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Jury Deliberations in Trump Criminal Hush Money Trial; Supreme Court Sides with NRA, Allowing First Amendment Suit; Secrets and Spies: A Nuclear Game Airs Sunday at 10p ET/PT; Third Person in U.S. Tests Positive for Bird Flu. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired May 30, 2024 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Just of people who say that they are already going to vote for Donald Trump, if he is convicted, how does that change their vote? 7 percent says that they are less likely to vote for Donald Trump, 24 percent say they are more likely to vote for Trump, and 68 percent say it would not make a difference.

Now, you look at that 7 percent and you think to yourself, that's not a huge number. But we're talking about, first of all, Donald Trump's base, people who are already in favor of voting for him. And that is a huge number, because one of the things that Donald Trump's campaign is relying on is the fact that his base always turns out to vote for him. The other reason why that number could be concerning for members of his team is because both Biden and Trump believe that this election is going to be decided by such a narrow margin of voters that 7 percent of his base could be a huge problem for them.

But they say they have seen time and time again that his legal peril does not cause problems for him, either with fundraising or in the polls. Obviously, right now, we are in uncharted territory. We just aren't sure what could happen.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Kristen Holmes, live from outside the courthouse in New York. Thank you so much.

Let's get some perspective now from Mike Dubke. He served as communications director in the Trump White House. He's also a founding partner of the Black Rock Group. Mike, thanks so much for being with us.

MIKE DUBKE, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Absolutely.

SANCHEZ: As we await a verdict, how would you assess the messaging coming out of the Trump camp?

DUBKE: I think the Trump camp has to keep messaging the way that they have been doing, so that they can cover their bases one way or the other. As the reporting has been coming in, I mean, this is almost like the overtime in a sporting event. We have no idea how it's going to turn out. But they have to prepare for the next stage of this, which is the political campaign, the presidential campaign, and how they message out of this one way or the other. I'm sure they've had those conversations. I'm sure they're ready to execute on those conversations. But everyone's sitting on pins and needles right now, waiting for the final verdict to come out.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: In our latest polling, 24 percent of Trump supporters say they would reconsider their support for him if he's convicted in any case. No doubt the Trump group, the Trump team, is looking at that. What do they do with that?

DUBKE: Well, I think they take that under consideration. But this is going to be an incredibly close election. It was in 2020. Frankly, it was in 2016. And so they've got to -- here's the bottom line. Time is on Trump's side.

This verdict will come down in May, if it's this week, June, if it's next week. And they are going to have plenty of time to message through, whether it's a hung jury, a conviction, or an acquittal. And they can use that.

And I believe that number right now, but I'm not sure that I think that number is going to stay static through November 5th.

SANCHEZ: There was some fascinating new reporting in The New York Times from Maggie Haberman talking about how the former president is, quote, leaning into an outlaw image. You're laughing.

DUBKE: I am, because America loves a bad boy, right?

SANCHEZ: Well, to a degree. I wonder whether you think this might help Trump with some folks.

DUBKE: I think that there is a -- obviously, he thinks that it does. He's used the mugshot to raise money. He's associated himself with some individuals that are either convicted or are under investigation at the moment.

He, even at the Bronx rally, where he had -- I don't know what the size of that audience was there, but he had some individuals on the stage that, in a normal political year, you probably wouldn't see associated with a presidential candidate. So obviously, I think from his perspective and the campaign's perspective, they think that this might be a way of them connecting, and that if you believe this is political persecution, not prosecution, but persecution, there's a reason why you have these individuals on stage with you.

KEILAR: Yes, I mean, because Donald Trump's camp will say that this is representative, the fact that he has so many cases he's facing, this is a justice system that's being weaponized against him.

DUBKE: Absolutely.

KEILAR: And that will really concern a lot of his supporters. We're also reporting that once the jury comes to a verdict, it's really possible that President Biden is going to be addressing this. And I wonder, you know, what you're expecting, what you think that will mean.

DUBKE: I don't know that I'm expecting anything great to come out of the Biden campaign, specifically because I watched what they did with Robert De Niro the other day. It's a little too little, a little too late by trying to play the game in front of the courthouse. I thought they fumbled that. I kind of suspect they may fumble whatever President Biden says.

If I was in their camp, I'd probably think about it and wait until the debate at the end of June to bring any of this up. If the Trump campaign is going to say that this is political, why would the Biden campaign make it so?

KEILAR: Reinforce that perception.

[15:35:00]

Mike, great to have you. Mike Dubke, thanks so much.

SANCHEZ: Appreciate it.

