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Judge Indefinitely Postpones Federal Classified Documents Case; Greene Maintains Ouster Threat After Second Meeting With Johnson; Police Clear George Washington University Encampment, Arrest Dozens. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired May 08, 2024 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[07:30:55]

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Donald Trump is, of course, on trial right here in New York now, but this may be the only trial he faces before the election. This is why. The judge overseeing his classified documents trial postponed it indefinitely.

The move this morning facing new criticism from former Trump White House lawyer Ty Cobb who calls the judge's delay "a case of bias and incompetence."

CNN's Evan Perez is joining us now. Evan, this trial was supposed to start in May -- like, now -- like, this month.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR. JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah.

SIDNER: What is the judge saying about why she has postponed this indefinitely?

PEREZ: Well, Sara, look. I mean, I think this May 20 trial date -- we've all considered it to be written in invisible ink, right, because none of us really believed that the -- that this trial was going to happen in May, and now the judge has officially conceded that is not happening.

And she's also scheduled a number of hearings that mean this. These pretrial proceedings, at least, could go well into July, which makes it virtually impossible at this point for us to really think of a -- of a trial happening before the November election, which is always Donald Trump's goal, right? His goal was always to push this off and make sure that this didn't happen before the November -- before the November vote.

The judge cited a number of matters -- motions -- eight of them in all that she says need to be tackled before she can even consider setting a trial date. She also set a couple of hearings for late June on things that, frankly, were looked -- would look to us as longshots, right? There was an effort by Trump to get records from inside the administration to try to prove that this was a malicious prosecution. Also, a motion for -- to consider whether Jack Smith was even legally appointed. These are all motions that don't really normally have very good

chances. But this judge, Aileen Cannon, has decided that she wants to hold hearings on those later in June -- Sara.

SIDNER: I have a question for you. I mean, what is Jack Smith, if anything, saying about this? He has been pretty pointed about some of the decisions the judge has made in filings before.

PEREZ: Right, right. I think you might expect that the tensions that have been already long-simmering in this case are going to -- are just going to be exacerbated by this. It's a lot of frustration on the part of the Justice Department that this case should not be moving along so ploddingly slow. Every time we got to a court hearing down in Fort Pierce, Sara, we wonder whether this is the day we're going to hear the judge set a new trial date and then she doesn't do it.

And one of the reasons why there's so much frustration is a lot of speculation has been that the government could ask for her to be removed. But the problem is she doesn't have a lot of record for them to use against her. She doesn't make any rulings. She just kind of kicks the can down the road. And that's, again, what Donald Trump wants out of this case.

SIDNER: All right. And it has to be said that she was appointed by Donald Trump and you will probably see --

PEREZ: Right.

SIDNER: -- some kind of reaction coming up.

Thank you so much, Evan, for all that reporting -- Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: And joining us now is CNN legal commentator and former Trump White House lawyer, Jim Schultz. And CNN legal analyst Norm Eisen. It's good to have you guys here in the studio. Thank you so much.

Let's start with what Evan was just talking about. What do you think, Jim, of this move by the judge in Florida?

JAMES SCHULTZ, CNN LEGAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE LAWYER: So this case should have never been brought in Florida. Jack Smith made a huge error in bringing this in Florida. He should have brought it in D.C. They are -- they deal with the Classified Information Procedures Act issues all the time there.

You're going to -- you know, this judge is taking on every issue and the spoliation issues made by the defense. You're going to bring -- they're going to try to bring as much classified information as possible to the table to say that they need it for the case. And when they need it for the case, then they have to fight over, with the government, what is -- what is so classified that it can't be used in the trial. And the judge has to do a balancing test on that.

And you have a judge that's inexperienced in this kind of thing. And had it been in D.C. where we have a rocket docket in D.C., this case would probably be in trial today.

[07:35:03]

BOLDUAN: You're going to later explain spoliation to me.

