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President Biden Responds to Trump's Conviction; Trump's Reaction to the Verdict; Republican Support for Trump; Fundraising Surge for Trump; Potential Appeal and Sentencing; Impact on the 2024 Election. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired May 31, 2024 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

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BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Just a few minutes ago, President Biden weighed in on his 2024 rival, Donald Trump, being found guilty of 34 felonies in his hush money trial. This was the first time that President Biden did so publicly. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: The American principle that no one is above the law was reaffirmed. And it's reckless. It's dangerous. It's irresponsible for anyone to say this was rigged just because they don't like the verdict. Our justice system has endured for nearly 250 years. And it literally is the cornerstone of America. Our justice system. The justice system should be respected. And we should never allow anyone to tear it down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: President Biden obviously appearing there to be responding to remarks that former President Trump made earlier today at Trump Tower, where he defiantly blasted the trial, saying that it was rigged, where he launched into a series of attacks on the judge and key witness Michael Cohen, as well as the Biden administration. CNN's Kristen Holmes is back with us now. I wonder if you're hearing anything. Anything from Trump's camp about what Biden said there, Kristen?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Not yet. We haven't gotten a response. And I will let you know, we just saw his motorcade around Trump Tower. He's expected any moment to leave Trump Tower and go to Bedminster. That's where he's going to spend the weekend before going back to Palm Beach. There's still no reaction to exactly what Biden said. But Donald Trump himself, as you noted, getting out there and talking about the case today and then at times rambling airing of grievances. He also claimed at one point that he had wanted to testify, but it was encouraged not to. Take a listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, (R) FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT, 2024 REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE: Now, I would have testified. I wanted to testify. The theory is you never testify because as soon as you test for anybody, if it were George Washington, don't testify because he'll get you on something that you said slightly wrong. And then they sue you for perjury. But I didn't care about that. I wanted to. But the judge allowed them to go into everything that I was ever involved in, not this case, everything that I was ever involved in, which is a first. In other words, you could go into every single thing that I ever did. Was he a bad boy here? Was he a bad boy there? And my lawyer said, what do you need to go through? And all you wanted to do is testify simply on this case because I would have loved to have testified to this day. I would have liked to have testified.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: You can tell there that he was not on teleprompter. His aides had actually set up a teleprompter set up and then removed it moments before he got there, which might be why he went into a whole, was he a bad boy there, bad boy there situation while talking. This is not the only moment that he seemed to go off script. He was talking at one point about Allen Weisselberg being in jail, talking about different cars and how why do you have to claim them on your tax reports? There was a lot of in and out in this speech. But one thing is clear. Donald Trump is going to capitalize off of this verdict as much as he possibly can. Will it help him in the end politically? That is something that only voters will be able to decide. But right now, his team believes. That he should continue to message this. They should continue to fundraise off of this and that that could help them get some Republican voters who feel like they were sitting on the fence before to support Donald Trump. I will note that Donald Trump's team says that they raised $34.8 million in small dollar donations since that verdict came out. Of course, guys, we cannot verify that number until we see the FEC reports.

KEILAR: All right. Kristen Holmes live outside of Trump Tower. Thank you so much for that. Leading Republicans are rallying around the former president on the Senate side. Minority leader Mitch McConnell said the charges never should have been brought in the first place. That's something that we're hearing from a lot of Republicans.

SANCHEZ: Yeah. House Speaker Mike Johnson, meanwhile, called yesterday shameful and said the trial was a political exercise, not a legal one. Notably, we just heard from former Vice President Mike Pence as well.

[14:05:09]

He just put out a statement saying the Trump conviction is an outrage that it undermines the American justice system. He called the charges politically motivated. Notably, those two, similar to Mitch McConnell, perhaps to a more dramatic degree, had a break after January 6th, 2021. But Pence here coming out in defense of the former president. Let's get some perspective now with former republican Arkansas governor Asa Hutchinson and David Schoen, who was an attorney for Trump during his second impeachment trial. Governor, I'd like to start with you. You're a former prosecutor. What's your reaction to hearing fellow Republicans call this a sham trial, saying that jurors got this wrong?

ASA HUTCHINSON, (R) FORMER 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, you could see it coming from the showcase of other candidates, other rivals, members of Congress outside the courtroom, undermining it even during the course of the trial. This is a serious moment for America. And I'm one of those in the camp that I didn't think the charges should have been brought to begin with. I've made that statement. But when the prosecution put forth their case and you saw the seriousness of the jurors, you couldn't see it. But you could see how they were following it, the reports of those in the courtroom. And it has to give you some respect, both for the prosecution and for the jurors that took this case so seriously.

