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Bradley Moss is Interviewed about Trump's Trial; Australia's Climate Disaster; Job Growth Slowed in April; Polls Comparing Historical Protests Versus Today's Protests; Sanders on Campus Protests. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired May 03, 2024 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:32:55]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: A busy stretch of I-95 in Connecticut is shut down this morning after, well, this. A tanker truck filled with gasoline burst into flames after a three car crash Thursday. The flames were so hot that there are concerns about the bridge overhead and that it suffered structural damage. Governor Ned Lamont says portions of I-95, this interstate, will remain closed through the weekend as officials are working to dismantle and rebuild the overpass.

WNBA rookies are creating unprecedented demand for tickets to the WNBA games. StubHub says prices for women's basketball are up 93 percent this season. And they say the league's newest star, Caitlin Clark, is likely behind this interest. Tonight, Clark is going to play her first WNBA pre-game with the Indiana Fever. That teams ticket sales are up more than 13 times compared to last year. For the Chicago Sky, ticket sales have tripled. LSU Angel Reese, South Carolina's Kamilla Cardoso, they were drafted to join that team. We shall see.

An amazing discovery in Indonesia. Scientists observed an orangutan in the wild intentionally treating a wound. You can see the poor wound on that poor animal's face. Intentionally treating a wound on his face using a medicinal plant. It is the first time this behavior has been documented according to a paper released this week. They orangutan named Rakus, is what I believe it is pronounced, was seen chewing leaves from the plant, applying the juice to his injury, and then covering it with the leaves. Scientists plan to study other orangutans in the area to see if they repeat the behavior.

Jonathan.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: That's amazing. You should see them apply stitches when they have to also.

BOLDUAN: I mean -

BERMAN: This morning it is all about the tapes as Donald Trump heads back to court. He leaves shortly from Trump Tower. That could happen any moment now. This morning, a forensic analyst is set to return to the stand to talk about the secret recording that Michael Cohen had, many of them, on his phone, including one that he made of this phone call with Donald Trump.

[08:35:02]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: I need to open up a company for the transfer of all of that info regarding our friend David, you know, so that - I'm going to do that right away. I've actually come up and I've spoken -

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Give it to me and -

COHEN: And I've spoken to Allen Weisselberg about how to set the whole thing up with -

TRUMP: So what are we going to pay with -

COHEN: Funding that - yes. And it's all the stuff -

TRUMP: (INAUDIBLE) -

COHEN: All the stuff. Because here you never know where that company - you never know what he's going to be -

TRUMP: (INAUDIBLE) gets it by -

COHEN: Correct. So, I'm - I'm all over that. And I spoke to Allen about it when it comes time for the financing, which will be -

TRUMP: (INAUDIBLE)? What financing?

COHEN: We'll have to pay you so -

TRUMP: No, we'll pay with cash.

COHEN: No. No, no, no, no, no, I got - no, no, no.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: We'll pay with cash. I said it was a phone call. It's an audio recording. That's what we know about that.

With us now, national security attorney Bradley Moss.

Thank you so much for being with us.

That really is what the jury left with last night and comes back in this morning. There's a lot to digest in that. I sort of want to take it line by line. When the jury hears Donald Trump, the defendant in this case, say, we'll pay with cash, when he's discussing a hush money payment, in this case it's to Karen McDougal, which isn't the crime he's charged for, but there is a hush money payment here, we'll pay in cash, what do you think their takeaway is?

BRADLEY MOSS, PARTNER, LAW OFFICE OF MARK S. ZAID AND NATIONAL SECURITY ATTORNEY: That this was all part of an idea of, how do I conceal this? I mean, (INAUDIBLE), with cash there'd be no record. There'd be nothing to even falsify. It would be hidden from the public and no one could ever find it. The only reason we even know about these payments is because of the records that were falsified, because of the bank documents of what Michael Cohen had to take out to fund this payment through the shell corporation to Stormy Daniels through her - sorry - yes, to Stormy Daniels though her lawyer. So, this is just one more foundational piece. We've already heard that recording before in prior investigations, so we knew about it in terms of the public. But the jury needed to specific hear about it in the context of the government's presentation of its evidence, of demonstrating that this was all part of a criminal scheme to falsify business records in furtherance with the intent to defraud the public in the context of campaign finance violations.