But, Norm, what -- do you see this as a necessary or unnecessary delay in this calendar?

NORM EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER HOUSE JUDICIARY SPECIAL COUNSEL IN TRUMP'S FIRST IMPEACHMENT TRIAL: It's a completely unnecessary delay.

BOLDUAN: But you're dealing with classified documents. This is sticky stuff.

EISEN: We do this all the time in the District of Columbia. The SIPA procedures that are slowing the judge down. She has a whole order full of SIPA deadlines. The courts in D.C. are very experienced in handling those.

I agree with Jim. Jack Smith should have never brought this case in Florida. He had the option of bringing it in D.C. There was a pending Supreme Court case that was holding him up that if he guessed wrong the case could have been thrown out altogether. It was decided just a few days after he filed. He should have waited. It's one of his biggest mistakes in his record of prosecuting Trump.

There's no excuse for what this judge has done. I do think it's a mix of incompetence and bias. She was reversed twice by the extremely conservative 11th Circuit for interfering with the investigation when it was getting going -- getting going with very harsh words. But as Evan said, there's not enough to remove her from the case here.

This case is not going to trial in 2024.

BOLDUAN: Um-hum.

EISEN: It makes the Alvin Bragg prosecution of Trump all the more important because that may be the only criminal case we get against Trump this year.

BOLDUAN: It is.

OK, let's talk about -- let's talk about the case in New York. You guys have been watching it very closely. Norm, you've been in court.

Stormy Daniels is back on the stand again tomorrow. All -- after all that she said during direct examination and the beginning of cross- examination, what, Jim, do you think prosecutors hope the jury left the day thinking about most? And then, what do you think the defense is thinking?

SCHULTZ: One, they want to think -- they want them to think that prosecutors went too far --

BOLDUAN: That's what the -- SCHULTZ: -- in listening to some of that.

BOLDUAN: That's what the defense -- that's what the --

SCHULTZ: The defense.

BOLDUAN: -- defense wants -- that's what you --

SCHULTZ: The defense wants --

BOLDUAN: Um-hum.

SCHULTZ: They want -- they want the jury to come away with the prosecution went too far. Then they want it to come away with she had a vendetta against Trump -- and that came out in cross-examination. You're going to see more of that come Thursday. But that -- those are the two things they want them to come away with.

There is the prosecution did have a -- their argument is that this salacious testimony -- it was important to show how important it was to cover this up by Trump. They might have gone a little too far. There might be some appellate issues there.

BOLDUAN: Norm, you were in court. We know that the judge complained at one point that Donald Trump was audibly cursing and visibly shaking his head.

What did you -- how do you sum up kind of what you saw in court?

EISEN: Well, before we got the transcript and we understood what that was about, the judge, when he came back from the breaks, said to Todd Blanche have you talked to your client? And I tweeted. I was sitting there in the third row. I tweeted that must have been Trump being chastised.

We could see Trump getting more and more agitated with her testimony, particularly when Stormy revealed some details, which I agree with Jim and the judge it was unnecessary. It's not an appellate issue. It's not going to be a mistrial. You cure it on cross-examination and with a limiting instruction that the judge will give to the jury. That's being negotiated now.

BOLDUAN: Um-hum.

EISEN: We'll get that instruction when we go back tomorrow morning.

But it was too much. Trump got agitated. You can't do that. The judge got -- he got a little upset with Stormy and the prosecution at moments when they got into the salacious details, but he got far more upset with Trump, and rightly so. And Trump did stop after he was chastised.

BOLDUAN: Let me ask about one -- there were -- there were lots of moments, but one moment -- I've heard a lot of people saying that it was really bad for the prosecution when Stormy -- when Stormy Daniels -- when the defense got Stormy Daniels to admit that she hated Donald Trump during cross-examination.

Let's put the exchange up on the screen for everybody because a lot of people are saying this shows very clearly that the -- that Stormy Daniels has bias.

"Am I correct that you hate Donald Trump?"