And throughout this trial, you didn't have one juror saying Donald Trump is innocent. And so as an officer of the court, as a lawyer, we ought to respect the findings of a jury. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be an appeal. And I know that there will be. And it could be reversed on appeal. But let's don't undermine the seriousness of what has happened and the serious work that a jury did. The only one Trump's attacking is the judge right now. Thank goodness they don't know who the jurors are. I think they did a good job as they went through this difficult case.

KEILAR: Governor, just real quickly, why shouldn't this case have been brought in your opinion?

HUTCHINSON: Well, I question the legal theory. It seemed very novel that they were tying the business records falsification to a federal election violation, and that seemed to be a stretch. Now, obviously, when it went to the jury, it was not limited to federal election violations. It was also a possibility of the felony being a state violation, tax violations. And so it took a shift as this case went to trial. And they did a good job meeting the technical legal requirements of the offense presented to the jury in a way, obviously, that they could understand. But at the beginning, as a prosecutor, this appeared to me as a campaign finance violation. It seemed to be a stretch. So I wasn't in favor of bringing it, but they made their case.

David, I want to play some sound from Trump defense attorney Todd Blanch, who was on CNN last night. He was asked why the defense didn't call more witnesses. Here was his response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: One thing he brought up were the witnesses who were not called. And he was saying that there could have been witnesses that would have helped make the case. We never saw Keith Schiller, Allen Weisselberg, some key figures here who got brought up a lot. Why didn't the defense call any of these witnesses?

TODD BLANCHE, ATTORNEY FOR FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, because we happen to live in America and we don't have the burden of proof. You as a defense attorney, you don't go into a case saying I'm going to fill the holes of the prosecution, right? And Keith Schiller and some of the other witnesses that were not ultimately called, in our view, should have been called, should have been called by the prosecution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: David, was that ultimately a mistake?

DAVID SCHOEN, TRUMP ATTORNEY DURING SECOND IMPEACHMENT TRIAL: I don't know if it was a mistake or not, but he really didn't answer the question. He's right that they don't have a burden to it. The question was, would they have been helpful to win the case if they felt they should have been called? Look, I discount, to be perfectly honest, I discount, these are not really experienced criminal defense lawyers, to be perfectly candid about it, former prosecutors, but out of their league, in my view, in this case. I'd like to just comment on a question you asked the governor. Why shouldn't these charges have been brought? I mean, one answer to that would be because the feds passed on it and the Federal Election Commission passed on it. And I think that's a fair statement to make. And I don't like the specter of a district attorney running on a campaign of getting some particular citizen, like Donald Trump. But my overall comment on the case, I think, first of all, the governor's right. I don't think you fault the jurors in this case. The jurors followed the instructions they got. I think the instructions were very problematic. I'm not sure that these defense lawyers objected when they should have to the instructions. But I think the fundamental problem with this case is I believe it's a fatally defective indictment.

[14:10:09]

You cannot put a person to trial without charging what the target crime was. And in this case, we saw when the judge denied the motion to dismiss, he said, well, the state's put forward four possibilities. You can't have four possibilities and know whether to defend against a tax target crime or a campaign finance target crime and so on. And they certainly should have had a special verdict if that were the case to find out what the jurors thought the target crime was. It also raises a double jeopardy problem. I'm sorry to talk for too long.

KEILAR: No, that's OK. I'm going to ask you to talk for a little longer, David. What do you think then, considering that you've identified a lot of what you think are weak spots, what is the strongest argument for appeal as you see it?

SCHOEN: I think that's the strongest argument. I think there's a due process violation, double jeopardy violation. Other fifth and sixth amendment violations from this indictment. The defendant is entitled to have the grand jury decide what what crime he's charged with. Remember, as the governor explained, you have to prove the misdemeanor, the false business records with the intent to defraud and with the intent to conceal or commit some other crime. You can't just have it loosey goosey out there. Every crime has elements. Every crime has a mens rea, a state of mind. And the government, the state has the obligation of proving that. But more importantly, to identify it first. Not can you find some crime?

