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Both Sides Rest, Trump Doesn't Testify; Secretary Antony Blinken Grilled On Capitol Hill; Blinken: Israel Must Decide If It Wants Normalization With Saudis; Giuliani, 10 Others Plead Not Guilty In AZ Fake Electors Scheme; Giuliani Ordered To Post $10,000 Bond After Not Guilty Plea In AZ. Aired 1:30-2p ET
Aired May 21, 2024 - 13:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Any minute, former President Donald Trump is arriving back at court for a meeting on jury instructions. Earlier today, his legal team rested after calling just two witnesses. Neither of them, the former president.
Instead, we saw a familiar scene play out outside the courthouse where Trump allies have gathered daily to make claims seems that Trump cannot, due to a gag order.
Listen to this.
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DONALD TRUMP JR, SON OF DONALD TRUMP: The star witness in this case is a what? Nine times convicted liar. And now, now an admitted thief. That is who they're hanging the entire case on. The other one happens to be a porn star. Not exactly, not exactly the ultimate form of jurisprudence here.
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SANCHEZ: I want to bring in a former Trump attorney, Tim Parlatore.
Tim, thank you so much for being with us.
First, to that comment from the son of former President Donald Trump. Does this case, in your mind, totally rest on Michael Cohen's testimony?
TIM PARLATORE, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: It does. I mean, what we have here is we've got a lot of business records. We've got a lot of corroboration. But what we have corroboration on are things that are not the crime.
Yes. I believe that the prosecution has proved beyond a reasonable doubt that there was catch-and-kill, that there was hush money payments made, that Michael Cohen was paid back. All of that is undisputed. But that's not what he's charged with. He's charged with these false
business record entries. And in order to tie him personally to the knowledge of how those checks were put the books, you need Michael Cohen's testimony -- or Allen Weisselberg's testimony, who neither side called.
So without Weisselberg, you only have Michael Cohen.
SANCHEZ: The defense did call Bob Costello, somebody who was described as a friend moments ago when we were in the commercial break. Folks that we've talked to have been split about his testimony, whether it did more to distract the jury from Cohen's, at times, difficult testimony or whether it actually helped the defense make their argument.
What did you think of his contentious moments with Judge Juan Merchan?
PARLATORE: It's very difficult to tell from outside the courtroom. Because we're looking at a flat transcript and so much of it is going to be the non-verbal things that the jury witnesses.
You know, you hear what Judge Merchan says, you know, about, you know, are you staring me down?
SANCHEZ: Yes.
PARLATORE: Now is that because Bob Costello, this old man is threatening him or is he just turning around to look at him, and it -- was Judge Merchan a little bit hair trigger. I don't know. It's difficult to tell when you're not in the room.
[13:35:06]
The thing that I find interesting about Bob Costello is that there were so many objections from the prosecution, which can go both ways. On one hand, that can limit what the jury hears from him.
But on the other hand, it can backfire and have the jury sit there and say, OK, clearly, this guy has a lot more information. Why won't they let us hear it?
SANCHEZ: You think it benefits the defense to see him sort of square off with the judge? I mean, it seems like you'd think the judge may have been sensitive. Do you think the jury would feel that way?
PARLATORE: It's not helpful to be squaring off with the judge, generally, in front of the jury. But I think that what the jury saw -- because remember, they were out of the room when a lot of that happened.
What the jury saw was questions and then answers that he was not allowed to finish the answers on. And then, him getting frustrated that every time he is trying to answer, the prosecutions objecting and it's sustained. And he gets frustrated with it.
Yes, one important thing here is they had the - the hearing right before his testimony on what he could and could not testify to, as opposed to a week before. So when Bob Costello walks in the room, the judge has said he's allowed to talk about this, he's not allowed to talk about this.
The lawyers know it. Bob Costello doesn't. And so when the lawyer has to ask them open-ended questions, tell us what was said in the meeting, Bob doesn't know which parts he's allowed to say and which parts he's not allowed to say.
And so he's naturally going to say things that the prosecution is going to interrupt him on. He doesn't know what the script is because he -- he doesn't know the pretrial ruling.
