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Police Dismantling UCLA Encampment; Trump Gag Order Hearing. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired May 02, 2024 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Election, which he still does not accept the results, even though it was a fair election. After that, how can this - this is in a category of its own.

MARC LOTTER, FORMER TRUMP 2020 DIRECTOR OF STRATEGIC COMMUNICATION, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO DONALD TRUMP AND PRESS SECRETARY TO MIKE PENCE: Well, but I don't think you can actually hold a candidate to a category of its own. They have the same legal rights. And I would say that Joe Biden -

BOLDUAN: Legal rights for sure, but that's - but I'm talking about the political violence that is not completely - that he does not completely denounce or take the opportunity to when he's asked about political violence, not just fairness of an election.

LOTTER: Well, I mean, we're not talking about political violence here. We're talking about accepting the results of an election. And so -

BOLDUAN: This is where - this is what comes after the election.

LOTTER: And - and I think, obviously, over all he's going to condemn political violence. I think January 6th was a horrible day. The folks who were there exercising their rights at the Ellipse -

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: He calls them J 6 patriots. He's not condemning the violence. He's calling the J 6 patriots.

LOTTER: There were - there were tens of thousands of people who were there at The Ellipse. And then there was a small number that went into the Capitol - inside the Capitol.

BERMAN: And he says he's going to pardon these - he says he's going to pardon - he won't rule out pardoning all the people who were inside the Capitol. And he calls them J 6 patriots.

We do have to cover the breaking news that's going on in LA. Or coverage continues right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, we're going to bring you live, new scenes of what's going on there at the UCLA campus after an encampment has been on that campus, a pro-Palestinian encampment, for a week now. It looks like the police are moving that encampment completely out.

Let us get to Camila Bernal, who is there on the scene right now. We are seeing it is now light there. We've been watching this since 1:45 in the morning when police started pushing in.

What can you tell us about the status of the protesters and the encampment itself, which takes up the size of about a football field?

CAMILA BERNAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Sara.

So, I'll start with the encampment. That encampment has been cleared by police officers. And what we saw was every single protester getting arrested one by one. At the very end, when you had a smaller group of protesters, what you were seeing was a lot more defiance, people pushing and shoving as they were getting arrested. Definitely a little bit more violence towards that last group of protesters. They were still trying to link arms. They were still shouting and saying things like, dissolve and divest, and screaming as they were being taken away by these police officers.

In the distance you can see the buses where all of these members of the encampment, or protesters, were being taken after they were arrested or detained by these police officers. But you're seeing the amount of trash and the amount of tents and just a lot of the things that these protesters had for a week to be here inside of this encampment. It is just a mess. And you're seeing some of those officers taking down those tents at the moment as they were getting arrested. Every single one of those protesters was getting their helmets off, face coverings, masks, they were being taken off by these law enforcement officers and then taken to the buses nearby.

Now, I want to show you the scene in front of me because the focus has now shifted to this area. There are protesters that were outside of the encampment that are still here waving these Palestinian flags, still shouting. And we did here these CHP officers saying that they were going to shift focus. So now you're seeing more of these officers standing right outside of the encampment, or the area that was the encampment, and are now facing these protesters. They have not moved in. And again, this sort of shifted just moments ago.

But this is the scene right now. Protesters who were not part of the encampment, who are still wearing a lot of these helmets and face coverings, and then the line of CHP officers in riot gear.

I also want to say, I saw some of these CHP officers covered in that white powder. We - we were speaking earlier and said that they likely had these fires distinguishers going off. That was part of the protesters. And we saw some of those fire extinguishers on the ground in the middle of all this trash. So, it's likely that that was used by the protesters.

I saw some of the protesters at some point throwing water bottles and water at the officers. That was the moment when we saw what we believe were rubber bullets and police firing those off. Those were used during the most tense moments of the morning. But at the moment, things are a lot calmer despite the fact that you are still seeing a lot of protesters and the line of police officers here, Sara.

SIDNER: Camila, thank you for your great reporting.

And the headline here is that the encampment on the UCLA campus, the pro-Palestinian encampment, has now been cleared. It has been there for about a week. We have seen violence that has happened between protesters, both the pro-Israeli protesters and the pro-Palestinian protesters.

