. However, here's what I like about that. What I like about that is it shows their engagement, and that's significant, right? If you have a jury that has their mind made up, why are they so wrapped and why are they having -- being so attentive to the questions and the answers?

So, if anything, that tells you that you have a jury that wants to learn information. That wants to do the right thing and ultimately, wants to render the proper determination. And so, to me, it's important.

Erin Burnett said last night that she was -- you know, when she was in the courtroom it was interesting. It was almost like a tennis volley -- the question, the answer, the question, the answer. And they didn't look at Trump. And to me, that's important, too. He's not testifying. He's sitting there as a defendant in the case.

[07:40:07]

So don't know which way they're leaning. Don't know how they're absorbing or processing the information. But we do know, based upon that, that they are paying close attention.

BOLDUAN: And Bill, Donald Trump's attorneys -- they've been trying to definitely paint Michael Cohen as an unreliable witness. He has yet to come to obviously take the stand.

But we are hearing from other witnesses about their interactions with Michael Cohen and this is a choice by the prosecution.

How do you think he is being painted even before he takes the stand? And how do you think the jury will perceive -- perceives him already?

WILLIAM BRENNAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FORMER PAYROLL ATTORNEY FOR DONALD TRUMP: Well, good morning, Kate, and thanks for having me.

I agree with Joey. You want those jurors to have that wimble the neck, you know -- watching back and forth the volley of the question and the answers.

And I don't think we have to guess how he's being painted or perceived. The witness on the stand yesterday -- I think it was Davidson -- said I didn't trust Cohen.

And Cohen is a polluted source. He's going to take the stand being convicted of lying to Congress, a convicted felon, and he's got an axe to grind with the defendant. He went from a sycophant to Donald Trump to now somebody who is kind of out to get him.

And jurors pick up on that. Jurors pick up on when a witness seems to have skin in the game. So I think Cohen could be a disaster for the prosecution.

And if you take it so far -- if you take the witnesses that we've heard from so far, all you've really heard is that Cohen went out and got a home equity loan on Cohen's house without telling Cohen's wife. And Cohen negotiated a deal with Davidson and the AMI people. And Cohen formed a corporation.

The banker said he never spoke to the defendant. He never heard from the defendant.

You know, there's a strong narrative here that the defense could craft that Cohen went rogue and he was looking for a little pat on the head from his boss and he came up with this scheme on his own. It might sell.

BOLDUAN: So, Davidson just -- for everyone to get up to speed, he was basically laying out the origins of this hush money payments to Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal because he'd worked with them.

What do you think of what you just heard from Bill? What do you think -- how do you think Keith Davidson, that attorney, came across or didn't?

JACKSON: So, I thought very well, right, and I thought certainly, laying the foundation as to the deal. What deal? The deal as it relates to Stormy Daniels and paying her. The deal as it relates to Karen McDougal. To Bill's point, though, the deal was as between Cohen.

Now, what jurors are also instructed is that you can draw reasonable inferences from facts. And they are going to be asked to draw the reasonable inference that this was about Cohen, who was the fixer, fixing things for his boss at the behest and at the direction of and because he was involved in trying to -- he, being Trump -- had full knowledge of what was happening. And there's the argument, right?

To Bill's point, certainly, the defense is going to try to distance Trump from that and saying he did go rogue. However, the prosecution will say all of you, use your common sense and good judgment.

BOLDUAN: Right.

JACKSON: Who is the person running for president? Who is the person who serves to benefit? Who is the person who worked for president whose job it was to ensure that the president became the president, right? And so, that is Michael Cohen. So if they make that connection, I think the prosecution are in good shape.

BOLDUAN: And Bill, real quick, on the gag order. We've got a new hearing tomorrow on the four additional alleged violations. Nine thousand dollars and a real -- and a warning from the judge was the penalty yesterday.

What do you think of the penalty and what do you think happens tomorrow?

BRENNAN: Well, I think Judge Merchan is in a very difficult position. Joey knows -- he was a prosecutor in that office. And it's a tough spot to have a former president as a defendant. It's -- you know, it's the first time in history.

So I think the judge probably will just impose another monetary sanction kind of on the theory that these allegations -- these additional four were made while the decision on the first 10 were pending. But I think there will be another stern order.

And I spent seven weeks in that courtroom with Judge Merchan. I wouldn't call his bluff. He could easily say here's what we're going to do. There's been repeated violations. The thousand-dollar cap is a joke. At the end of the trial, win or lose, the defendant is going to spend a day or two in jail. Just kind of a -- just more form over substance. So I really would take Judge Merchan very seriously.

And I've represented the former president a couple of times. I would say to him knock it off. Let's focus on the trial. This is a distraction. This is the tail wagging the dog.