"Yes."

"And you want him to go to jail, right?"

I'm not going to read the whole thing but it goes on and on about tweets that she would dance if he went to jail. And it goes on and on and on. But essentially, it got her to admit, which is a -- people say is a big deal -- that she hated Donald Trump and she would like to see him in jail.

Why is that surprising to people that Stormy Daniels doesn't like Donald Trump? I think that's the -- maybe the least surprising thing. She's not going to go up there and say she likes the man after everything that went down. Why is it a big deal?

[07:40:00]

SCHULTZ: It's the same thing as saying that on the first part of the testimony that Donald Trump didn't want the affair with Stormy Daniels to come out publicly, right? To come out to the general public. It's the same thing. But what they're doing is, as lawyers, creating a record in the case.

BOLDUAN: OK.

SCHULTZ: So, like they made -- the prosecution made the record in the first half of the testimony, the defense is making a record so the jury can hear it.

BOLDUAN: What do you think?

EISEN: I'm -- what is she supposed to say, Kate? I wrote that I hate him but now I love him?

BOLDUAN: Right.

EISEN: Of course, not.

BOLDUAN: Right.

EISEN: The only thing -- I've been to court thousands of times. I've been doing it for over 30 years. The only thing a jury will not forgive -- the only thing is a witness who lies. She has to be honest about that.

I've had cases where mobsters testify, hitmen testify. The jury -- sometimes they believe them, sometimes they disbelieve them. But if they're honest, particularly if you have a witness like Stormy --

BOLDUAN: Yeah.

EISEN: -- she really, I thought, showed her steel in pushing back at points of the cross-examination.

BOLDUAN: Because I was going to ask do you guys think she came across as credible? If that's -- if you're --

EISEN: I was there. I thought on the whole, the jury reaction was -- I was watching the jury.

BOLDUAN: Yeah.

EISEN: They were interested. We will not know until the verdict --

BOLDUAN: Of course, not.

EISEN: -- if they think she was credible. I thought she was a messy witness, a difficult witness, a complicated witness, but --

BOLDUAN: But?

EISEN: -- a believable witness.

BOLDUAN: Do you agree?

SCHULTZ: I think he's probably right.

BOLDUAN: OK.

SCHUTLZ: I wasn't in the courtroom but I think he's probably right.

BOLDUAN: Stand by for more because she's back on the stand tomorrow.

Thanks, guys. Great to see you -- John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. This morning, Marjorie Taylor Greene appears to be cooling but not calling off her move to oust House Speaker Mike Johnson. She's held two meetings with Johnson this week, though Johnson insists this is not a negotiation.

CNN's Lauren Fox in Washington with the latest. So where do things stand this morning, Lauren?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Johnson saying it's not a negotiation. But look, Thomas Massie and Marjorie Taylor Greene are asking for things.

They want a series of demands to be met, including they say a promise that all bills moving to the floor coming forward are going to only come to the floor if they have a majority of the House Republican Conference's support. This is known as the so-called Hastert rule in the House. Now, leadership argues that many of the bills that have come to the floor do have the majority of the majority support.

They also are demanding that all 12 appropriations bills have Republican support that they move them individually. If you remember last year, though, John, this became a major lift, in part because conservatives were the ones blocking the advancement of the series of bills that came to the floor.

They are also asking for a defunding of Jack Smith's special counsel office. That is something that they are asking for as part of those appropriations bills.

And, I mean, look, the reality is that Marjorie Taylor Greene continues to dangle the threat of a motion to vacate against Speaker Johnson.

But I talked to a number of Republicans who said that they really don't think Johnson should make any concessions, make any promises, make any compromises with Thomas Massie and Marjorie Taylor Greene because they argue that the goalpost could move in the future. They also say that it empowers just a small number of members when the majority of the conference does not have the list of demands that Marjorie Taylor Greene and Thomas Massie have.

