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Former Trump Attorney Michael Cohen Cross-Examined by Donald Trump's Defense during Hush Money Criminal Trial; President Biden Says He Will Debate Donald Trump Twice; New Blood Test May Identify Preeclampsia Risk Sooner. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired May 15, 2024 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

MAX FOSTER, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: And this is the result, a massive manhunt, hundreds of officers trying to track them down. And to think that there's a camera as well. And as you can see, John, it's all in broad daylight around 11:00 in the morning. So a very scary situation, and obviously thoughts with the prison officers there. There are big demonstrations today about the safety that they're afforded in these situations. Amra was on his way to court, by the way, on a burglary charge.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: What a brazen, brazen attack. All right, Max Foster, keep us posted on the developments here. Thank you very much.

And we have a brand new hour with new news coming in. CNN NEWS CENTRAL starts right now.

Donald Trump's former fixer blasted by the defense in a fiery cross- examination. Trump's lawyers are using a day off today to prepare another round of tough questioning for the man who says the former president plotted a scheme to cover up a hush money payment to a porn star.

Now with less than six months to go until the election, President Biden saying the poll numbers aren't accurate, but should Democrats be more concerned?

Plus, the future of human creativity up in the air. Google showing off new A.I. features that many online publishers fear could put them out of business.

I'm Sara Sidner with John Berman. Kate is on assignment. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

BERMAN: So this morning, what will Donald Trump's lawyers ask next? What will Michael Cohen say next? And how much more explosive could this cross-examination get as everyone really spends the next 24 hours preparing for the new round?

With me, CNN's Brynn Gingras and CNN legal analyst Jennifer Rodgers. Brynn, first to you. Thank you, first of all, for letting me join you outside the courthouse yesterday. You hosted me down there. Look, what were your main takeaways from the cross-examination which began really with a bang?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It did begin with a bang, but I feel like they're just getting started, too, right. We do know that they are actually going to spend the whole time tomorrow likely doing cross-examination. Essentially Todd Blanche was using Michael Cohen's words from his book, from his podcast to attack him and get him to show for jurors what they believe, that he's profiting off of Donald Trump, that he's out for vengeance, that he just really has flipped on him and wants everything bad to happen to Donald Trump. I think at some point during the trial he called Trump with his own words again, boorish, cartoon misogynist, a Cheeto-dusted cartoon villain. And Donald Trump -- or rather Michael Cohen just said, yes, that sounds like something I would say.

But he's really trying to -- they're trying to show that he's really made a living off of Donald Trump. And they also went back in time when he was complimentary to his former boss. And Michael Cohen said this, that's when I was knee deep in the cult of Donald Trump. So that was pretty interesting, too. Obviously trying to show some flip- flopping here.

Prior to that we did here the prosecution wrap up that whole narrative that he was on the stand for about eight hours going through all of what we have been hearing from witnesses before, corroborating what we have heard, and essentially talked about the moment that he did turn on Donald Trump. It was after that FBI race. They went through his criminal history.

And at the end of it, there was a moment where the prosecution says, did you regret it? And this is how Michael Cohen responded. He says, "I don't regret working with the Trump Organization. As I expressed before, some very interesting, great times. But to keep the loyalty and to do the things that he had asked me to do, I violated my moral compass, and I suffered the penalty, as has my family."

So that was a really striking moment, and maybe somewhat credible to jurors. We'll have to find out.

SIDNER: Jennifer, I'm curious what you thought of how he answered these questions. I mean, the cross-examination was brutal. Just one thing after the other. They did not go in sort of succession as to how things happened. How did Michael Cohen handle this?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I thought generally he did pretty well. There was a little bit of fighting with Todd Blanche about, is it a lie, is it inaccurate. Those sorts of things don't do well for the witness, right? You don't want to fight. But generally, I thought he did well. He kept his cool. He answered the questions. He was firm about what he wanted to say.

And I thought that Todd got into the weeds a little bit too much, to be honest with you. I think if it goes all day tomorrow, that's a mistake. Cross is best used as a blunt force instrument. You want to get in, be brutal, but be quick about it. The longer it drags out, the jury loses interest. And that's not what you want on cross.

BERMAN: I asked this before to Joey. I'm curious, if this jury does believe Michael Cohen, has the defense yet done anything to get their client a not guilty verdict? All they've focused on is Michael Cohen is a bad guy. They haven't talked about the case.

RODGERS: Well, if they believe Michael Cohen, it's over. It doesn't matter what Todd Blanche does, to be honest with you, because Michael Cohen makes the case.

[08:05:01]

But there are some substantive things I think they can do. They elicited, for example, how much Michael Cohen was making. And when you add together his salary plus bonus, it's not far off from $420,000. So I expect them to argue, listen, Trump didn't know. He is signing these checks. He is still his personal lawyer. He's still going to be paying him. That goes to the intent.

