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Biden Issues Debate Challenge to Trump; Trump Says He's Ready and Willing to Debate Biden; Defense Grills Cohen in Cross- Examination; Biden and Trump to Debate. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired May 15, 2024 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00]

SEN. MARK WARNER (D-VA): Elections really, at this point, start to realize the kind of really incredibly bitter grievance-ridden language that President Trump has been using, he doesn't lay out any vision for the future of the country. It's all about him and his - his enemies, real and imagined. And I think the more that gets out there in a debate would be a good format. I think that would be good for President Biden.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Senator Mark Warner from Virginia. Mr. Chairman, thank you so much for being with us this morning. Come back again soon.

WARNER: Thank you, John.

BERMAN: We are getting some new information about Donald Trump's response to this debate challenge.

A new hour of NEWS CENTRAL begins right now.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Make my day, pal. President Biden challenging former President Trump to a debate. Maybe even two. Donald Trump has just accepted. What he's saying about the challenge.

Court, of course, is dark today for Donald Trump as the defense gears up for round two of the contentious cross-examination of Michael Cohen. The explosive testimony so far, and what we could learn tomorrow from Trump's former attorney and fixer.

Also, TikTok creators fighting back, ready to wage a legal battle against the U.S. government to stop the app from being banned. We'll speak with one of the TikTok influencers involved in that lawsuit.

I'm Sara Sidner, with John Berman, Kate is on assignment. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

A challenge. I hear you're free on Wednesdays. President Biden throwing a big, political punch this morning and challenging Donald Trump to two debates, but with a condition. And Trump just accepted, but with a few other choice words.

CNN's Arlette Saenz and Alayna Treene is joining us now for more. First to you, Arlette. What are the Biden campaigns conditions? And

again, we will be talking about how Donald Trump just responded online to this challenge.

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Sara, President Joe Biden's campaign is presenting a major shakeup to the way these debates are conducted, with the president saying that he is ready to debate Trump two times. And the campaign saying that they will forego the traditional debates held by the Commission on Presidential Debates. Jen O'Malley Dillon, the Biden campaign chair, sent a letter to the commission today informing them that they will not participate in the three debates currently scheduled in the fall. And instead, the Biden campaign is proposing two dates for debates. One in late June and another in early September.

Biden spoke a little bit about his challenge to Trump in a video posted on social media. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Donald Trump lost two debates to me in 2020. And since then he hasn't shown up for a debate. Now he's acting like he wants to debate me again. Well, make my day, pal. I'll even do it twice. So, let's pick the dates, Donald. I hear you're free on Wednesdays.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAENZ: Now, just to run through some of the details of Biden's proposal. The campaign is proposing that there be two debates, one in late June, after former President Donald Trump's criminal trial in New York City concludes, and then another in early September. They also are proposing a vice presidential debates in late July after the Republican National Convention takes place. They want these debates to be one-on-one, in essence eliminating the prospect of a third-party candidate like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. potentially participating in a debate.

And importantly, they are foregoing this Commission on Presidential Debates format. Instead, they want to organize these debates with the broadcast networks. One argument they're making is that there should be a broadcast network who conducted a debate in the 2016 Republican primary and the 2020 Democratic primary so that both candidates have participated in those debates so - potentially to eliminate any, you know, opposition to organizations that could propose debates going forward.

Now, one of the campaigns arguments is that they believe that they need to have these earlier debates because early voting is already getting underway when the CPD debates are currently scheduled to be held. In this letter to the campaign - to the Commission on Presidential Debates. Jen O'Malley Dillon also talks about how some of these debates have turned into entertainment spectacles. They want to eliminate that possibility. Instead, going back to models where these debates are taking place between two candidates and a moderator in a television studio. Of course, all of these details are simply just a proposal from the Biden campaign and it is still something that Trump's campaign would need to agree to. But the Biden campaign is laying out their terms for what they are hoping will be two debates but could start in just a matter of weeks.

SIDNER: All right, literally in a matter of weeks, in June, I think, is what the president said.

[09:05:02]

All right, Alayna Treene, what are you hearing from Trump's campaign? I know he has just gone online and respond to this. But those were some pretty tough words and some shade thrown at him, saying, I'm sure you're free on Wednesdays, I hear you're free on Wednesdays, which, by the way, is the day when court is dark in his criminal case.

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: That's right. And Donald Trump had some pretty tough words for Joe Biden as well. We just got a response from him on Truth Social. I'm going to quickly read for you just some of what he said. But the crux of it is that he accepts.

He wrote, quote, "Crooked Joe Biden is the worst debater I have ever faced." The post goes on to say, "I am ready and willing to debate crooked Joe at the two proposed times in June and September. I would strongly recommend more than two debates and, for excitement purposes, a very large venue." It goes on to say, "just tell me when. I'll be there. Let's get ready to rumble."