So what this is really doing over the course of the last several days is just further revealing how divided the Republican Party is. And despite the fact that there are so many members in the conference who are united -- who are standing behind Mike Johnson -- who really want this whole episode to go away -- they also are arguing that this is a moment where Speaker Johnson has -- they have his back but they believe that Marjorie Taylor Greene needs to move on.

Now, Speaker Johnson, for his part, is making the case that this isn't a negotiation. Here he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): Well, I'm having thoughtful conversations with those two members and others about how we continue to improve the processes and keep the team together and move in the same direction. So we're going to process these ideas just like we do all ideas and (INAUDIBLE). And this is not a negotiation. I'm doing my job and one of the -- part of the job is taking suggestions and thoughtful ideas from members, and that's what we're doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOX: I talked to majority leader Steve Scalise yesterday a little bit about whether this was or wasn't a negotiation. He said look, when you have such a narrow majority, every single member matters -- John.

BERMAN: So it's a feedback. It's a feedback move more than negotiation. I get that.

All right, Lauren Fox. Thank you very much for that -- Sara.

SIDNER: All right, now for a little good stuff because we certainly need it this morning.

One longtime resident of Calhoun, Missouri is giving back to his city in a major way. Ninety-one-year-old Sam Sloan heard his local volunteer fire department was in need of an upgrade, including one of its trucks that just didn't run. So he answered the call with a $500,000 donation.

[07:45:05]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never in a million years would I -- would I ever expected anything like that for a rural fire department.

SAM SLOAN, DONATED $500,000 TO VOLUNTEER FIRE DEPARTMENT: I'm getting a lot of credit for it. But I don't know how to fix one of them things, but I know how to make a dollar.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: He certainly does. The fire chief says that money is enough to purchase three fire trucks, new equipment, and new gear for this 28-person volunteer crew. They're also planning to donate their old gear to other volunteer fire departments that need help.

Sam Sloan knows how to save his money -- $500,000, Kate --

BOLDUAN: Sara --

SIDNER: -- to the fire department.

BOLDUAN: We need to all be able to say that quote with gusto. I don't know how to fix one of those things, but I know how to make a dollar.

SIDNER: I know how to make a buck. Good for him.

BOLDUAN: That's a good one.

All right, this is wild. Wild video of a car going -- that's insane -- going airborne caught on surveillance video. This happened in Phoenix. Officers are now looking for that driver who, incredibly, was able to flee the scene.

And lawmakers are demanding answers from the Defense secretary now after a CNN investigation into what happened during the attack at the Kabal airport during the chaotic U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan.

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[07:50:34]

SIDNER: Breaking overnight, police in the nation's capital have arrested dozens of people now as they cleared a pro-Palestinian protest encampment site at George Washington University. There is the video there just before the arrests. Authorities say at least one officer used pepper spray near the areas.

This coming hours after President Biden denounced antisemitic rhetoric and hate against Jews, while Donald Trump compared the protests on campuses across the country to January 6, insisting "January 6 was nothing like this. They're ripping down all our schools, they're ripping down our institutions. They're protesting all over the place and very violently, too. They're protesting all over the place," he said. "This is a threat to democracy."

Joining me now, CNN political commentator and former Democratic state representative for South Carolina, Bakari Sellers. And former Trump senior adviser in the 2016 campaign, Jason Osborne. Gentlemen, thank you so much for being here.

Bakari, first, I just want to get your reaction to what president -- former President Trump said, making this comparison with January 6. We're starting to hear this more and more and more.

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, (D) FORMER SOUTH CAROLINA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: Well, I mean, it's a talking point and you have that during political season, AKA silly season. I think the best thing you can say about it is that it's asinine. I think that it's intellectually dishonest, but those are two words that really go hand in hand with the former president when he's making these arguments.

These protests that you see are no equivalent to trying to overturn an election. They're no equivalent to storming the Capitol. They're no equivalent to trying to harm United States members of Congress or the Senate, or threaten to hang them, or running with Confederate flags, or stealing laptops, or stealing lecterns. I mean, they're -- this is just not that.