BERMAN: OK. What you just said there, I want to dive into that, because what we do here on the tape is Donald Trump talking about hush money payments.

MOSS: Sure.

BERMAN: So, he has knowledge of hush money payments. That is clear when you listen to this.

What I'm not sure is clear, and you can explain why, is how this gets to the falsification of business documents because on this tape, and we didn't hear that part, but it goes on, Michael Cohen says, I'll take care of it. I'll take care of it. I will take care of it, Michael Cohen says. Not Donald Trump. So, does that cut against the idea that Trump was involved in the bookkeeping aspect of it?

MOSS: That's certainly going to be the defense's presentation, especially when Michael Cohen eventually takes the stand, presumably sometime next week. The idea that this was actually Michael Cohen going rogue, that Donald Trump was not aware of these details, that he certainly didn't authorize, you know, falsification of the records. He had no knowledgeable of what Cohen was doing.

But we should expect that not only we'll hear the details from Cohen, but when it gets to jury instructions, and we saw a preview of this in some of the pre-trial motions, the government is going to push through what's called accomplice liability to try to tie Donald Trump to this. No matter how much specific personal knowledge he had of how Cohen was doing the nitty-gritty details.

BERMAN: First of all, I should note that we are seeing Donald Trump leave Trump Tower right now. He just walked out of the building, got in the SUV. He will be on the move shortly.

Talk to me a little bit more about that because that's the first I've heard of that. In the jury instructions it doesn't have to be Donald Trump literally ordering the documentation, it just has to be a knowledge and a general conspiracy? How is the jury supposed to decide that?

MOSS: Yes, so it's going to be based on whether or not there's sufficient evidence, you know, beyond a reasonable doubt, a standard we all know, to demonstrate not only that these actions were taken, but it was taken by these subordinates with the approval, with the intent of Donald Trump, even if he didn't know those specific - specific granular details of how they would conceal things, that would be sufficient still to meet that falsification of business records standard. And the reason going forward - you know, so far all we've really been hearing about is the campaign aspect. And I think we'll hear more about that with Hope Hicks today, is because the true underlying premise of all this was that aggravating factor that bumped this up to a felony, with the intent to defraud in order to commit campaign finance violations, both the federal and at the state level.

BERMAN: And we could hear from Hope Hicks today. We're not sure who the next witness will be. There's a lot of speculation it would be her. If it is her, what is it you think the prosecution wants to leave the jury with headed into the weekend? The couple touchpoints we know about Hope Hicks by testimony that she was in one of the original meetings with David Pecker where they talked about - in and out of that meeting where they talked about sort of the catch-and-kill scheme. And there are also phone calls to the White House later on about the idea of payments to Karen McDougal.

[08:40:05]

This is, again, while Trump was already in office. What's the goal there?

MOSS: Yes, so Hope Hicks is going to be a somewhat troublesome prosecution witness, but she is the key in a sense of insider knowledge starting from the beginning at those first meetings with David Pecker leading up through the campaign, especially if you think of the fall of 2016 with the "Access Hollywood" tape and everything, about the serious campaign concern about Trump's image with women and the idea that these stories could come out and could further damage him in the days leading up to the election. But then taking it through into how those payments were going back to Michael Cohen in 2017, once Trump was in the White House, the extent, knowledge of what Donald Trump personally was aware of, that he was signing some of these checks. He knew what Cohen was having to do to get this stuff reimbursed. He had knowledge of some of the extent of the paperwork. That will be critical. How much she provides without prodding, that will be interesting to see.

BERMAN: Yes, we don't know. We don't know how much she will say. I did read "The New York Times." It's been two years really since Hope Hicks and Donald Trump have spoken.

MOSS: Yes.

BERMAN: So that is interesting in and of itself.

Brad Moss, great to see you this morning. Thank you very much.

Sara.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, we've got some new CNN reporting for you this morning. Can Australia at fast enough to save itself from the devastation of climate change?

CNN's Ivan Watson went on a journey across the country to see the evolving threat firsthand for this week's episode of "THE WHOLE STORY WITH ANDERSON COOPER."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A 13 seat Cessna caravan flying an hour from Brisbane far out over the Pacific Ocean. We spot a tiny patch of green ringed by a halo of coral reef.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: we're looking at the beautiful Lady Elliot Island, the first island on the (INAUDIBLE) the Great Barrier Reef.