Now, I also spoke with a senior advisor shortly after this proposal was publicized, Sara, and they said they're still going over the terms. Obviously, they need to work out the exact details of this. But they are very eager to have this matchup between Donald Trump and Joe Biden.

And its interesting because some of the things that Joe Biden and his team are pushing for in this proposal are the same things that the Trump campaign has argued for. One is that they also want earlier debates. They think that they need to have these sooner before voters can actually start going to the poll and counting for early voting. The other thing is, they argue that they don't really care, from my conversations with them, who is the one holding these debates, whether it's the Commission for Presidential Debates, or whether it's a network, they are eager to have this matchup on stage between the two men.

Now, I also want to point out that, remember back in 2020, we saw Donald Trump and Joe Biden on the debate stage then. And if you remember, Donald Trump was very aggressive. He repeatedly cut Joe Biden off, barely let him get a word in. And we saw, shortly after that debate, the polls actually fell for Donald Trump. It boosted Joe Biden's poll numbers.

However, when I talked to Donald Trump's campaign, and this is something that both campaign managers Chris Lacivita and Susie Wiles believe, is that they think it's entirely different type of scenario this time around. They think that Joe Biden is a much weaker debater. They think he's more feeble now and they're hoping that having these two men on stage will show that contrast.

So, from all of my conversations with the Trump campaign, they are genuine and sincere in their desire to have these debates. They think that Joe Biden will appear like the weaker candidate if they can get these two men on stage.

Sara.

SIDNER: It's just - it's interesting the language that is being used. Let's get ready to rumble. You know, make my day, pal.

TREENE: Right.

SIDNER: This is like WWE speak in these debates. We will have to wait and see, but it has been proposed and accepted by the two candidates who are the front runners at this point. So, we'll have to wait and see.

Alayna Treene, thank you so much for your reporting there.

John.

BERMAN: Somehow I think it might be more complicated than just this.

SIDNER: Yes.

BERMAN: We will see, though. We'll bring you more information as it comes in.

As President Biden just noted there, Donald Trump is free on Wednesdays, at least right now. That's because his criminal trial here in New York is dark on Wednesdays. But tomorrow, tomorrow morning, Michael Cohen will be back on the stand facing cross-examination from Trump's lawyers in this case.

With me now, CNN Brynn - CNN's Brynn Gingras.

Thank you so much for being here.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

BERMAN: And taking me so seriously.

Look, we left with Todd Blanche, Donald Trump's lawyer, midway through his cross-examine of Michael Cohen. What more does he have to do tomorrow?

GINGRAS: I think he was actually even just getting started. We're hearing the he actually will probably be doing his cross even into tomorrow afternoon when court resumes. We really heard him use Michael Cohen's own words to attack Donald Trump, right? We heard some really interesting color inside the courtroom. Things like Boris (ph) cartoon misogynist is what Cohen has called Trump, or a Cheeto-dusted cartoon villain. And Michael Cohen's response to all that was, yes, sounds like something I would say. Didn't really get flustered on the stand.

Essentially, the defense trying to paint Michael Cohen as someone who wants revenge against the former president, but also has made a lot of money because of the president. Got him to admit that he uses his name in every single podcast. He sells merchandise. So that was just, again, the start. We really didn't get into the crux of the case, which you have pointed out with our legal experts. I mean when are we going to get to that? That is the question.

However, on the prosecution's side, they wrapped up their case in a bit of a bow, and they started to question him about his flip-flopping in the past, about his feelings about Trump, about him lying to Congress, all the criminal - you know, his guilty pleas, everything that they expect the defense will get to.

I want to bring up a point when after Michael Cohen's home got rated, that was a pivotal moment in Michael Cohen's life, and they addressed that on prosecution. He said, after that happened in 2018, he received a phone call from President Trump in response to me leaving a message for him to call me. I wanted, obviously, him to know what was taking place.

[09:10:02]

And he said to me, don't worry, I am the president of the United States. There is no - there is nothing here. Everything is going to be OK. Stay tough. You are going to be OK.

And, obviously, that was a big deal because we've heard the president described as sort of a mafia boss, sending signals that, you know, don't flip on me. Of course, that's not what happened. Michael Cohen said he had a moral compass and he finally kind of went about his way.

So, there - there was a lot that the prosecution got to. I still think there's a lot the defense has to get to. We expect, again, them to take all day tomorrow. Then we'll see some direct. And then it's possible the prosecution rests.

BERMAN: Yes, the prosecution said they don't have any more witnesses here.

GINGRAS: No.

BERMAN: So, we could get a real sense of the timeline, the rest of the timeline very, very soon.

GINGRAS: Yes.

BERMAN: Brynn Gingras, thank you so much for being here this morning.

GINGRAS: Yes.

BERMAN: Sara.