[09:05:08]

Now we are seeing a very different scene on that campus, that large encampment of pro-Palestinian protesters has now been taken down. And you can see people have been arrested. We have seen at least a couple of dozen people arrested throughout its morning.

I do want to get to another journalist who is on campus right now, Jon Peltz.

You were there overnight as all of this was happening. Can you describe what you saw? And, you know, we've seen so many of these protests across the nation. You have people standing out there or in these encampments and we have seen some violent arrests in places like Emory and UT-Austin.

What is the scene there? Because this seems like a very common and methodical move by police.

JON PELTZ, JOURNALIST: The scene was a - it was a very peaceful encampment overnight. At some point the police, I think around 8:00 p.m., issued a dispersal order. And that's when the protesters started organizing around these barricades and sort of reinforcing the defenses around this entire encampment.

It was - it wasn't until about 1:00 a.m. that the police really started encroaching on the encampment itself.

SIDNER: OK. So around 1:00 a.m. you started seeing movement by the police. It is now 6:00 a.m. your time there on the West Coast, and the encampment is now completely dismantled.

Can you give me some sense of the protesters that are still there because we've noticed that the police line has moved, and I'm sort of just looking down to try to see what is on our air. But the police line has moved to a different area. Can you give us some sense of what is happening beyond that encampment that has now been taken down?

PELTZ: Yes, some of the - there are some protesters who are still by the - by the entrance of these encampments and they're sort of chanting and saying different things about - pro-Palestinian sayings towards the police officers that are still there. But there's a separate section of protesters that have moved to intercept the bus carrying detainees, I believe.

SIDNER: OK. So, that - I was going to ask you, lastly, like, where are the people being arrested being taken at this point in time? Can you give us some sense of that?

PELTZ: I haven't heard any confirmation yet on which jail they're going to. It could be any number of jails. I'm still trying to figure that out.

SIDNER: But - I was actually asking just how they're getting transversed. So there are buses that are on the streets surrounding campus that the students, or the protesters, whether it is students or professors or outside folks, they are being taken to buses, correct? I just want to make sure.

PELTZ: Yes. They were detained and taken to buses and there's - I've heard there's an area where protesters are maybe going to go towards the buses that is still on campus.

SIDNER: OK.

Jon Peltz, a journalist there who is on campus of the UCLA campus. Thank you to you and our Camila Bernal, who throughout the morning has been showing us these images of what's happening.

But the headline here, John and Kate, is that that encampment that has been up on UCLA's campus is now torn down and everyone that was inside there from this morning has been detained by police.

BERMAN: Thats right, the encampment has been cleared. That from CNN's Josh Campbell reporting. Police now standing at the perimeter. And you can see a gathering of protesters on the perimeter. We can probably put those pictures back up again. The protesters are at the perimeter. There are some people out there. But the police are holding a line on the outside. The encampment itself has now been cleared.

With us, CNN law enforcement analyst, former deputy director of the FBI, Andy McCabe.

Andy, this is an operation that went over several hours, but law enforcement has now completed what they set out to do, which was to clear that encampment. How do you see it?

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, John, I think what we saw over the last many hours is a real change in the response in Los Angeles. What I think could be characterized up through maybe Tuesday evening into Wednesday as not well-coordinated, not very well thought out, and an ineffective response to the folks who had built that encampment really turned into a highly responsive, coordinated across many law enforcement agencies operation that exhibited a couple of key things that I think are important to point out.

[09:10:03]

One, they showed up in force, massive numbers, which is what you need to confront a large crowd. Two, they really lagged the time element here. They were there and they made it clear what they were going to do, what their intention was, and then they waited until very, very early in the morning. And that has the effect of kind of draining the crowd of some of those people who are there, you would have to deal with them, but if they're not really committed to the event if they're just there to see what's - what happening, they might leave. It reduces the numbers for you.

And then finally they began at a very methodical way by dismantling the perimeter around the encampment and going in slowly, carefully, clearing every inch of that ground. And anyone inside at that point is going to get arrested.

So, I think what we saw was ultimately a very effective if at times ugly operation that was absolutely necessary to clear this hazard from the campus.

BOLDUAN: Andy, what's the lesson then, because this is not the - not the - not the only, obviously, campus that is dealing with - that has the pro-Palestinian encampments on - on-campus and it continues throughout the country and they continue to - continue to pop up and build. What is the lesson that you think universities should be taking from kind of everything up to this point?