WATSON (voice over): This is literally the start of this massive marine habitat right here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The world's largest barrier reef starts right here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: The images are gorgeous, Ivan Watson, but there is a real threat happening here. What did you learn?

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, Australia is this incredible country. It's this continent that is on the front lines of climate change.

So, I got a once in a career opportunity, I think, to travel there, to go scuba diving on the Great Barrier Reef. This enormous marine ecosystem that's the size of Italy, basically, and home to like 1,500 species of fish, just fish, right? And while it was incredible and a great chance, my team and I witnessed some really sobering stuff.

We were there in the middle of February, at the height of the Australian summer, and we saw, at five different locations, coral that was turning white, bleaching. That's because of record high ocean temperatures that was literally cooking the coral. And a couple weeks later, the Australian government said that this was in fact a mass bleaching event, the seventh that has happened on the Great Barrier Reef, and part of a much larger phenomenon across the globe of coral reefs all the way from the Caribbean and Florida last year to Australia, where the reefs, these coral, are dying off due to record high marine temperatures.

So, on the one hand, I got to do things like dive and swim with sea turtles and reef sharks. But then there's the sobering reality that according to what marine biologists are saying, Sara, my daughter probably will not get to see these marine habitats because there'll be dead by the time she's an adult.

SIDNER: Wow, that's a real stark reality. We know that coral reefs also help when hurricanes come to try to buffer them from making huge, destructive paths across countries.

Thank you so much. Ivan Watson, I can't wait to see this. It looks really, really, really good. Appreciate it.

And be sure to tune in, an all new episode of "THE WHOLE STORY WITH ANDERSON COOPER," one whole hour, one whole story, air Sunday night, 8:00 Eastern and Pacific, only here on CNN.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: We have breaking news in. Just moments ago, a fresh look at the U.S. jobs market, possibly showing signs of down shifting a bit expected this spring. And 175,000 jobs added in April.

CNN's Rahel Solomon joining us now.

Below expectations.

RAHEL SOLOMON, CNN ANCHOR AND BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Below expectations. So, this is a softening. This is a softer report than we were expecting, but a welcome one I think a lot of people will say.

BOLDUAN: Right. Below and happy about it.

SOLOMON: Below and happy, exactly.

So, we were expecting to put this in context, Kate. We were expecting the U.S. economy to add about 232,000 jobs in the month of April. As you said, that came in cooler at 175,000. March was actually revised higher.

[08:45:00]

So, March was a really strong month.

BOLDUAN: Oh, wow.

SOLOMON: Yes, adding 315,000 jobs for the month of March.

Unemployment rate ticked up slightly to 3.9 percent. But if that sounds familiar, it's because we have been in this range of really tight unemployment for more than two years now, right? So, ticking down but still below 4 percent, which is the - which is a trend.

And wages. This was a good sign for the Fed. This was a good sign for the markets. A little bit more of a complicated picture for American workers. So, wages ticked up to 3.9 percent on an annual basis. That is the coolest we have seen in nearly three years.

BOLDUAN: Oh.

SOLOMON: And the reason why that's good news for the Fed, of course, s because they're looking to see if those higher wages sort of fuel price pressures, if it fuels inflation.

Let's talk about some of the sectors and some of the industries where we saw the most job growth in the month of April. We saw continued job growth in health care. That is a trend. That trend continues to the tune of 56,000. Transportation, warehousing also adding. And retail trade adding 20,000 jobs. Retail trade is actually stronger than we have seen as of late. The average was about 10,000, 7,000 actually, and so that's strong. And when you think retail trade, you think, people shopping. So you like to see that.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

SOLOMON: You like to see people out shopping.

BOLDUAN: I thought hospitably wasn't - isn't driving - driving it as much as it has been.

SOLOMON: It hasn't. I'm going to -

BOLDUAN: I saw - it was like five or nine or something like -

SOLOMON: No, it's a great point. Let me pull that up, actually, Kate. Leisure and hospitality not mentioned. So, curious. Perhaps it -

BOLDUAN: I just saw some reporting on it.

