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Soon: Cohen Retakes Stand For Critical Moment In Cross- Examination; Sen. Bob Menendez Bribery Trial Set To Resume At 9AM ET; Biden, Trump Agree To First Presidential Debate On CNN, June 27. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired May 16, 2024 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: A highly critical morning in Donald Trump's criminal trial about to get underway. Very soon, Michael Cohen will retake the stand for round two of cross-examination. For the first time, the defense expected to hammer away at Cohen's credibility and challenge -- this is the new part -- what they say were lies in testimony directly implicating Donald Trump.

Remember, this is all about Trump's alleged falsification of business records to hide a hush money payment and hide it from the voting public.

With me now is CNN's legal analyst and criminal defense attorney, Joey Jackson. Also, CNN political commentator and former Trump White House communications director, Alyssa Farah Griffin. Thank you both for being here this morning.

Joey, the defense spent a lot of its time on Tuesday trying to ruin Cohen's credibility, talking about past lies throughout his life even. What do they have to do today to try and get the jury to have some reasonable doubt about these very charges?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yeah. You know, Sara -- so they'll continue to pound away, OK? So this is going to be about the narrative of the defense, which is about him hating Donald Trump. Him wanting to see him in that prison uniform, right, and the jail bars. He wore that shirt in his TikTok, et cetera.

And so, it'll be about the issue of revenge. You want to get revenge against the former president. Isn't that right? You have personal animus against him. Isn't that fair to say? This is about payback and retribution, OK? And so, I think they'll go into that.

The other issue will, of course, be the issue of prior inconsistent statements. What is that? It means you said one thing yesterday and you're saying another thing now. And so I think they'll hone in on that.

You saw a little bit of it as it related to Mueller --

SIDNER: Right. JACKSON: -- and relating to you said you go to Prague? You didn't go to Prague. You went, you didn't go? What is it? "ACCESS HOLLYWOOD" -- you told Trump about it. You didn't tell him about it.

So what they'll do is they'll point out instances in which he has said one thing -- that is, Mr. Cohen -- and instances in which it doesn't match what he's saying now. And so, if you can do that, they're going to raise the specter of doubt. Can't believe anything he says.

Final thing -- he goes -- that is, Cohen -- to the critical issue of this White House Oval Office meeting --

SIDNER: Right.

JACKSON: -- that pens him in. Who pens who in? Trump, on the reimbursement. On the purpose of the deal, the structure of the deal, the nature of the deal. That's the critical inquiry because at the end of the day, call it about a porn star, call it about hush money -- it's about the falsification of business records. You've got to hone in on that, what Trump knew, and when he knew it.

SIDNER: And that is the sort of criminal part of this whole thing --

JACKSON: Yes.

SIDNER: -- that the prosecutor is trying to prove.

Alyssa, I'm curious what you thought of Michael Cohen over his day of cross-examination. He is -- he can be a very volatile person. He often responds with some bombastic language.

What did you think of how he did on the stand?

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR , FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE DIRECTOR OF STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS: I think that Michael Cohen was well-prepped. He's also a seasoned attorney himself.

To know Michael Cohen is to know that he's somebody who may fly off the handle. As Donald Trump's fixer, he was someone who would call people and shout at them whether it was a producer, whether it was somebody who was going to run a story on him. That is so in his nature.

And I think the defense was trying to get him to go there. They wanted to see him snap and he managed not to.

So today is going to be -- I think it's the most important day, today, of the trial. I think they're going to try to get him to show that side of himself -- the reactive side. His job is to not -- it's to stick to the facts. It's to remain calm, cool, and collected, but also just chipping away at the credibility.

This is a person who is a known liar. This is somebody who has perjured himself before. And the more times they can repeat that, the more it can just give that bit of reasonable doubt to just one juror. So we'll see how he does today. I honestly don't know. Having dealt

with him a little bit, he's somebody who -- can he get through this? Yes. Can he also -- can it go very south for him? That's also an option.

SIDNER: And everybody will be in court waiting to see sort of how that plays out.

I want to ask you about what we heard from defense attorneys. They want to discuss with the judge today what would be admissible from their expert witness. So does this tell you that the defense plans to put on a case here?