SANCHEZ: Some of his emails that came to light during testimony revealed this frustration with Michael Cohen, that Michael Cohen, according to his emails, wasn't taking his advice.
PARLATORE: Yes.
SANCHEZ: He denied that he offered Michael Cohen this back-channel to Donald Trump. How do you think the jury sees those emails in light of his testimony denying some of that behavior?
PARLATORE: I mean, I think that emails, obviously, speak for themselves, but they do need context.
And so if you can explain a lot of the other things around that of, is the back-channel because Costello and Julian (ph) are trying to keep him on the straight narrow or is it because Michael Cohen is the one sitting there begging for a pardon.
You know, one of the major problems here that I saw come out through these emails is, if the media is reporting that Michael Cohen is cooperating.
And if they're reporting that Trump and Julian (ph) are speaking bad about him, that type of thing, whether it's from the media or whether it's from prosecutors, false information being put out can have a tendency to cause somebody to want to cooperate.
And so I've seen this before where prosecutors will paint somebody as if they were a cooperator when they're not just --
SANCHEZ: To force them into that position.
PARLATORE: Correct. Correct. It's something that they did a lot in organized crime cases.
And so I think that those emails can also be put in the context of, hey, Michael, let's make sure that you understand the full context before you make a decision.
And don't forget, the first thing Bob was trying to do with Michael Cohen was to get him to cooperate against Donald Trump.
SANCHEZ: Is that right? PARLATORE: Yes. It was. The very first thing. Because he -- Bob sat
with him and said, look, clearly, you're not the target here. We know who the target is.
I can make all your -- because Cohen's sitting there saying, I swear to god, Bob, I'll do whatever I have to do, I won't spend a day in jail. He says, I can make your legal problems go away tomorrow.
SANCHEZ: Is it also possible that that was an avenue to see what he had on Donald Trump?
PARLATORE: No. Because that would be completely unethical.
You know, Bob Costello had no relationship with Donald Trump at the time. The only person who had a relationship with was the man sitting in front of him, Michael Cohen.
And so, at that time, his sole legal and ethical responsibility was to the man sitting in front of him. And Michael Cohen's best route out of it at that time was to cooperate against Donald Trump. And that's what he explored.
SANCHEZ: We'll see how the jury feels about it.
And quickly, before we go, was it a good idea to have Donald Trump avoid the witness stand?
PARLATORE: Absolutely. No question.
SANCHEZ: Tim Parlatore, we've got to leave the conversation there. Very much appreciate your time. Thanks for being with us.
PARLATORE: Thank you.
[13:39:07]
SANCHEZ: Still to come, Americas top diplomat is testifying on Capitol Hill right now. The ultimatum that Secretary of State Antony Blinken just says that Israel is now facing. Stay with it us.
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JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: Secretary of State Antony Blinken is testifying on Capitol Hill today, facing criticism from both sides of the aisle. He is there to discuss the State Department's budget, but the Israel-Hamas war quickly became front and center.
And during his opening statement, Blinken was interrupted by a demonstrator.
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SANCHEZ: Let's bring in CNN's Alex Marquardt.
Alex, Blinken faced some forceful questions about the prospect of Israel normalizing relations with Saudi Arabia, about the situation in Gaza, an array of different issues.
And specifically, he was asked about the ICC warrants that were issued not only for Israeli leadership, but also for the leadership of Hamas as well.
ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Just yesterday. And we've heard this full-throated rejection of the ICC seeking these warrants for Hamas and Israeli leadership from both President Biden and Secretary Blinken.
Blinken yesterday saying that they fundamentally reject this equivalence between Hamas and Israel.
So Blinken was asked today about potential legislation for punishing the ICC for what many, especially Republican, see as overreach. What's interesting is that the Trump administration had put sanctions and visa restrictions on members of the ICC that were then lift when Biden came into office.
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So this is what Secretary Blinken had to say when the ranking member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Senator Risch, asked him about the ICC sticking its nose in the business of
countries like Israel.
Take a listen.
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ANTONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: We want to work with you on a bipartisan basis to find an inappropriate response. I'm committed to doing that. As you say, the devils in the details. So let's see what you got. And we can take from there.