SANCHEZ: Governor, I'm curious about what you think the sentence would look like here. HUTCHINSON: Well, I mean, first of all, this is going to be a substantive issue on appeal. And I agree that, you know, it it could be reversed. We don't know. But and I don't think you should presume that. But in terms of the sentencing, I really feel strongly that the former President Trump should not go to jail. You know, it's going to be problematic, whatever happens in the judge's mind. But I hope that he shows restraint. I hope that he is, you know, looks at the entire country and what's best. I do believe this should be decided at the election polls in November. But I hope that he gives him probation. What's interesting is he gives him probation based upon good behavior. That's going to be challenging for Donald Trump in and of itself.

KEILAR: That is a very good point. Governor David, thank you so much to both of you. We appreciate your time.

SCHOEN: Thank you.

HUTCHINSON: Thank You

KEILAR: And ahead this hour on CNN News Central, some brand new polling that is giving us some insight into whether these convictions and Trump's felon status will affect his support in the upcoming election. Plus, they just delivered one of the most consequential verdicts in American history. How are the jurors possibly feeling today?

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[14:15:09]

SANCHEZ: Donald Trump wasted no time using his status as a convicted felon and a self-proclaimed political prisoner to raise money for his campaign.

KEILAR: Yeah, big money, because he raked in nearly $35 million within hours of his guilty verdict. The Biden campaign, though, is also capitalizing off of Trump's conviction, urging supporters to donate.

SANCHEZ: CNN senior data reporter Harry Enten is here to break down the numbers. Harry, those are some big numbers.

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: I wish I had $35 million. I wouldn't be here right now. No, no, I'd still hang out. Anyway.

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KEILAR: I'd be here.

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SANCHEZ: You would be here.

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KEILAR: I'd be here Harry.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: You'd be hanging out with us, Harry.

I would, but I would share the wealth. I would share the wealth. I want you to know we can split it three ways, all right? Look, it's not much of a surprise that a lot of money was raised because the fact is interest in Donald Trump, once the verdict came down, has been through the roof. So these are Google searches for Donald Trump. Look at this. At the time of conviction, up 3,233% versus the hour before the conviction took place yesterday. You do not need to be a mathematical wizard to know that this number is extremely high. And, you know, throughout this trial, we really have not seen the interest from the American public in this trial. It's been sort of low on the list of most important issues. But when the conviction actually came down yesterday, the interest went through the roof. And I think that's part of the reason why, of course, you saw that megamoney. I mean, I think that's part of the reason why we're seeing so much money being drawn in by the former president.

KEILAR: All right. So how does it impact the race?

ENTEN: OK, so money is one thing. Google interest is another. But then there's a third element, which is do people in the middle actually care about this? So I'm going to present two separate sides to this. All right. So let's take a look here. These are Trump supporters who said they'd be less likely to vote for him if he was convicted. We got a timeline going on here. Right. And what you basically see is these percentages are quite low. In May of 2024, seven percent. April of 2024, five percent, march of 2024, it was 10 percent, the highest figure on there. And that's not particularly high. And I should also note, of course, throughout all of these indictments and this particular trial, we really haven't seen much poll movement at all. So I think the question is, why would we see poll movement now? All right. So this is the good case for Trump. Let's take a look, though, at the bad case for Trump and the good case for Biden. All right. So this is the Biden versus Trump margin pre-conviction. We haven't gotten a poll out yet. At least not a reliable poll since the conviction took place. So this is the Biden versus Trump margin pre- conviction. In early May, Donald Trump led by three percentage points. But then Marquette University Law School asked a hypothetical.

[14:20:09]

But then Marquette University Law School asked a hypothetical. They said, OK, what happens if Trump were convicted? Well, in that particular case, look at what happens to this margin. Joe Biden now leads by five percentage points. Now, I should note, of course, this is just a hypothetical. We'll have to wait and see what happens. But at this particular point, I wouldn't be surprised if there was movement in the polls. But then again, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't any movement either. We're just going to have to wait and see.

SANCHEZ: We will see how it plays out. Harry, do you promise that you would split that money with us? ENTEN: Absolutely. (CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: Awesome.

ENTEN: Absolutely. Though I should note that the chances of us winning is roughly between, I think, one and two hundred ninety two million. And one in three hundred and three million.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: Let's ignore those numbers.

KEILAR: Is it like 11.6 million each?

SANCHEZ: It was like 11.6 million each.

KEILAR: But you take home like half of that after taxes and local taxes.

SANCHEZ: Nevertheless, that's not bad. I would feel bad about bailing on lunch. With Harry, like I did a few weeks ago. Harry, I'm sorry. I just didn't want tofu, man. My bad.

ENTEN: Yeah, yeah--

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SANCHEZ: Next time

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ENTEN: Honestly--

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SANCHEZ: It was raining.