JACKSON: So it tells you, Sara, that there's a contemplation of them putting on a case, right, because you want clearance as to whether it would be worthwhile. If we're calling an expert as it relates to potentially, records of anything else, and information, what can they say? What can they not say? What can they do? What can they not do?

So the extent to which you learn, right, what the judge will admit or the judge will deny, you can have a sense of whether you should even go forward or not.

Remember, the defense having no burden.

SIDNER: Right.

JACKSON: They may, in fact, say hey, look, we believe we've raised a speck of reasonable doubt. We're going to let it go. Or they can choose, if they want to, to put on a case. It'll be up to them.

SIDNER: Alyssa, I have to ask you this question because of the timing of all of this.

GRIFFIN: Um-hum.

SIDNER: We could be witness to something that is unbelievable, unprecedented -- which is a word we use too much but this truly is that. A scenario in which Donald Trump is either convicted or acquitted of criminal charges right before there is the first presidential debate.

What do you make of this? How do you think Trump might use this to his advantage?

[07:35:00]

GRIFFIN: Well, the timing is remarkable. I think that actually, the ball is really in Joe Biden's court heading into the debate. If he's convicted, he should be starting as many lines as he can with "My opponent, a convicted felon" and just reminding the voters of the stark contrast there.

But Donald Trump is an expert at playing victim -- of saying the system has been weaponized against him. And he will spend that several week period ahead of the June 27 debate trying to convince the public, if he's convicted, this decision was wrong. It wouldn't have happened if his name was not Donald Trump and if he wasn't the Republican nominee for the president.

So it comes down to which side can message it better. And Joe Biden's kind of started to lean into this. You know, he had this line about --

SIDNER: Right.

GRIFFIN: you're busy on Wednesdays.

SIDNER: Wednesdays.

GRIFFIN: I think he's got to get tougher. If he's a convicted felon, he should remind people no fewer than 10 times in that debate.

SIDNER: Lastly, to you, Joey Jackson. I've got to ask. We talked about this before. Michael Cohen appears to be the last witness that is going to be called by the prosecution. Good idea --

JACKSON: So --

SIDNER: -- or not?

JACKSON: -- listen, again, everyone does things differently. I think the prosecution felt that he can be strong. That he can hold up to and withstand what's happening, right? To Alyssa's point, if he unravels, that could be a very big deal.

But again, I think they'll redirect him, remember, because after cross, the prosecution has an opportunity to bring it back home to hey, you might have done this. You may have podcasts. You may hate him. But you made a decision with your family to stop lying for him. Is that right? And is that what you did today -- spoke to the jury? Is that what you did the other day -- spoke with the jury about truth?

And if they believe that -- the jurors -- then guess what? There's trouble for Mr. Trump.

SIDNER: Trump. And, of course, you have all the other people who testified and all the other documents and they're going to have to --

JACKSON: Corroborate.

SIDNER: -- put that all together --

JACKSON: Exactly.

SIDNER: -- to see what happens.

Alyssa Farah Griffin, thank you so much.

GRIFFIN: Thank you.

SIDNER: Joey Jackson, always a pleasure to have you on.

JACKSON: Thank you, Sara. SIDNER: All right -- Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: So in less than two hours, court will resume in the bribery trial of Democratic Sen. Bob Menendez. And today marks day two of opening statements in this. Yesterday, attorneys for Sen. Menendez told the jury there was no bribery scheme and also said it was his wife who owned the gold bars.

CNN's Jason Carroll is live outside the courthouse for us this morning. Jason, where do things stand and what is going to happen today?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, we now have a very clear idea of where the prosecution is going here. They really laid out their case to jurors saying that what happened here is that Sen. Menendez was a man who put greed first. A man who "put power up for sale," saying that this wasn't politics as usual -- that this was politics for profit and that he used his wife, Nadine Menendez, as a go-between to accept bribes.

Prosecutor Lara Pomerantz summarizing it this way to jurors, saying the following. "He was powerful. He was also corrupt. For years, Robert Menendez betrayed the people he was supposed to serve by taking bribes. And what was his price? Gold bars, cash for his wife, and a job for his wife."