But the question is a strategic one. Do you do that in cross tomorrow, or do you wait for the opportunity to do it in closings, because if they do it tomorrow, then prosecutors can come back and tried to clarify, no, no, here's how you know that that was for the payback and not for a salary. So he has some strategic decisions to make tomorrow. We know they'll continue to hammer away at the bias points. But honestly, you start to lose steam when you do that over and over again. The jury has heard it. They're ready to move on.

SIDNER: I can't keep stop thinking about what's going to happen, I know, after Cohen, even though this has been really explosive. I mean, what does the defense do? Who do they call? Do they put on a case, or do they say, look, we feel like we proved it with our cross- examination?

RODGERS: I suspect they won't do anything. They're certainly not going to call Donald Trump. The one thing they might do is this election lawyer expert to talk about whether that was a crime or not. That's the only thing I can see --

BERMAN: You got some reporting on what's going to happen after Cohen, yes?

GINGRAS: Yes. So we expect the prosecution to rest. And then, yes, we'll have to see who the defense calls. I agree with you. I don't think they're going to be calling Donald Trump. I do think it's still interesting, we talked about this yesterday, is how do you fill that void of Allen Weisselberg? Obviously, he's not going to be called to the stand. I think as a juror, your hearing Allen Weisselberg talk about all the --

SIDNER: See all the notes.

GINGRAS: All the calculations. He's the one that made the notes. Donald Trump told him to talk to Allen. Like, who is this Allen Weisselberg, if I'm a juror. So I do think that's something that I don't know where you go from there. BERMAN: I just want to read one more exchange. This was indirect

yesterday. Michael Cohen still faced questions from prosecutors before Todd Blanche started swearing in front of the jury yesterday. And this was an exchange that gets to the heart of the case, and clearly the prosecution wanted another bite at this apple after their first day. So the prosecutor, Susan Hoffinger asks, "Why, in fact, did you pay the money to Stormy Daniels?" Michael Cohen says, "To ensure that the story would not come out, would not affect Mr. Trump's chances of becoming president United States." Hoffinger says, "If not for the campaign, Mr. Cohen, would you have paid that money to Stormy Daniels?" Cohen says, "No, ma'am." Todd Blanche, the defense attorney, says "Objection." The judge says, "Overruled. You can answer." Cohen says "No, ma'am." And then Hoffinger asks, "At whose direction and on whose behalf did you commit that crime?" Cohen says "On behalf of Mr. Trump."

I feel like those are important words legally from the prosecution, and the fact they did it on day two with Michael Cohen tells us something. What is that?

RODGERS: Well, they go through the story, right? And you get the pieces that you need to put it all together in summations, but you want to also kind of sum it up at the end of your direct for the jury, just so there's no mistake here, right? Michael Cohen's role is to give the story, but also to say, I did this, but I only did it because of Trump and at Trump's direction, right. We need to have Donald Trump's intent, not Michael Cohen's, to find a conviction here.

So that's what they're doing. Just put it all together for the jury. Lest there be any doubt, this is why I did it. And then they can hand him over for cross.

SIDNER: Jennifer Rodgers, Brynn Gingras, I know you've been on this the whole time, and there is plenty more to go. Cross will continue tomorrow. I'm sure it will be heated. All right, thank you so much.

This morning, Secretary of State Antony Blinken is in Ukraine vowing unwavering support as Russia looks to make ground with intensifying attacks in the Kharkiv region.

And where is Rudy Giuliani? Process servers trying to track down the Trump ally to serve him, but they're having no luck.

And the top journalist and now a "Sports Illustrated" swimsuit model Gayle King getting her own cover. We have all of that coming up.

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SIDNER: All right, we have some breaking news for you. The Biden campaign says, it is willing to debate Donald Trump, but under certain terms. CNN's Arlette Saenz and Jeff Zeleny joining us now. Arlette, what are they saying about this debate that Biden is now saying he'll do? ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Sara, there is

major news from the Biden campaign this morning as they are saying that they are willing to debate former president Donald Trump two times. And campaign -- one of the top campaign officials, Jen O'Malley Dillon, sent a letter to the Commission on Presidential Debates, saying that President Biden will not participate in the debates that they currently have scheduled.

Now, Biden himself released a video just moments ago where he said that he will debate Trump two times in this upcoming election. Take a listen to what the president had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, (D) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Donald Trump lost two debates to me in 2020. Since then, he hasn't shown up for debates. Now he's acting like he wants to debate me again. Well, make my day, pal. I'll even do it twice. Plus pick the dates, Donald. I hear you're free on Wednesdays.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAENZ: Now, the Biden campaign is saying that they want to have debates held earlier in the process. This a letter that was sent to the Commission on Presidential Debates from Jen O'Malley Dillon outlines a requests for the president and Trump to debate twice in this election cycle, once in June, once former President Trump's a criminal trial up in New York ends, and then another time in early September.