KEILAR: And he's still sharing with you.

SANCHEZ: He's a good man.

ENTEN: I am.

SANCHEZ: Harry thanks so much.

ENTEN: Be well.

SANCHEZ: Let's discuss about how both candidates are now moving forward with David Axelrod. He's a CNN senior political commentator and former senior adviser to President Obama. David, thanks so much for being with us. So this--

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DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Let me just say before you proceed, if I had $35 million, I'd buy Harry's enthusiasm. I know. I don't know where you pick that up, but that's what I would spend my money on. Anyway, what do you want to talk about here?

SANCHEZ: He does have a lot of enthusiasm. I'm wondering whether you feel enthusiastic about Joe Biden's chances, given the outpouring of support that we've seen for Donald Trump. It doesn't seem like this conviction has hurt him. He raised nearly $35 million in the hours following the verdict. How do you see it, David?

AXELROD: Look, first of all, I think the most dangerous time to assess the impact of anything like this. Is in the hours after it's going to take a while for us to assess what impact it will have on the race. It does have an impact on fundraising, and that will be helpful to Trump who struggled with that earlier in the race. So I'm sure those dollars will be welcome. But those dollars are coming from people who obviously were Trump voters to begin with. I think Harry was right to be cautious about making any predictions about how this would go. I think it's very hard in advance to weigh what a verdict like this will actually do in in in the real world when it has happened. But there is one thing that I think is true. And we saw it play out this morning. I did a podcast earlier in this week, my Hacks on Tap podcast. And Chris Christie was on the podcast who knows Trump very well. And Christie said, we're focusing too much on how the verdict will be received by voters. And we should focus more on how the verdict will be received by Trump.

Because he is likely to become a lot angrier, a lot more paranoid, a lot more apocalyptic as because the two things that he fears the most in life are bankruptcy and prison. And I think you saw an unhinged Donald Trump this morning who made the, you know, his remarks, he would have little interventions where he talked about the country, but mostly he talked about himself. This is an opportunity for Joe Biden. Trump becomes more and more consumed with his own grievances and his own situation. Biden has an opportunity to go out there and talk about the problems and concerns of people, what he's doing, what Trump would do, what the future would look like. And I think one thing that we are not factoring into this is what does Trump's personal performance and how it's changed by this verdict, what does that do in this election?

SANCHEZ: His demeanor certainly seemed different after the conviction came down and certainly today before his speech. David, going back to what you said about this opportunity for Joe Biden to sort of counter program and make election issues central to the discourse as opposed to the legal issues that Trump is facing. What did you think of what he said earlier and how he made the decision yesterday and the reaction from Trump folks about the American Justice system and how it should be protected moving forward. What did you think?

AXELROD: No, I think that was it was a good, good response from Biden. I think it was measured and it focused on the fundamental issue of our system, which is no one is above the law. And I think that's a point worth making. I just don't think that should be the center piece of his campaign. There are so many other things that actually touch people's lives. I mean, his point should be, well, he's consumed by himself and is fighting for himself. I'm fighting for you.

[14:25:09] And let me tell you how- and let me tell you what your future, what the future will look like with Trump and with me when it comes to the cost of your health care, the cost of your pharmaceuticals, abortion rights. There are really distinct differences between these two guys. Biden needs to prosecute that case politically in order to leverage up in this race. And I think Trump's, you know, sort of unhinged focus on his own situation gives him that opportunity. The contrast would work for Biden. But what he has to not do is do what he's done too much of, I think, which is to look for credit for the things he's done. This is not an electorate that is in a in a credit giving mood. The country's in a sour mood and history will give Joe Biden credit for a lot of the things that he's done, he needs to set this into a comparative frame. You know, he's fought to make health care more accessible through the Affordable Care Act.

Trump would destroy the Affordable Care Act. He's fought to bring down the cost of pharmaceuticals. Trump did nothing about that and would bow to the pharmaceutical company. You know, I think there are a series of contracts that go to the lives that people are leading and their own problems that in which Biden can engage. And of course, his superpower is his empathy. He needs to. Show that and throw this whole race into a contest between someone who has empathy and advocacy for people and someone who's consumed by himself.

SANCHEZ: David Axelrod, appreciate the insight. Thanks for being with us.

AXELROD: Great to see you guys.

SANCHEZ: Of course. Much more of our coverage of the felony conviction of Donald Trump is still ahead. Also next, a political and economic problem for President Biden today. A new report on inflation. Some stubborn numbers. When we come back.

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