Of course, talking about the gold bars and the hundreds of thousands of dollars of cash that was confiscated at their home in New Jersey.

The defense, for its part, really had to get right to it with jurors, describing what he called and addressing the green and gold elephant in the room. Saying that he knows it looks fishy. This is defense attorney Avi Weitzman saying that he knows it looks fishy.

He put up a screen showing a locked closet, saying it belonged to Nadine and saying that Robert Menendez didn't even have access to the closet. And that's the closet where the gold bars were found. He also said that those gold bars belonged to Nadine Menendez's family.

He also went on to say this. Listen to this, Kate. He said, "She wasn't going to let Bob know she had financial problems so she tried to get cash and assets any way she could. But she kept Bob sidelined. Nadine made sure Bob was kept out of the conversations involving money. In this case, we need to -- we need to figure out: Where's Bob?"

Of course, making a reference to "Where's Waldo," which made the court -- some in the court laugh at that moment. That was the only moment of levity, if you will, during that proceeding during openings.

He went on to tell jurors that there are no emails, no phone calls, no text messages directly linking him between these two co-defendants and any bribes.

So it's very clear at this point they're going to be laying part of the blame -- the defense is going to be laying part of the blame on Nadine Menendez who, as you know, is being tried separately. Her trial starts in July -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: Wow. We'll see what happens today.

Good to see you, Jason. Thanks for laying it out for us -- John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. This morning, scientists are exploring additional possible health benefits of drugs like Ozempic. It's already known for helping with weight loss and diabetes, but they are studying the possible impact on liver disease.

CNN medical correspondent Meg Tirrell is with us now. Meg, what's going on here?

MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, there's been a lot of focus on all of these potential benefits of Ozempic and similar medicines. We have heard thousands of reports of folks who report not just eating less while on these medications, which would be an expected result, but also having less interest in things like drinking or even cigarette smoking, so much so that scientists have studied this.

[07:40:03]

One study looked at social media reports about taking one of these medications in a class known as GLP-1s and drinking alcohol. They found more than 1,500 social media posts about this topic. Seventy-one percent of those posts talked about reducing cravings for drinking alcohol.

And so there's been a major call for these companies making these medicines to potentially study these things. So far, they haven't.

But now, Novo Nordisk, the maker of Ozempic, has announced a new clinical trial that, as you said, is actually focused on alcohol- related liver disease. That is the main goal of the trial to see if semaglutide and other medicines -- semaglutide being the drug name for Ozempic and Wegovy -- can reduce damage to the liver. But as part of that trial, they are also going to measure whether these medicines lead folks to drink less, and that is something that researchers in the space of addition science have really been wanting to see.

Will we actually see this in the realm of a controlled clinical trial that these drugs do have this effect, guys?

BERMAN: Is there any science yet on the idea of why these drugs may want you to drink less -- make you want to drink less?

TIRRELL: Yes. So the studies, so far, are in animals. But what they have found is that these medicines work not just in the digestive system but also in the brain. And so, there is a thought that they reduce the sort of rewarding effects of drinking alcohol, and that is why people have less of a desire to drink while they're on these medicines.

We're going to have to actually see that in people. There are, so far, only academic studies going on. So it's exciting to see a big drugmaker studying this even if this isn't their primary goal with the study.

BERMAN: Yeah. I mean, not that they need a bigger market for these drugs, but drinking -- is that expected to be a market -- a bigger market for them?

TIRRELL: Well, unfortunately, these companies have not embraced addiction as a real big market for them. Novo Nordisk's CEO told me last year don't expect us to study this in a major way. He said it's difficult to study. And traditionally, drugs for addiction -- for alcohol and other things -- really haven't been bit markets for drugmakers.

Eli Lilly, the maker of Tirzepatide, Mounjaro, and similar medicines, also doesn't have any current studies.

So it's not expected to be a big area. As you said, they already have so many patients trying to get these medicines.

BERMAN: All right, Meg Tirrell. Thank you so much for that report this morning -- Sara.

SIDNER: All right.

A huge week for the WNBA as their two newest stars make a splash. Former LSU star forward Angel Reese made her debut with the Chicago Sky last night. She netted 12 points and reeled in eight rebounds. A nice showing even if the Sky ultimately lost to the Dallas Wings 87- 79.