DUBKE: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Coming up, a third person in the United States is tested positive for bird flu. We're going to tell you everything we know about this new case.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: A legal win for the NRA today in a highly charged free speech case.

SANCHEZ: The Supreme Court unanimously said it will allow the gun lobby to proceed with a lawsuit alleging a First Amendment violation.

[15:40:00]

Joan Biskupic, a CNN Senior Supreme Court Analyst. Joan, a New York official tried to pressure banks and insurance companies to cut ties with the NRA. Do you think this is going to make it harder for state regulators to punish advocacy groups?

JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SENIOR SUPREME COURT ANALYST: It could. First of all, this still has to go to trial or some other hearing. The court's action today did not say the claims were true. It just said that if they were true, it would be a First Amendment violation.

This dates in part to 2018 and the terrible shooting in Parkland, Florida, where 17 children and staff members were killed. And after that, you know, there was a backlash against the NRA. And New York state officials thought, you know, let's use some of our power to leverage insurance companies that underwrite NRA claims.

And at the time, there was some investigation going on in New York having to do with insurance policies. But this action that the NRA has brought to the Supreme Court was separate.

And essentially, it said that the superintendent of New York's Department of Financial Services really tried to muscle the insurance companies and make a deal with them that said would say, you know, as you said, Boris, cut your ties. Don't do any more business with the NRA. In return, we will be more lenient on your companies.

Today in the courtroom, Justice Sotomayor said if those allegations are true, it can go forward. Here's kind of the key part that she said from the bench.

At the heart of the First Amendment's free speech clause is the recognition that viewpoint discrimination is uniquely harmful to a free and democratic society.

She went on to say that this Maria Vullo, who was, you know, head of this department, quote: Threatened to wield her power against those refusing to aid her campaign to punish the NRA's gun promotion advocacy. If true, that would violate the First Amendment.

Now, she said nothing in the -- Justice Sotomayor said nothing in the ruling would stop government for going, investigating gun groups or advocacy groups for true violations of the law, or even stop government officials for trying -- from trying to kind of pressure or use their own soapboxes to try to, you know, get their messages out there.

But in this kind of case, if the allegations are true, it goes too far. And this is what Justice Sotomayor, writing for the unanimous court, said in the end.

Ultimately, the critical takeaway is that the First Amendment prohibits government officials from wielding their power selectively to punish or suppress speech directly or as alleged here, through private intermediaries.

So, you know, it will, it will definitely this decision will offer a guide to government officials who would like to encourage a certain kind of behavior, but not to have them go too far.

KEILAR: What's the NRA saying?

BISKUPIC: OK, the NRA had a statement from the group.

It said: This is a landmark victory for the NRA and all who care about our First Amendment freedom. The opinion confirms what the NRA has known all along. New York government officials abuse the power of their office to silence a political enemy.

That's that sentiment of feeling like it's a landmark for them is good. But it's not quite yet. What it is, is it's on the law. The justices were basing this in their own First Amendment precedent going back six decades. But they also said, we're not deciding whether the facts here are true or false. We're just saying if they are true, there would be a violation.

Now it goes to lower back to lower court for a hearing.

SANCHEZ: Joan Biskupic, thank you so much for the update.

BISKUPIC: Sure. Thank you.

KEILAR: And still ahead, secrets and spies. We're going to talk with a former KGB officer about the intricacies of espionage and how covert agents shape the world.

[15:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Secret agents played a major role behind the scenes during the Cold War.

SANCHEZ: And the new CNN original series, "SECRETS AND SPIES, A NUCLEAR GAME," shines a light on two of the most notorious double agents. Here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yuri Andropov is the head of the Soviet intelligence service, the KGB.

NINA KHRUSHCHEVA, PROFESSOR OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS, NEW SCHOOL, NYC: The KGB have been running the Russian life for years. Andropov was getting more and more convinced of the menacing West. He was a full- blown KGB person who thought that it's either us or them, and basically it better be them.

TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Yuri Andropov concludes that the superpowers are on the verge of a nuclear war. And so he begins a process of collecting information that would be indicators of the approach of nuclear war.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This running tally of signs is called Operation Rion.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Joining us now is a former officer in the KGB turned journalist. It's Alexander Vassiliev. I'm doing my best to get the name right, Alex.

Thank you so much for being with us.

ALEXANDER VASSILIEV, FORMER KGB INTELLIGENCE OFFICER: Thank you for having me.

SANCHEZ: Of course. What was it like working in the KGB in the late 1980s?