We've had protests in this country as long as this protest -- as long as this country has actually been in existence. And you're seeing that with young people today on college campuses around the country. Now, you can disagree with what they're protesting for, but you have to understand that these protests are actually healthy for our country.

SIDNER: We have seen student protests throughout time --

SELLERS: Correct.

SIDNER: -- really, that has been part of the American way.

Jason, I just want to get your reaction. Is this just simply red meat for the base for Donald Trump? I mean, what's he trying to do here using this language?

JASON OSBORNE, FORMER TRUMP 2016 CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISER: Yeah. Well, first off, I don't see the equivalence --

SIDNER: Right.

OSBORNE: -- to January 6 in these protests. But, yeah, it is I think red meat in the -- in the sense that when you're looking at some of these protests and they're -- some of the interviews, they don't even know what they're protesting against for the most part, right? And so that I think becomes part of the Trump message, which is these folks are just out there protesting for nothing other than to get attention. And then, they're now having to face consequences on it. And so, I do think that Trump is going to heighten it as it continues on. I think he hopes that -- quite frankly, I think he hopes that these protests continue because then, that gets him more attention on that as opposed to some of the trials and stuff that he's going through.

SIDNER: And I do want to say I did -- I have talked to some of the students and they do know what they're protesting. They sometimes don't know the nuances though of what has happened --

SELLERS: Right.

SIDNER: -- in the region, and that has been an issue.

I do want to get to what President Biden has said. He made a speech about antisemitism as the world marked Holocaust Remembrance Day.

SELLERS: Right.

SIDNER: And here's a little of what he said. He didn't touch that much on the campus protests, which has been a problem for him politically. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But there is no place on any campus in America, any place in America for antisemitism or hate speech, or threats of violence of any kind, whether against Jews or anyone else. Violent attacks, destroying property is not peaceful protest. It's against the law. And my commitment to the safety of the Jewish people, the security of Israel, and its right to exist as an independent Jewish state is ironclad even when we disagree.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: Just a question for you, Bakari. How do you think Biden has handled this because he is under enormous pressure --

SELLERS: Yeah.

SIDNER: -- from young people, in particular, who really do not like the way that he has handled the war?

SELLERS: I actually think that he -- I can't be critical of the president on this particular issue. I think that the speech he gave yesterday was pitch perfect.

I think you are seeing a rise of antisemitism in these places. I think it's one thing to protest the fact that you have a reaction of a visceral reaction to what you view to be a disproportionate use of force in Gaza. Too many men, women, and children -- innocent lives being taken. That's one thing.

But also, understanding that Israel has a fundamental right to exist. That she has a right to protect herself. That October 7 was one of the most grave, despicable days we've ever seen in this country -- well, in that country's history.

[07:55:06]

And so, I think the president has a balance and what his goal is is to have a cessation of fire. That's his goal. That's his overarching goal. He understands that if he focuses on that goal and he's able to bring peace to the region where you can have further discussions -- if he's able to bring hostages back home and stop firing and bombing in Gaza, then the protests here would quell. And that will be a political win but it would also be a win of just pure humanity. And so, he's really focused on the goal.

And the hard part for us having this discussion is I can't really tell you what the CIA director is doing.

SIDNER: Right.

SELLERS: I can't tell you what Jake Sullivan is doing. I can't tell you what Tony Blinken is doing. I just know they're working towards a goal. But it's very difficult to understand what they're doing in Egypt, what they're doing in Qatar. And that lack of a line of sight means that you have to have faith in this president and understanding that he values the relationship with Israel.

SIDNER: How difficult is this when you look at this? And how are Republicans exploiting this because the ceasefire is a problem? It is not happening yet and they are still discussing this, but talks have broken down once again.