MCCABE: Yes, Kate, so I think one of the most obvious lessons is the lead up to this clearance was something that never really should have happened. It's incomprehensible to me that university, and particularly UCLA police, campus police, would ever have allowed this crowd to build that sort of a fortification. You know, respecting students' rights to protest and to exercise their First Amendment rights is absolutely essential, but that doesn't include bringing truckloads of lumber and shipping pallets and essentially building a maybe impregnable fortress on campus grounds.

So, there has to be a level of engagement from the very beginning, making a clear kind of delineation between what sort of conduct is permissible and what sort of conduct is not. And then imposing consequences when the protesters go beyond - beyond that boundary.

So that - if - if I was talking to university presidents today, that's the first thing I'd be advising them on.

BERMAN: All right, Andy McCabe, great to see you this morning. Thank you very much for being with us.

Donald Trump is headed back to court this morning. This after he gave an interview where he seemed to open the door to the idea of insurrection 2.0. He was asked if he would accept the results of the 2024 election. He says, if it's honest, I'll gladly accept them. If not, he says you have to fight for the right of the country. What will the impact of statements like that be from the candidate who, obviously, with everything that happened on January 6th.

Our live coverage continues right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:17:34]

BOLDUAN: Donald Trump has just arrived in - at court in New York for another day before the judge and the jury. First up, he's facing another hearing on allegations that he violated the judge's gag order again in his criminal hush money trial. He was fined this week for violating the order nine times, which came with -- and at that time it came with a warning that if he pushed it further the judge said he could face jail time.

Now, on social media this morning, and at his campaign event in Michigan yesterday, Donald Trump railed against the gag order itself and also attacked the judge, but seemingly very careful to not cross the line and rack up another gag order violation.

CNN's Brynn Gingras is outside the court. She's back with us.

Brynn, what's expected with this now second gag order hearing?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right.

So, Kate, this gag order hearing is going to start up at 9:30. And then the jury will come in for this trial to continue at 10:00 a.m. We actually just heard the former president speak a little bit before heading into the courtroom at this very moment. And like you just mentioned, being very careful with his words as his gag hearing is going to kick off today's day.

But listen, as you said, the judge fined him already $9,000 for nine previous violations that the prosecution had alleged and asked for $1,000 per violation is the highest that the judge can actually penalize Trump. And even in his order, he said he doesn't believe that's going to deter him at all because it's such a low fine for someone like Donald Trump. And that is why he said, if you keep doing it, the court's not going to tolerate it. We're going to - you know, he threatened jail time. So, it's going to be interesting to see how the judge hears these four new violations.

Now, of course, this came to the judge after - or rather before the judge had put out this order just a couple of days ago. But we'll see if the judge makes any remarks. Remember this last time he took a few days before he issued his ruling in regards to that other gag order. So, we'll have to see what happens.

But let's listen to some of the violation - or one of them at least, the violations that the prosecution here is alleging that - where Trump violated it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: But they call the payment to a lawyer a legal expense in the books. They didn't call it construction. They didn't say you're building a building. It called a payment to a lawyer because, as you know, Cohen is a lawyer.

[09:20:02]

Represented a lot of people over the years. Now, I'm not the only one. And wasn't very good in a lot of ways in terms of misrepresentation. But he represented a lot of people. But he puts in an invoice or whatever, a bill, and they pay it and they call it a legal expense. I got indicted for that.

And when are they going to look at all the lies that Cohen did in the last trial? He got caught lying in the last trial. So, he got caught lying. Pure lying. And when are they going to look at that?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GINGRAS: All right, so four violations in total, which will be brought up in court. All of them are examples, just like you heard, where Trump is actually speaking to the media versus Truth Social posts, like we saw last time. After that gag order hearing happens, we're going to have Keith Davidson back on the stand, guys. Remember, he is the one who negotiated the payments, hush money payments for the two women who alleged affairs with Donald Trump, Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal.

Guys.

BOLDUAN: Brynn, thank you so much. We'll be following all this very - as special coverage will be picking up soon.

BERMAN: All right, let us take a quick look at the markets right now. Market futures are up in the green. This is after the Federal Reserve left interest rates unchanged for a sixth straight meeting. And what investors liked was that Fed Chair Jerome Powell expressed, I guess, a little bit of optimism about inflation. He said it's unlikely that the Fed's next move will be to raise interest rates. So, I think that's more relief. They were relieved he's saying they're not going to raise interest rates. At the same time he did not give any assurance about when there would be a rate cut next.