VASSILIEV: I worked in the KGB intelligence service, and it was the most boring job I have ever had in my life. Because, you know, the real espionage starts when an operative is working with a source, with an agent who has access to top-secret information.

[15:50:00]

But 90 percent of operatives in any intelligence service are not having it. So they're not so lucky.

Actually, if they work under the cover of a diplomat, they work as diplomats. If they work under the cover of a journalist, they work as journalists. And I spent two years training. That was actually exciting. But then I spent two and a half years working in the center in Moscow, in Yasenevo, and that was extremely boring. And in February 1990, I resigned for political and moral reasons and became a civilian journalist again.

KEILAR: Talk a little bit more about that, that you resigned for moral reasons, deciding to leave what was sometimes, a few sometimes, maybe a fun job, but kind of boring, as you said. Why move to journalism?

VASSILIEV: Well, I worked as a journalist since I was 16, and I studied journalism at Moscow State University. I worked then in the national, biggest national newspaper in the Soviet Union. So I came back to that newspaper, and my life very soon became really exciting.

I went to South Yemen, I went to Saudi Arabia in August 1990, and then I went to Israel, Pakistan, Afghanistan. I would never go there being a KGB operative, because it was too complicated. They would, you know, they would analyze pros and cons, and in the end, I wouldn't go anywhere. So it was really, it was the best decision I made in my life.

SANCHEZ: Sure. How do you think the Cold War changed the way that espionage works and the way that agents are used today?

VASSILIEV: I don't think it changed very much. Basically, the good old espionage is still the same, and it's an integral part of international life, like diplomacy or the military. So there are spies, they do their job.

You know, it depends, the effectiveness of espionage depends on the situation in the country we're talking about. For instance, the situation in America. I wrote two books, also two books about the KGB operations in the United States in the 1930s, 1940s.

That was the golden age of Soviet espionage in the United States. Why? Because the situation was favorable. And one of the results of it was that just a bunch, a few operatives stole the secret of the atomic bomb. They really shaped the world. By the way, one of them was my instructor in the KGB spy school.

You would never guess that he did something like that. But he was a very ordinary-looking man, Anatoli Yatskov. So, you know, it doesn't depend on the number of operatives working in some country. It depends on the political situation in that country. And right now, the situation in America, for instance, is not really favorable for Russia, so I can't see any big danger there.

SANCHEZ: Alexander Vassiliev, fascinating perspective. Thank you so much for sharing part of your afternoon with us.

VASSILIEV: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: You should tune in to this new CNN original series, "SECRETS AND SPIES, A NUCLEAR GAME." It premieres Sunday at 10 p.m. Eastern and Pacific.

So a third case of bird flu in humans has been reported in the United States. This person has new symptoms that had not been seen so far. What it could mean in just moments.

[15:55:00]

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SANCHEZ: Developing now, a third person is tested positive for bird flu in the United States.

KEILAR: CNN health reporter Jacqueline Howard is joining us more on this. Jacqueline, what more do we know about this case?

JACQUELINE HOWARD, CNN HEALTH REPORTER: Well, the good news is we know that this case has shown mild symptoms. But the symptoms are different than what we've seen before. In the previous two cases, those people had more eye-related symptoms. They had conjunctivitis. That's pink eye.

But this new case that was just recently reported out of Michigan, this person had more respiratory symptoms, cough, congestion, sore throat, watery eyes.

Now, this difference in symptoms doesn't mean the virus is becoming more dangerous or more contagious. It just shows that infections can present differently. If you became infected because you were working with an infected cow and then rubbed your eyes, maybe you'll have more eye-related symptoms versus breathing in viral particles, maybe you'll have more respiratory symptoms.

But what we do know about these three cases, they were from close contact with infected cows. We know the most recent case out of Michigan was with a farm worker. And health officials in Michigan do say we have not seen signs of sustained human-to-human transmission, and the current health risk to the general public remains low.

And in the current situation right now, nine states have reported outbreaks among cattle, but, again, only three human cases. Health officials, Boris and Brianna, are watching this situation very closely.

[16:00:00]

KEILAR: And so they're watching it closely. Are they concerned that this could balloon or anything like that?

HOWARD: Well, they say, again, the risk is low, but they do recommend farm workers to wear PPE, protective eye gear, masks, because of the risk of this outbreak spreading among infected dairy cattle.

KEILAR: All right, good to know. Jacqueline Howard, thank you so much for the very latest on that. We appreciate it.

SANCHEZ: And thank you so much for joining us this afternoon. A lot to monitor with the Trump hush money case in the jury's hands as we speak. Make it a decision any moment.

"THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right now.