One of the items that they are pointing to is the fact that they want to have these debates play out before early voting begins and ends in many of these key battleground states. Now, Biden has been saying that he is willing to debate Trump. Just last week here at the White House, he was asked by a reporter when he would do hold that debate, and he said set it up. In an interview with Howard Stern just last month, he said that he's happy to debate Trump, but really didn't get into the details of exactly when.

But we will see what the Trump campaign has to say going forward. Trump himself has also called for earlier debates. The Republican National Committee had previously voted not to participate in CPD debates. But certainly, even as the Biden campaign is putting forward some suggestions, this will all have to be agreed to by the Trump campaign as well. But President Biden in this new video this morning making clear that he wants to debate Trump twice even as the CPD has scheduled three debates to occur in the fall.

[08:15:00]

SIDNER: Jeff Zeleny, I gasped when I saw the attack that Biden just made saying, "I heard you're free on Wednesdays," to former President Donald Trump, who is off court on Wednesdays.

What do you make of this? And what might this mean? Because they are, on the one hand, they're saying yes, we want to do two debates, but we don't want to do what is already potentially in place.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Sara, you picked up on the shade there that President Biden was throwing to his rival, but let's translate that a little bit.

What this means is, as Arlette was just explaining, this is very significant. It means that one central question has been hanging over this rematch, are there going to be debates? And President Biden now firmly saying, yes, he will agree to two debates in June and early September. We will see what the Trump campaign says to this.

But at every recent Trump rally, there has been an empty podium that says, anytime any place. So Donald Trump is out there saying he will debate.

Interesting in this letter as we are just reading it here from Jen O'Malley Dillon, a top campaign adviser sort of outlining all of this, also saying one-on-one debates only, so that would exclude if this is -- if this comes to pass, that would exclude a debate with Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., and of course that is a central question as well hanging over this campaign. Is this going to be a one-on-one contest or is this going to be a debate where he is allowed to participate?

So all of these things, of course, will have to be worked out, but very significant the timing of this. And one of the reasons for that, really the timing of voting has changed in America. Voters now were going to the polls much earlier in some respects, a month before the traditional election day, if you will.

So the earlier schedule that was laid out by the Commission on Presidential Debates, I was just looking it up, the earliest one was supposed to be September 16th, followed by September 25th with the final debate on October 9th.

Now, under this new plan that President Biden's team is proposing, the debates would be over by then. One in June, one in early September, so we will see how the invitations for these debates come forward if the Trump campaign agrees, but those are the significant things.

Earlier debates and a one-on-one debate with that shade thrown in, "We hear you're free on Wednesdays," perhaps a bit gratuitous because they said after the trial is over here, but that is certainly the state of things here.

The debate over debates is just the beginning, but it looks like we likely will have debates in this presidential campaign -- Sara.

SIDNER: I think we can expect a response in three, two, one from Donald Trump on social media, at least.

Arlette Saenz and Jeff Zeleny, thank you so much for that new reporting. Again, were just hearing this breaking news that Joe Biden -- President Joe Biden says he will debate Donald Trump twice, but he wants to be one-on-one and there are some other conditions -- John.

BERMAN: As soon as June, which is remarkable and I have to say also, I am not sure that was shade as much as like a full moment of totality. That was a full scale blackout from President Biden toward Donald Trump there in that video.

What is the state of the race right now? Perhaps what's the background to this challenge from President Biden to Donald Trump. By that, I mean, where did the poll stand right now?

With us, CNN senior data reporter, Harry Enten.

And Harry, look, you've caused a little bit of a stir --

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: A little bit.

BERMAN: -- on social media the last few days, merely by reporting what the swing-state polling has shown, which is President Biden trailing --

ENTEN: Yes.

BERMAN: -- Donald Trump in the key swing states. How much can things change between now and then?

ENTEN: Yes, a lot. I am not sure how much can change between now and June, but there is a lot that can change between now and the general election.

So I just want to go back through history and note, polls are a snapshot in time, all right. So I went back since 1972. How far are the polls off at this point?

On average, they're off, get this, by six points. They've been off by as large as 15 points. Michael Dukakis was ahead of George HW Bush at this point in 1988, by high single-digits, it was actually George HW Bush who won by high single digits and keep in mind, Trump is only up by a point at this particular junction.

So the fact is, the polls can shift a lot. Yes, Joe Biden is in trouble, but we will see where we are a month, two months, three months, five months, six months down the road.