SOLOMON: Yes, perhaps it wasn't a big contributor this month. But it's an important point you raise because leisure and hospitality had actually been one of these industries that had been driving a lot of the growth.

So, you put it all together. You put this data, you put the data we got earlier this week where we see job openings coming down, but layoffs also remaining low. Weekly unemployment claims also remaining low. What you have broadly is an economy, a labor market that is gradually cooling, but not so much that it's sort of flashing red signs, a so-called goldilocks.

BOLDUAN: OK.

SOLOMON: Yes.

BOLDUAN: We have - we have reached goldilocks status for one month.

SOLOMON: Yes. Yes. Here's hoping we stay that way.

BOLDUAN: For one month. For one month. They won't hold us to it.

SOLOMON: Truly.

BOLDUAN: It's great to see you, Rahel.

SOLOMON: Likewise.

BOLDUAN: Thank you.

John.

BERMAN: All right, the Biden administration has a new message this morning about the protests on college campuses across the country. Why one senator says the demonstrations are the president's Vietnam.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:51:40]

SIDNER: We've heard from Bernie Sanders comparing protests against the war in Gaza that had been happening on college campuses across the country, to the student protests that happened during the Vietnam War. In an interview with CNN's Christiane Amanpour, Bernie Sanders gave a warning to President Biden about what the unrest could do to his re- election bid, saying, this could be his Vietnam.

And we had Representative Clyburn on this morning who said it is a possibility.

CNN's Harry Enten has a look at how Americans felt back then compared to what is happening, right now on college campuses.

So, how does the Israeli-Hamas war compare to back in the days of the Vietnam War, where, we should be clear, there were American troops involved in that war.

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: That is the big difference, Sara. That is the big difference.

So, I want to look at how many Americans said that this was the nation's top problem. If you go back to the Vietnam War in 1968, 44 percent of Americans said it was the top problem. That rank numero uno in the American mindset. That was the same whether you were young or whether you were old.

Take a look now at the Israel-Hamas war in 2024. Only 2 percent of all adults say it's the nation's top problem. Only 2 percent of those under the age of 35 say it's the top problem. And that is a ridiculous difference that we're seeing. This is not Joe Biden's Vietnam War because the fact of the matter is, is that Americans care far less about this war that's overseas, that does not have American troops over in it, versus the Vietnam War, where obviously there were a lot of American boys and girls over there fighting in Vietnam. So, it's just a completely different picture, Sara.

SIDNER: A completely different picture.

All right, so let's look about history, right? So, one of the things that happened actually on Columbia's campus, which is the epicenter, was a protest about apartheid in South Africa. They took over the same exact hall, Hamilton Hall, in 1985. And so it will be interesting to see the difference between how people felt about that and how people feel about the Israeli-Hamas war.

ENTEN: Yes, sometimes history repeats itself, Sara, and sometimes it doesn't. So, I went back through the history books. OK, where do your - who do your sympathies lie more with? I got the numbers now for 2024. And let's take a look at 1985 first.

In South Africa, 64 percent of Americans said that their sympathies lied more with the black population compared to just 13 percent of Americans who said the white government. Let's go now to the Middle East conflict. What do we see? In fact, the plurality of Americans say their sympathies lie more with the Israelis than the Palestinians, compared to just 29 percent of the Palestinians.

So, when those students were taking over those halls, back in the mid- 80s, the fact is the American population was on the side of the black population. Now when you see those students taking over those halls in right - for Palestinian rights, the fact is, they are not with the American population. The American population is far more with Israel than it was with the white government in South Africa back in 1985.

SIDNER: And then if you look at this, because we just heard from Arlette Saenz that 80 percent of the young people are upset with how Biden has handled the Israeli-Hamas war. What does this tell you about where sympathies lie in this particular protest (INAUDIBLE)?

ENTEN: Ye, if you look at Americans under the age of 35 in South Africa, look at this, 76 percent, their sympathies lied more with the black population. Now it is true that the bare majority of those under the age of 35 say their sympathies lie more with the Palestinians and the Israeli.

[08:55:03]

So that is similar. But the fact is that the Israelis, at 31 percent, have a lot more sympathy with them under the age of 35 than the white government did with just 10 percent back in 1985.