And the numbers are in. the Suns home opener on May 14, by the way, sold out for the first time since 2003.

And Caitlin Clark's debut with the Indiana Fever on Tuesday drew in the largest WNBA audience in two decades -- about 2.1 million viewers -- beating the NHL Playoffs head-to-head -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, wild new video showing the moments a semi truck careens basically off a bridge. How the driver reacted to this terrifying situation and the moment that they were saved.

And a major flood -- there are major flood worries yet again in the South today. A rare highest risk of excessive rainfall issued for parts of Texas and Louisiana.

(COMMERCIAL)

[07:47:40]

BOLDUAN: The chancellor of the University of California Irvine says he is brokenhearted after police were called in to help and eventually detain at least a dozen pro-Palestinian protesters on campus. Hundreds of protesters surrounded one of the school's lecture halls and a small group barricaded themselves inside on Wednesday. The chancellor basically saying that changed everything.

Here's the quote. "After weeks when the encampers assured our community that they were committed to maintaining a peaceful and nondisruptive encampment, it was terrible to see that they would dramatically alter the situation in a way that was a direct assault on the rights of other students and the university mission."

Classes will be held remotely today.

New dashcam footage shows the wild and terrifying moment a semi truck nearly drives off a bridge in Kentucky, leaving the driver dangling over the Ohio River. Here is what they say happened. A pickup truck swerves into oncoming traffic and hits the semi, sending it careening off and nearly into the river below.

And here is the moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

Semi truck dangling off bridge over Ohio River.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: I honestly cannot imagine. The driver was eventually rescued by firefighters and sustain minor injuries, thankfully. The driver of the pickup was in court Wednesday on charges related to that crash.

Chinese President Xi Jinping is rolling out the red carpet for Russian President Vladimir Putin at the start of a two-day state visit. Literally, himself -- he's rolling it out himself. The trip is meant to strengthen ties between the two countries. And it comes, of course, as Russia continues its push into northeastern Ukraine and both leaders face increasing pressure, understandably so, from the West.

During one meeting, Xi Jinping said China is willing to always be Russia's "good neighbor, friend, and partner of mutual trust." Sara.

SIDNER: All right. This morning, forecasters warning of a nightmare scenario. Another round of fierce storms across the Gulf Coast today could raise the risk of flooding to its highest levels. This -- parts of Texas and Louisiana have already been saturated over the past month and today's storms are expected to bring an extra -- listen to this -- three inches of rain per hour.

Meteorologist Elisa Raffa is tracking the latest forecast for us. When are you expecting these storms to hit? And three inches per hour could be dire for a lot of these places.

[07:50:00]

ELISA RAFFA, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Yes, especially since they have gotten so much rain over the last couple of weeks. The soils cannot take anymore rain. We're really expecting this to ramp up through the day and into the overnight.

Here's that new high risk that was just issued this morning for parts of eastern Texas and western Louisiana. This high risk is exceptionally rare. It's only issued four percent of the time, but it's responsible for 80 percent of our flood damages nationwide and more than a third of our flood fatalities. So this -- again, we need to take this very seriously.

Even that moderate risk goes up to Dallas as we go through the day today.

This is the flood watch, and we put the river levels on here to show you that the situation is already really aggravated. We already have rivers that are at that flood stage because of all the rain that we've gotten in the last couple of weeks.

I mean, look at this. We're looking at upwards of 20 inches of rain that has fallen in the last 30 days there just north of Houston. And that is about 600 percent of their normal. Six times the normal amount of rain that they would get.

So again, the soils cannot take any more rain at all and that will cause the flooding to happen even more quickly.

And we do know that our rain is getting heavier. As our atmosphere is warmer, it holds more moisture. In Texas, they're looking at that rain being 21 percent heavier since the 1950s. Across much of the Southeast, it's almost 40 percent heavier.

Here is a look at how this is setting up. We've got the showers and storms from Oklahoma City stretching into Texas. As we go through the day today you can see them really blow up. Look at all the reds and the oranges -- all that heavy rain.