OSBORNE: Yeah. I -- and I know this is going to sound controversial and I don't mean -- it's not necessarily what I believe in. But to your point about what the Trump message should be on some of this is that I do think that Biden is running the risk of sounding a little bit like Trump did in Charlottesville where there's people -- good people on both sides. And I think you're probably going to see the Trump folks start to push that a little bit more -- that message -- like you can't have it both ways here.

Then you get to the issue of what is it that the Israelis want and what is it that Trump and the base want. And, of course, they want the fighting to stop. But they also tend to see that Hamas and some of these other folks are actually wanting a ceasefire -- a true ceasefire.

When they fire rockets into Israel and they've got all these other allies that are coming in, it makes it very hard I think for Trump's base to actually come over to the Biden mentality or messaging of let's have a ceasefire and end all this endless suffering. Because you have Netanyahu and all these other folks saying if we stop, they are going to continue doing what they're doing and they're not helping themselves and helping, quite frankly, the Biden message.

I mean, it's a thin line I think that he has to walk here.

SIDNER: Can I just ask you guys one more thing? The New York Times -- and this has nothing to do with -- well, it has to do with the presidential election -- has just come out with this extraordinary, bizarre article on RFK. And they're reporting that doctors -- in a deposition, that RFK said doctors found a worm in his brain that had eaten part of his brain and then died there.

What -- I mean, you laugh but, I mean, what --

SELLERS: Jason?

SIDNER: -- might this mean? I mean, what might this mean to an election hearing that he said this in a deposition.

SELLERS: It probably means -- and one of the things that I tell my clients all the time is try not to go into depositions high. That's usually what I would suggest. And I would --

OSBORNE: That's a -- that's a good --

SELLERS: That would be my words of wisdom.

OSBORNE: Right.

SELLERS: I -- you know, I have political issues with RFK, but this is just a little bit beyond my pail of expertise.

SIDNER: I mean, if that's true --

OSBORNE: I don't even know what to say.

SIDNER: If a worm ate his brain --

OSBORNE: Yeah.

SIDNER: -- which is mind-blowing --

OSBORNE: Yeah.

SIDNER: -- on so many levels -- I mean, everybody's talking about the cognitive capabilities of Biden, the cognitive capabilities of Donald Trump --

SELLERS: How did the worm get there?

SIDNER: RIGHT.

SELLERS: I just have a lot of questions.

OSBORNE: Right. I mean, that's one of those times where as a comms person you kind of deflect and say how bout them Rangers, you know? I mean, you just deflect and you go to something else, right? I don't even know how to answer something like that, so --

SIDNER: I had to bring it up because it is just so mind-blowing.

OSBORNE: Right.

SIDNER: Jason Osborne, Bakari Sellers, thank you so much. Thanks for putting him on the -- on the spot for that one. All right. How bout them Rangers?

Over to you, John.

BERMAN: All right. This morning, eight Republican members of Congress want answers from Defense Sec. Lloyd Austin. They are urging him to explain discrepancies between CNN reporting about the ISIS-K attack during the evacuation of the Kabul Airport. That attack led to the deaths of 13 U.S. servicemembers and 170 others.

And the conclusions of the discrepancy was between the Pentagon report or the CNN report and the conclusions of two Pentagon investigations. At the center of that reporting, new marine GoPro camera video obtained by CNN, which revealed many more episodes of gunfire than the Pentagon has ever admitted.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This long burst is about 17 shots, bringing us a total of 20. Retailing (PH) shots fired and episodes of fire based on two forensic analyses on the screen. You cannot see who is still firing here and we never see Marines or anyone firing in this video.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mother (bleep).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, with us now is CNN chief international security correspondent Nick Paton Walsh. Nick, talk to us about what these U.S. members of Congress are after this morning.

WALSH: Yeah, wanting answers from Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin as to discrepancies between the video you saw there from part of our reporting a couple of weeks ago and what they'd been brief by the Pentagon on a number of occasions.

[08:00:00]