SIDNER: That's an interesting comparison. Harry Enten, thank you so much. Always appreciate it.

ENTEN: Thank you.

SIDNER: Kate.

BOLDUAN: All right, joining us right now is formed Trump administration official Matt Mowers, and CNN political commentator, former Hillary Clinton campaign spokesperson, Karen Finney.

Thanks for being here, guys.

Let's go back to what -- what Harry and Sara were talking about. Senator Bernie Sanders speaking to Christiane Amanpour and what he said about how this could be Biden's Vietnam.

Let me play this for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): This may be Biden's Vietnam. Lyndon Johnson, in many respects, was a very, very good president, domestically brought forth some major pieces of legislation. He chose not to run in '68 because of opposition to his views on Vietnam. And I worry very much that President Biden is putting himself in a position where he has alienated not just young people, but a lot of the Democratic base.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Karen, these protests, Israel's continuing war against Hamas, Biden's Vietnam. Do you see that? Do you fear that?

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't for a number of reasons. As Harry and others have mentioned, I mean, there was a huge difference in terms of the motivation of the population in '68 where people were afraid of going to war, The other thing, having talked to both of my parents who were involved in the civil rights movement, we also have to remember that in '68 we lost Martin Luther King Junior. We had already lost JFK. We lose RFK. We lose Malcolm X. I mean so many icons. And so there was so much pain in the system that was directly impacting the things that people were fighting for. So, I think there are a number of differences.

What I think is important, though, is, what is the pain point that is mobilizing these young people? One of the challenges and reason it's not like Vietnam is it's diffuse. There is no central leadership. There is no, you know, coordination among different groups around a core message. And so I think - but there's still clearly pain in the system that needs to be addressed. I think the president did a great job yesterday speaking to, hey, our values are free speech but not violence.

BOLDUAN: And, Matt, I wanted to get your take on what you heard when President Biden spoke out publicly for the first time yesterday. As "Axios" put it, he's trying to thread a needle of defending student's rights to protest, condemning anti-Semitism, condemning violence.

MATT MOWERS, PRESIDENT, VALCOUR GLOBAL PUBLIC STRATEGY: Right.

BOLDUAN: Did - does this do that? Did he do that?

MOWERS: No, I think it was too little too late. And, honestly, it fuels political at this point. He's seen the same polling we all have. You know, if you look at "Morning Consult" poll that came out yesterday, 76 percent of Americans support law enforcement taking action on college campuses to ensure that it's a safe ground for students. You even have 67 percent of young voters agreeing with that. You look at poll - a new poll came out today, ABC/IPSOS, shows Donald Trump with an eight point lead over Joe Biden right now over how voters believe - who they believe would actually handle the situation in Israel better. And so this is a reflection of the polling.

But if the president was leading on this, he should have been out there two weeks ago at the same time that Speaker Mike Johnson was speaking at Columbia, making it unequivocal that anti-Semitism has no place on college campuses and that college administrators and local law enforcement have to ensure that college campuses are safe for every single student. The fact that he's doing it now, it's nice talk, but it's a little too late.

BOLDUAN: And, Karen, this is becoming, though, looking - today it does feel - I don't know if it's full a core press, but we're definitely seeing more response from the administration. The education secretary putting out - sending a letter this morning to college and university presidents about condemning abhorrent incidents of anti-Semitism on campus as he - as he writes. I mean Miguel Cardona's letter marks, it appears, the strongest tone yet from the administration. Let me read a part of what he's writing. "As the 2023-24 school year comes to a close, I remain incredibly concerned by the reports of anti-Semitic hate directed at students on some campuses." This is a letter that was first obtained by CNN. "In recent days," he writes, "there have been a, quote, sharp rise in reports of anti-Semitism targeting Jewish students on some campuses."

President Biden is speaking at a Holocaust remembrance ceremony at the U.S. Capitol on Tuesday. It feels to me that there is a lot at stake with that.

FINNEY: Oh, absolutely. But I - can we just remember that the administration has been in communication with the administrations of these different campuses for weeks, as well as the mayors and governors. And I do think that those administrators deserve time to try to result - have peaceful resolutions, like we've seen in some instances.

[09:00:06]

I think what changed is what was happening at UCLA, my alma mater,