And look at the timeframe. As the sun is setting is when we could really see some of this heaviest rain. Flooding at night incredibly dangerous because it is hard to see when those floodwaters rise so rapidly.

We also will have that threat for additional strong storms with damaging winds and tornadoes, too. So a very active day ahead -- Sara.

SIDNER: Yeah, we're seeing all this before the big summer storms that we're used to as well.

Elisa Raffa, thank you so much for your reporting -- John.

BERMAN: All right. So I show you the number 42, many of you think Jackie Robinson, maybe Mo Vaughn. But political nerds now know that 42 is 42 days until the first presidential debate. That is early -- way, way early for a general election debate. Earlier than ever.

So, CNN senior data reporter Harry Enten is here with us. When I say wicked early, Harry --

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: You mean wicked, wicked early. My goodness gracious. This is the earliest presidential debates between major party candidates. June 27 -- 27 -- look at that -- 2024.

The earliest previous debate was back in 1976, which happened on September 23 between the major party candidates. So this is nearly -- what is that? That's one month, that's two months, that's three months nearly before. And then, the second most earliest debate was September 25 back in 1988 between Bush and Dukakis.

So this, my friend, isn't just a record, it's a landslide of a record.

BERMAN: Yeah. Look, I like, Harry, that you are literally running the numbers there, counting from one to three to show us how many months earlier it is than every before.

ENTEN: Simple and complex numbers.

BERMAN: But look, there's some logic behind this given how people vote now.

ENTEN: Yeah. So, you know, one of the things that Joe Biden was saying, we have early voting now. People are casting ballots before a lot of these debates are taking place. A lot of them take place in October.

So take a look here. This is Americans voting before Election Day. Back in 1984, it was just five percent. You jump forward to 2004. There was some real movement towards early voting after the 2000 election. It jumped to 21 percent. This year, 57 percent of Americans say they plan to vote early either by mail or in person before Election Day.

So the fact is, yes, it does make some sense to have these debates early when folks are actually making up their mind and haven't already cast a ballot.

BERMAN: Now, President Biden is the incumbent and there are some people looking at this and saying well, President Biden is asking to debate now because he needs it -- at least, according to the polls.

ENTEN: Yeah, absolutely. And I think he wants to sort of upset the apple cart here because incumbents trailing going into the first debate -- look at this. Jerry Ford in 1976, Jimmy Carter in '80, George H.W. Bush in 1992, and Donald Trump, of course, in 2020. What do all four of these have in common besides being good-looking men? They all lost reelection.

So, Joe Biden is trying to say wait a minute, I look at this history. I don't like this history. I want to change it up a little bit. Maybe if I can get the debates going earlier and maybe if I have a good debate, all of a sudden, I can change the polling. Because at this point, Joe Biden needs something to change because if it doesn't, he's going to end up like these four men on the screen.

BERMAN: Yeah. He doesn't want to be like these guys, so he wants to try something different. A debate three months earlier than the general election than ever before.

ENTEN: I am so happy about this.

BERMAN: It's historic.

ENTEN: Yeah.

BERMAN: And I don't think we fully have digested the impact of what it will be.

ENTEN: No.

BERMAN: All right -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: I also don't think I fully digested the fact that Harry does not have polling on what people think of the looks of those presidents. I'm just saying.

[07:55:00]

ENTEN: I can poll my mom and she is a very good gauge of good-looking men because she tells me I'm good-looking every single time I talk to her.

BOLDUAN: I'm moving on.

ENTEN: Bye, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Thank you much.

Joining us right now, Democratic strategist Simon Rosenberg, and former director of strategic communications for the Trump 2020 campaign, Marc Lotter. No, I'm not going to ask you the same question, guys. Have no fear.

Simon, let's start with this, though, about the debate.

SIMON ROSENBERG, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST AND CONSULTANT (via Webex by Cisco): Yeah.

BOLDUAN: Early debate --

ROSENBERG: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: -- smart, dumb, necessary, not, more impactful, less impactful? Which is it for Joe Biden?

ROSENBERG: Yeah. Lots of questions there, Kate.

But I think that this is good for the American people. I mean, we have this unusual election this time where we essentially have two incumbents. We haven't had the normal primary debates and engagement of the American people in the primary process.