BOLDUAN: And also, then, the question of does your client listen to your strategic advice?

It's good to see you, Bill. Thank you very --

BRENNAN: It's a bit of a crap shoot.

BOLDUAN: Thank you --

BRENNAN: Thank you, Kate, Joey.

BOLDUAN: -- so much. It's great to see you, Joey -- John.

JACKSON: Thank you, Kate.

[07:45:00]

BERMAN: All right. This morning, you are never too old to have fun. That is the advice from 82-year-old ice dancer Donna MacDonald. She and her 84-year-old -- she and 84-year-old Stan Case are turning heads at a mall ice rink in Edmonton in Canada. Donna was inspired by seeing a figure skater at the mall and decided to pick up a pair of skates herself. Stan says that he learned how to ice dance from watching YouTube videos, like the rest of us.

They have now been ice dancing partners for about four years. Now, Donna would like it noted they are not married. They just ice dance together. No -- as an aside, I will say we all know where ice dancing can lead.

All right. The brand-new message from President Biden this morning on Donald Trump and abortion rights. And standing by for any kind of message from the Fed on when we might get a cut in interest rates.

(COMMERCIAL)

[07:50:34]

BERMAN: All right. It is decision day for the Federal Reserve. This afternoon, they will announce whether they are keeping interest rates steady for the sixth time in a row or if a cut in rates is coming as they continue to deal with stubborn inflation.

With me now is Jeanna Smialek. She is the Federal Reserve and economy reporter for The New York Times. Jeanna, thanks so much for being with us.

I think I framed that the wrong way. I think zero percent of people are expecting an interest rate cut today.

So what will you be watching for from the Fed? What words, what guidance?

JEANNA SMIALEK, FEDERAL RESERVE AND ECONOMY REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES (via Webex by Cisco): Yeah, this meeting is all about what comes next. So coming into this year we all expected that the Fed would be making interest rate cuts, really, already. They had predicted that they were going to make three cuts over the course of 2024. That has obviously had a big curveball thrown in it by the fact that inflation has been unexpectedly stubborn in recent months.

And so what we're watching for today is any signal from the Fed chair, Jerome Powell, about how they're thinking about that stubbornness and what that's going to mean for the trajectory for rate cuts.

Are they still going to be able to make the three cuts? You know, it seems like that's less and less likely with each passing move. Is it possible that they could start considering a rate increase if things continue going in the wrong direction, and sort of what is the standard for making that change? I think those are really important details that we'll all be watching for today.

BERMAN: That would be doozy if somehow Jerome Powell will open the door to interest rate hikes. And look, I'm not ruling it out. Anything could happen given where things have been going. But that's why people are going to be paying such close attention to sort of the body language he gives when the announcement comes out today.

You wrote a piece in the Times titled, "High Fed Rates Are Not Crushing Growth: Wealthier People Help Explain Why." So what do you mean by that?

SMIALEK: Yeah. I think we typically expect a couple of things to happen when you have interest rates as high as they are now. They are currently at about 5.3 percent. And typically in an environment like this where we have mortgage rates up above seven percent as a result of those high Fed rates, you would expect home prices to be really cooling pretty dramatically. You would expect the stock market to really be suffering dramatically.

And what we've really seen -- you know, April's stock performance notwithstanding -- is the asset prices just aren't suffering that way. Stocks remain pretty close to all-time highs. We've seen home prices actually, yesterday in a surprise outcome from the sort of home price data that we all watch -- actually ticked up, which is not what you would expect in an environment like this.

And so, people who have those assets -- people who hold that wealth are really feeling a lot better than they usually would at this point in a cycle. You know, they're not optimistic about the economy but they do feel -- they tell us in surveys they feel pretty good about their personal finances. They expect to see their incomes rise over the next year.

And so, those sort of positives for richer people are really sort of muting the impact of these Fed interest rate increases. And that -- you know, that opens a big question for the Fed. Is our policy rates high enough to really weigh on the economy? And if they are, how long are they going to have to stay here in order to really sort of wrestle down growth in a way that will cool inflation? BERMAN: These are tough decisions the Fed has to make. And along with the rest of us, I know you'll be watching very, very closely later today. Thanks so much, Jeanna Smialek -- appreciate it -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: So the Biden campaign has just put out a new video this morning. Joe Biden responding directly to Donald Trump's new interview with Time magazine, attacking Trump over where he says he now stands on abortion rights -- abortion bans, specifically.

When asked if he -- Donald Trump -- would be comfortable if states moved to prosecute women for violating the state bans we see, take a look at what Donald Trump said. "I don't have to be comfortable or uncomfortable. The states are going to make that decision. The states are going -- the states are going to have to be comfortable or uncomfortable, not me."