SIDNER: All right, joining us now, CNN's senior legal analyst and former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, Elie Honig.

Elie, I know you've been watching all of these details very closely. How has cross-examination gone so far? The way it began was startling because it wasn't about Donald Trump, it was actually the attorney asking Michael Cohen about what he thought about the attorney himself.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Sara, I think so far the cross exam has been lackluster. I think its lacked direction and I think it's lacked punch. And that's a perfect example.

The first two questions that Todd Blanche asked right out of the gate were both objection sustained. The first one, as you said, was irrelevant. What Michael Cohen thinks about the lawyer has nothing to do with this case. What Michael Cohen thinks about the defendant, Donald Trump, is very relevant to this case.

And then Todd Blanche asked the question about some comments, some bizarre comments Michael Cohen had made publicly about the jury, which was also sustained. So, you never want to stumble out of the block going zero for two.

I re-read the transcript last night, Sara. There are some important points that are starting to shine through that were not really hammered home that I think they're going to need to focus on tomorrow. But there are long stretches of that cross that I think are more or less pointless. The whole thing about, you used to really like and respect Donald Trump. OK, I mean, fine, do it in a couple questions, but it goes on for pages and pages. So, I think Todd Blanche needs to focus up here and hit the high points.

SIDNER: I'm curious about timing. What you would change about the cross for tomorrow. And if you would go long, because we're expecting that they may go a lot longer.

HONIG: Here's what I would do. There are two huge areas that you want to drive home to the jury. One, this guy hates Donald Trump with every fiber of his being, wants to see him rot in prison.

Now, they did do some of that yesterday, but really only sort of in passing, I would drive that home. I would want the jury to think, this is a person who is obsessed and possessed with taking down Donald Trump.

And, two, all the lies. I mean Michael Cohen has lied to Congress, to DOJ, to the FEC, to banks, to the IRS, to his family, to everyone you can name. Now, I suspect they haven't gotten there yet. I mean they're definitely going to spend a lot of time tomorrow on the lies. But, again, that was only sort of loosely brushed by.

So, I would be thematic. Every question out of my mouth would be, he's a liar. He hates the defendant. You cannot take his word.

As for how long it takes, I don't think longer is necessarily better. I would take as much time as it took to drive that home. I mean a full day of cross is a lot, Sara. Obviously, this is the key moment of the trial. We do expect Todd Blanche to take most or all of the day. SIDNER: Yes. And then there will be redirect. And we will have to see if that is when the prosecution rests. But a lot more to go for tomorrow. I know you will be sticking around for that and watching every detail.

Elie Honig, thank you so much for joining us this morning. I really appreciate it.

HONIG: Thanks, Sara. All right.

SIDNER: John.

BERMAN: All right, happening now, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken is leaving Ukraine after promising more U.S. weapons. His trip comes as Russia is making significant gains around the second most populous city in Ukraine.

TikTok creators suing the U.S. government, trying to stop a ban on the popular app.

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[09:18:52]

BERMAN: All right, the breaking news this morning, President Biden, moments ago, challenged Donald Trump to debate as soon as next month. This would be by far the earliest general election debate in history. The Biden campaign released this video.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Donald Trump lost two debates to me in 2020. And since then he hasn't shown up for a debate. Now he's acting like he wants to debate me again. Well, make my day, pal. I'll even do it twice. So, let's pick the dates, Donald. I hear you're free on Wednesdays.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, this has been playing out in real time since we've been on the air. And just a short time ago, Donald Trump responded. He posted on social media, quote, "I am ready and willing to debate" who he calls "crooked Joe at the two proposed times in June and September. I would strongly recommend more than in two debates and, for excitement purposes, a very large venue, although Biden is supposedly afraid of large crowds, that's only because he doesn't get them."

With us now, CNN political commentator Karen Finney, and former deputy communications director for the Trump campaign, Bryan Lanza.

A lot going on this morning.

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.

BERMAN: Karen, can you explain to me why you think this is happening now. [09:20:04]

FINNEY: Yes, in fact, I'm just hearing from the Biden-Harris campaign. A couple things. Number one, in the press, the Commission on Presidential Debates has had a challenge actually enforcing their own rules. And so - and given that Donald Trump has a shaky history when it comes to debate, he's going to show up, he's not going to show up. We ended up with two last time.

The Biden campaign, I think, decided, OK, let's put our cards on the table. You say you'll debate anywhere, anytime, anyhow. Let's do it. And let's do two. And let's have those debates before people start voting in - with early votes so that people can see these two men, have this conversation about, you know, I think what we'll see is revenge and retribution. And then we'll see, you know, President Biden talking about the future. So, I think they're saying - they're calling Trump's bluff, basically.