And I think we have this very extended period. I mean, imagine if we waited until the end of September or early October to have this first debate. It's a long way away.

And I think it's good for the American people to be engaging in this important decision they have to make earlier. And so, I think this -- I applaud President Biden for doing this. I think it's a good thing for our democracy and a good thing for our -- for the American people.

BOLDUAN: And, Marc, you remind a very important aspect to all of this, which is we don't have Election Day anymore. It's election season, as you've put it.

ROSENBERG: Right.

BOLDUAN: So that means what for Donald Trump going into this?

MARC LOTTER, FORMER DIRECTOR OF STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS FOR TRUMP 2020 CAMPAIGN, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT TRUMP AND PRESS SECRETARY TO VICE PRESIDENT PENCE: Well, I think for him, he's trying to seal the deal before people start voting.

You know, when it looked -- when it comes down to the issues, the American people don't like what we currently have. They remember they were better off under Donald Trump. The border was more secure under Donald Trump.

So he wants to go and show that head-to-head comparison between the two policies -- the two results. And so in his view, this seals the deal.

I think this is a Hail Mary for Joe Biden. He knows he's losing. These polls have never historically over-favored Donald Trump; they always underestimate his support. So he needs to change the narrative and the debate is basically his Hail Mary shot at doing it.

BOLDUAN: And talk to me about your -- the view on polling. Simon, I know you have a view on this as well. I mean, because Biden talked about --

ROSENBERG: Yeah.

BOLDUAN: -- with Erin Burnett in their interview about how he thinks -- I think he was talking about the economy. How he thinks the polling has been wrong all along on the economy. And even if you disagree with polling about -- as it relates to Biden on issues and -- on issues and in battleground states --

ROSENBERG: Yeah.

BOLDUAN: -- do you think that should be impacting the decision to debate?

ROSENBERG: I think that what's probably more impactful -- because I think -- I don't believe that Joe Biden is behind in the polling, and I know that I'm a minority view of this. But a majority of the polls taken in May have Biden actually ahead in the national popular vote.

And so, I think the election has moved two to three points in our direction in recent weeks and I think some -- at some point, the media is going to catch up with that. I don't believe that Joe Biden is actually behind at this point.

But I think it's more -- I think there's something more less political in what's happening here, which is let's have a debate. Let's engage the American people in a discussion about their future. I think Joe Biden did the right thing here rather than waiting until the fall. And I think both candidates will get to make their peace. I mean, get to make their case.

And I think Joe Biden is anxious. I think this shows a degree of confidence and not desperate -- desperation in the way it's being cast. I think people thought he wasn't going to debate. He is. And the truth is Joe Biden's anxious to debate.

The guy who has not been showing up for debates is Donald Trump. He didn't show up for a single Republican debate this year. He didn't show up for the third debate in 2020. Let's see if he shows up in June.

BOLDUAN: The thing is that even not showing up, Marc -- as you well know -- it worked -- it's worked out very well for Donald Trump to this point -- not showing up for debates.

Marc, let me turn to this. In a new interview, Mitt Romney -- not a fan of Donald Trump -- one of few Republican senators who voted to impeach Donald Trump over January 6 -- Romney is now suggesting that Joe Biden should pardon Donald Trump.

Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): Had I been President Biden when the Justice Department brought in indictments, I would have immediately pardoned him. I'd have pardoned President Trump. Why? Because it would make me -- President Biden -- the big guy and the person I pardoned, the little guy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Marc, would you ever think you'd hear that from Mitt Romney?

LOTTER: No, and I see the political calculus there that Mitt Romney's doing. That would probably win Joe Biden support from the middle, but it would cost him his base. His base so hates Donald Trump. They wake up every day hating Donald Trump. And right now, Joe Biden is trying to placate his base. The middle is his next concern.

So while that might -- that move would help him probably in the middle, I think it would cost him his radical base. And so, it's just not something he could do.

BOLDUAN: I mean, we're, of course, dealing in hypotheticals because it's not going to happen as far as we can tell in our crystal ball in the very near future. So it is -- it is that.

It's great to see you, guys. Simon, thank you. Marc, thank you very much.

[08:00:00]