But the markets again, by and large, sort of liked it, I would say.

BOLDUAN: Standby to standby on that one.

BERMAN: Right.

BOLDUAN: We're also looking - we're going to show you more live pictures outside the courthouse. Inside the courthouse in Manhattan, Donald Trump is about to face a new gag order hearing.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:25:33]

BERMAN: All right, these are live pictures from inside and outside the New York City courthouse. The criminal trial of Donald Trump resumes shortly.

The first order of business today is a new hearing on whether Donald Trump is in contempt of court for violating the gag order. A few other counts that they will review today.

With us now is Sarah Krissoff, former prosecutor with the Southern District of New York, and Jennifer Rodgers, CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor.

And, Jen, just so people understand the timeline here. The judge dropped the hammer on Donald Trump, fined him $9,000 for being in contempt for violating the gag order the other day and threatened the possibility of jail time if he did it again. These alleged violations actually were before the judge issued that ruling, so unlikely that they would, you know, result in jail time here. But what are you looking for today?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: From the gag order hearing?

BERMAN: From the gag order hearing.

RODGERS: Yes, not much. I mean he'll find whether it's today, or later, there were violations.

BERMAN: Yes.

RODGERS: He'll probably issue another thousand dollar fine. But, you're right, these instances happened before he issued his ruling last time. So, there's no way he's going to say, all right, you know, time's up. Time for you to go to jail now.

BOLDUAN: And, Sarah, Donald Trump used his day off from court to campaign in Wisconsin and Michigan. And during it he took shots at the judge overseeing the case. Let me play this for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have come here today from New York City, where I'm being forced to sit for days on end in a kangaroo courtroom with a corrupt and conflicted judge, enduring a Biden side show trial at the hands of a Marxist district attorney Soros back, who's taking orders from the Biden administration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Despite the necessary fact check, which we've done before, that there's no evidence that Joe Biden has anything to do with a locally elected district attorney and a - and this district attorney's choice to prosecute Donald Trump, beside that fact check, what you can also hear there is that Donald Trump was careful to not, at least it appears, to not violate the gag order from the campaign stage. But you hear that, Sarah, and I don't know, does this have an impact in court?

SARAH KRISSOFF, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: You know, if you're Trump's legal team, you are listening to all of these statements and you are on edge, right? You are worried he is going to say something that is going to be a problem for him in court, that's going to be used directly against him, that the judge is going to, you know, fined problematic. So, put aside the gag order. There may be statements here potentially that could implicate him and the underlying crimes.

But he's - he's trying to be careful now. The former president is treading a little bit more lightly given all these violations and, you know, sticking with his talking points about the judge and the general corruptness of the case and avoiding commenting on a particular witness.

BERMAN: So, to the case itself, Jen, Michael Cohen, we all believe will be the key witness here. When do you put him on the stand if you're the prosecution and why?

RODGERS: I think about three-quarters of the way through. You don't want him to be last because it's going to be explosive. The cross is going to be very aggressive. But you also want to take this time, which they did very effectively with David Pecker, and they're doing now with Keith Davidson, to preemptively corroborate him so that by the time Michael Cohen gets on the stand, the jury says, well, yes, we already heard about that meeting. We already heard about that text message and those interactions from someone else.

I also think they're doing a great job with Davidson of kind of lightening it and putting it on the record for the jury that Michael Cohen was a jerk. You know, aggressive, combative. Davidson is calling him those things, right, so that when that all happens during cross and even perhaps during direct, the jury says, all right, he's a jerk, but that doesn't mean we don't believe him.

BOLDUAN: And, Sarah, that is an interesting fact because it's like the central witness and the key in all of this is, every single person that's come up, Sarah, has basically said that they didn't - didn't like Michael Cohen. And it's like, you don't really get a witness that's more disliked before the person's really come on the - come on the stand. And you know that the jury is taking note of this. I find it - I like Jen's take and like their strategy in this. What do you think?

KRISSOFF: Sort of beyond being disliked, he has a lot of baggage, right? Michael Cohen has been untruthful before.

[09:30:00]

That has been proven. And so the DA's office has to counter that.