BERMAN: You know, Bryan, it is interesting, for all the strange words - not strange, caustic words we're getting on both sides, from President Biden and then Donald Trump here, actually is a grain of agreement here, which is both campaigns saying they want to debate early, as soon as next month, and both campaigns saying they want to do it outside of the confines of the presidential debate commission, basically throwing that out and starting something new. Am I being naive here or is there actual agreement?

BRYAN LANZA, FORMER DEPUTY COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, TRUMP CAMPAIGN: Well, first of all, thank you for having me.

You know, listen, there's huge agreement that you have. I mean, first of all, I'd say that this is a huge win for President Trump in his campaign, drawing out Joe Biden early. Remember early on Joe Biden even questioned whether he was going to do any debate. Now Joe Biden's saying I'll debate in June. So, that's a huge win sort of strategically for the campaign, showing that, you know, the - that Trump is leading the conversation and Joe Biden is following.

The second thing, two debates, you know, without an audience? You know, it's - it's - it's bad for Biden. It sort of demonstrates weakness and it shows people - it shows the voters he doesn't want to be in front of them and be held accountable for his inflation economy. I mean, let's be honest, these debates are going to be primarily about inflation because that's what the people - the American people are looking at and saying, you know, four years with Trump, four years with Biden, the economic numbers are pretty clear that - that if you want prosperity, you have to vote for President Trump in 2024.

BERMAN: Now, it's interesting. Again, I get that both of you support the candidates you support, and so there - there are partisan arguments to be made on both sides. But still, what I'm hearing through a non-partisan lens is, we could get debates in a few weeks. I mean we could get debates in a few weeks. And I'm still trying to digest, Karen, the impact that that will have on the election.

FINNEY: Yes, it's huge. And, look, I think - and to answer your other question, yes, there is some agreement. I think there are concerns about the way that the commission on presidential debates, sort of the spectacle that those events have become, although I think pretty much anything with Donald Trump is going to end up being a spectacle, but we'll put that aside. And just the idea of having - I get - and the proposal that the campaign put forward is the two men, in a studio, with a moderator, answering the tough questions. And I think if that actually can happen -

LANZA: (INAUDIBLE).

FINNEY: And if Donald Trump can actually answer those questions, then we will have an opportunity to really see where these two men stand, what their visions for the future of the country are, and I think that's a good thing for the American people, especially given that early vote, as we know, is such an important part now of how we vote in America.

BERMAN: As far as I know, neither of you are doing the negotiations from the campaign on how this debate will actually take place.

FINNEY: No.

BERMAN: I will issue an invitation right now, we are willing to do it right here on CNN NEWS CENTRAL, have a morning debate, get it out of the way, three hours in the morning, we'll host it here.

LANZA: Let's do it.

BERMAN: Bryan, one notable thing from President Biden's challenge is he wanted to be just the two of them. President Trump, former President Trump, didn't address that in his response, but what about Robert Kennedy? What if at some point between now and Election Day he's at 15 percent, which would be a pretty high number for a third party candidate. Do you think he deserves to be on the stage too, Bryan?

LANZA: Oh, absolutely. I mean, listen, this is not an accident that Joe Biden wanted to exclude fellow Democrat, you know, RFK from - from the - from the debate. I mean it's - it's pretty clear that they're - they're fearful of him. You know, it's pretty clear that they tried doing anything they can to get him off the ballot. It's almost as though the Biden campaign is scared of democracy taking its course with respect to RFK being on the ballot.

So, I'm not surprised. You know, RFK sort of provides a safety valve for - a safety valve for Democrats who are just tired of Joe Biden's empty promises. And I think that's what it is. He's having trouble reconstructing his coalition and he doesn't want to show the general population that there's an alternative to his failed coalition.

BERMAN: I will say that many of the recent polls show Robert Kennedy drawing more from Donald Trump. And Donald Trump has actually gone pretty hard against Robert Kennedy recently.

FINNEY: Yes. BERMAN: Bryan Lanza, Karen Finney, I really do appreciate you both being with us and I hope people actually, you know, cut through some of the discussion here to realize there is agreement that people want debates soon.

FINNEY: Yes.

[09:25:00]

BERMAN: I guess this could happen. That would be stunning. Thank you both.

Sara.

LANZA: And the - and the commission is bad. Get rid of the commission.

FINNEY: Thanks, John.

BERMAN: All right.

Sara.

SIDNER: The last word.

FINNEY: I think - again, just debate. Let's get a debate.

BERMAN: Everyone agrees.

SIDNER: This -

BERMAN: Everyone agrees. And -

SIDNER: This is how the debate's going to go, John.

BERMAN: And I'm going back to Sara.

FINNEY: Hey.

SIDNER: The debate is going to be like this. Back and forth. Back and forth. All right, thank you so much, John.

Fierce fighting in Ukraine as Russia has made significant gains in the north. Thousands there forced to evacuate. We are live in Kharkiv, which is facing this big battle there.

We'll be back.

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