But given the events of yesterday, I think we have to look at the appropriate steps to take to deal with, again, what is a profoundly wrongheaded decision.
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MARQUARDT: So, profoundly wrongheaded decision. He talked about the appropriate steps and said he is willing to look at what Congress sends the administration. So not ruling it out.
I just want to note that in the case of Russia's war in Ukraine, the U.S. has been supportive of helping the ICC uncover Russian war crimes and said that the warrants by the ICC against Vladimir Putin was justified. DEAN: Now, Blinken was also asked about this prospect of normalizing relations with Saudi Arabia, which kind of looms over the deal, the hostage deal, all of it, right, and any ceasefire.
What did he say about that? Because Jake Sullivan was overseas this weekend.
MARQUARDT: He was. And what we understand is that the U.S. and Saudi Arabia are all but done with agreeing to the terms of between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia.
But that's just one part of it. The other part, of course, is what would go on between Saudi Arabia and Israel.
And Saudi Arabia is requiring peace to return to Gaza and a credible pathway to a Palestinian state. And that is something that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and other Israeli leaders have so far rejected.
What the U.S. has been saying is that without that part, without that pathway to the statehood for Palestine, there will be no normalization and there will be no defense pact between Saudi Arabia and the United States.
So Blinken, not terribly optimistic today, saying that, in this moment, Israel may not be able or willing to proceed down that pathway. And that Israel now has to decide.
DEAN: All right, more to come on that.
Alex Marquardt, always good to see you. Thanks so much.
Just into CNN, Rudy Giuliani and several other Trump allies arraigned in Arizona for their alleged roles in the fake electors scheme. Details and the pleas they entered, when we come back.
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SANCHEZ: We have breaking news for you now out of Arizona. Rudy Giuliani and 10 other Trump allies pleading not guilty to charges of conspiring to overturn the state's 2020 election results.
DEAN: The former New York mayor was ordered to post $10,000 in bond after evading efforts to serve him with a summons.
Let's bring in CNN's Kyung Lah who has been following this.
Kyung, what are you learning this afternoon?
KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Well, it was quite -- quite the arraignment. I haven't actually been inside a felony criminal court like that for an arraignment ever before and heard quite a lot from one of the defendants. But basically, what we began with, when it became down for Rudy Giuliani's turn, he was the 11th out of 11 who were scheduled to appear either virtually or in person. He dialed in over the telephone.
And the assistant attorney general clearly was fed up, saying that it was three weeks of back-and-forth where Giuliani was talking about this on his podcast, appearing on TV shows, even sending out a taunting tweet.
So that the attorney general's agents followed him from New York and then they finally served him notice of this arrangement that was scheduled for today to where he would finally serve notice.
But it happened at his 80th birthday party after he had finished singing "New York, New York" on his front lawn. When Giuliani was leaving that party, that's when you serve notice. So it was three weeks of this sort of a chase.
And so what the attorney general roles office has requested is that he appear in person within the next 30 days and that he has to pay a secured bond of $10,000.
The lawyer for the prosecution did explain exactly what their philosophy was behind this request.
Take a listen.
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NICHOLAS KLINGERMAN, ARIZONA ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Rudy Giuliani has made numerous statements over the past-- past month discussing the indictment, his co-defendants and, quite frankly, mocking the justice system in Arizona.
Given his latest Twitter posts and then his lie about communicating with our office, we decided it would be appropriate to ask for some kind of release conditions to ensure his appearance in Arizona.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAH: So in court, Giuliani denied that he was ducking the authorities. He said to the judge that, "Look, this is a completely political case. Let's see what we can do to destroy Donald Trump," is how he characterized the charges against him.
Then he went on and on for so long, even talking about their Iranian government at one point, that the judge said, I don't want to mute you, but we have to move on.
He did plead not guilty -- Boris, Jessica?
DEAN: Kyung Lah, with the latest out of Phoenix. Quite a story there.
All right. Thanks so much.
[13:54:52] SANCHEZ: So very soon, attorneys, Donald Trump and Judge Juan Merchan will be back in that New York courtroom hammering out what jury instructions will be for his hush money case. Why that is so important as we head into this next phase of the trial.
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Stay with CNN.
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