BERMAN: When it comes to battleground polls in general, how accurate are they?

ENTEN: Yes, so this is looking at the national polls at this point in time. What if we looked at the battleground polls on the day of the election? All right, so go back again since 1972, they are off by an average of four points. They're off by an average of four points.

In 2020, they were a little larger. The error was a little larger, it was five points. And of course, most of those polls underestimated Donald Trump. The key thing to keep in mind here, in those pivotal battleground states in the Great Lakes -- Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin, Donald Trump is ahead, but only by between one and two points.

[08:25:06] So yes, you would consider him favored, but if there is one lesson

we've learned over the last few cycles, John, it is do not take polls to the bank, especially when the margins are as close as they are right now.

BERMAN: And who do the polls tend to be wrong for?

ENTEN: Right. So one of the chief complaints that the Biden and the Democrats was in 2022, the polls underestimated Democrats, right? In 2020, it was Republicans; in 2022, Joe Biden and the Democrats like to argue that the polls underestimated Democrats.

Now that was true in the key battleground states of Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin, those major races. The polls on average underestimate the Democratic candidates by about five points.

But if you look nationally, look at the national house vote, the polls actually underestimated Republicans by about two points. So I am not necessarily sure you could look at 2022 and argue that the polls will somehow this time underestimate Joe Biden.

The fact is, the poll, is John, go back and forth. They go back and forth within a cycle, and they go back and forth when you compare over a bunch of years.

BERMAN: Harry Enten, great to see you this morning. I have to say, we are going to have much more on the stunning political development.

ENTEN: Oh, yes.

BERMAN: President Biden challenging Donald Trump to a debate next month, as soon as next month, which would be by my count here, the earliest general election debate we've ever had.

ENTEN: Absolutely. You know, you go back to 1980, the one debate occurred in late October, I believe.

BERMAN: Where it was months before even the convention. So history making there -- Sara.

SIDNER: All right, coming up, a brand new test for life-threatening pregnancy complication now available. How it could help women get ahead of preeclampsia.

And she didn't get the rose, but now she is getting another shot at love as the first Golden Bachelorette. Her exclusive interview with CNN ahead.

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[08:25:59]

SIDNER: This morning, a new blood test may be able to help detect the common and dangerous pregnancy complication in the first trimester. It's called preeclampsia, a type of high blood pressure that can be life-threatening during pregnancy. CNN's Jacqueline Howard has the details for us.

What can you tell us about this new test that is now available to the public?

JACQUELINE HOWARD, CNN HEALTH REPORTER: Sara, the company, Labcorp, released this new task, just this morning and what we know about it, this isn't to diagnose preeclampsia; instead, it is done to assess someone's risk of developing preeclampsia during the course of their pregnancy.

And because this test can be done in the first trimester, that's what really sets it apart as helping people evaluate their risk.

Now, what we know about it, it comes with the list price of about $240.00. That's the cost without insurance, and Labcorp says it has 90 percent sensitivity, so that means it can accurately identify someone at high-risk of preeclampsia about 90 percent of the time, and your doctor would have to order this test for you.

So in a doctor's visit, you and your physician would talk about your risk, how you're feeling during your pregnancy, your risk factors, and if they think this test could benefit you, then they would order it.

And how it works, it looks at four data points; two are biomarkers in the blood, the third data point is a blood pressure measurement, and the fourth data point is taken from an ultrasound. It assesses those data points and then presents an estimated risk assessment.

Now, Sara, I did speak with the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists about this, and they said this test does not change current clinical guidance around preeclampsia, but knowing your risk early does come with a benefit because if you do have high risk, you can then plan for potential complications.

Like, you can have more doctor visits. You can check your blood pressure at home potentially, or if you are seen as a candidate, your doctor might recommend for you to take a low-dose aspirin to reduce your risk.

So that's the conversation we are hearing around this new screening tool that was just released today.

SIDNER: So what makes someone at higher risk, for example, for preeclampsia?

HOWARD: The risk factors we know, if you have a family history of preeclampsia, if you have obesity, if you personally had a history of high blood pressure before pregnancy, and also preeclampsia is associated with other risk factors as well.

So every person is different and it really is a conversation you have to have with your doctor about your own personal medical and family history and what screening option like this could mean for you.

SIDNER: All right, Jacqueline Howard, thank you so much for that new information for us this morning -- John.

BERMAN: All right, the breaking news just minutes ago, President Biden challenge Donald Trump to a debate in weeks, just weeks from now.

We are standing by for reaction from the Trump campaign. We are also standing by for new key data on inflation, which way is it headed?

This report is going to have a huge impact on the economy, 90 seconds away.

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