So the reality in the state of Florida today very different than it was yesterday. A six-week abortion ban setting in right now.

CNN's Arlette Saenz is at the White House with much more on this. And, Arlette, Vice President Kamala Harris is heading to Florida today. In light of all of this, what's expected?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, the Biden campaign is eager to once again put the fight for reproductive rights front and center today, and they will do so by deploying Vice President Kamala Harris to Jacksonville, Florida just hours after that new law went into effect that bans most abortions after six weeks.

Now, campaign officials tell us this morning that Vice President Harris is expected to directly blame former President Donald Trump for the overturning of Roe v. Wade. She is expected to call out this new law and other states with restrictive abortion laws as "Trump abortion bans."

[07:55:07]

She will say in her speech later today, "This ban applies to many women before they even know they are pregnant, which tells us the extremists who wrote this ban don't even know how a women's body works. Or they just don't care."

She will also say, "Florida, the contrast could not be clearer: under Donald Trump, it would be fair game for women to be monitored and punished by the government."

It comes, as noted, the Biden campaign has really, in the last 24 hours, tried to seize on those comments from the former president in an interview with Time magazine when he deflected when he was asked whether he would be comfortable with states punishing women who undergo abortions in states where that procedure is banned. He ultimately said that is something that he would leave up to the states.

Now, President Biden, in his video released today, criticized that statement, trying to paint the former president as extreme. And that is something Harris will also lean into in her remarks today.

But this all comes as new CNN polling has shown that the majority of voters still believe that the overturning of Roe v. Wade should not have happened by the Supreme Court.

But Americans are still split about how to proceed in this new reality. If you take a look at this polling, 49 percent want abortion access protected nationwide, while 37 percent want states to decide abortion laws, and 14 percent want to see nationwide restrictions.

Now, the Biden campaign is really hoping the issue of abortion will be a galvanizing force for voters heading into November's elections. That is why you continually see them trying to push this issue as they're trying to paint the former president as extreme and trying to show that they are defenders of reproductive rights.

BOLDUAN: Arlette at the White House. Thank you so much, Arlette -- John.

BERMAN: All right. With us now is Dr. Chelsea Daniels. She is an abortion care provider in Florida and a member of the Committee to Protect Health Care's Reproductive Freedom Task Force. Doctor, thank you so much for being with us.

The ban after six weeks in Florida goes into effect today. And just so we can establish this, what's your estimate of the percentage of women who come in after six weeks?

DR. CHELSEA DANIELS, MEMBER, COMMITTEE TO PROTECT HEALTH CARE'S REPRODUTIVE FREEDOM TASK FORCE, FLORIDA ABORTION PROVIDER (via Webex by Cisco): Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This is obviously so important and so near and dear to my heart.

I can say with confidence that it is the minority of patients that we see who are under six weeks pregnancy. The reason for that being simple -- it is very, very early in pregnancy and it's difficult to know that you are pregnant. Even though most abortion care occurs in the first trimester, I'd say the average is about eight to 11 weeks, which is still very early in pregnancy. So trying to capture people under six weeks is really, really challenging.

BERMAN: So this will cut off the procedure for the majority of patients that you have been seeing. So -- but what's the plan for you? What is your plan and the plan that you're hearing among other providers?

DANIELS: Yeah, it will cut off the access to this basic, essential medical care for the vast majority of patients as we have already seen happen in other states that have opposed restrictive bans.

So the plan for us is to keep fighting and working as hard as we can because abortion care exists on a spectrum of all pregnancy-related and reproductive health care. And we want to serve patients as best as we can.

We are also extremely, extremely motivated and hopeful for November. We know that Floridians support the notion that government should not be interfering in personal medical decisions between a patient and provider, and so we are really optimistic that we're going to have the opportunity to tell government to stay out of the exam room.

BERMAN: And that would be in November when there is a ballot measure and Floridians will vote on that.

You've said that this ban is like a punch in the gut. What do you mean by that?

DANIELS: It is on so many levels -- on a personal level, on a professional level. I have spent decades in training to do this job in education and in school and in residency, and so I have the skills and I have the knowledge, and I have the expertise to be able to help patients get this essential care and I am being legally told that I cannot do so, which is insulting on so many levels.

And it also feels insulting to patients who have come to make medical decisions thoughtfully and in consultation with loved ones and after a lot of thinking and talking. And decisions like this essentially tell patients and they tell me as a physician that we are no longer seen as qualified to make these decisions on our own, and that we are being required to run these decisions by politicians who are not medical providers.

BERMAN: What have --

DANIELS: And that is --

BERMAN: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. But the women who have been coming in the last few days --

DANIELS: No, it's OK.

BERMAN: -- as this ban has been approaching -- what have you been hearing from women in the last few days?