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Trump Airs Grievances After Being Convicted On 34 Felony Counts; Trump Says He'll Appeal His Conviction On 34 Felony Counts. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired May 31, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:00:24]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: A historic conviction and two very different messages today. President Biden is speaking out for the first time after Trump was found guilty of all 34 charges in his hush money trial. Biden making it clear that the jury's decision reaffirmed the American principle that no one is above the law.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They found Donald Trump guilty on all 34 felony counts. Now he'll be given the opportunity, as he should, to appeal that decision just like everyone else has that opportunity.

That's how the American system of justice works.

And it's reckless, it's dangerous and it's irresponsible for anyone to say this was rigged just because they don't like the verdict.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Now that statement coming just hours after former President Trump lashed out after his criminal conviction, he railed against the verdict against Judge Juan Merchan, against the District Attorney Alvin Bragg and one of the prosecution's key witnesses, Michael Cohen. At one point, Trump called the U.S. a fascist state.

CNN's Kara Scannell is joining us now from New York.

Kara, tell us what else Trump had to say.

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Trump had a lot of comments about Judge Juan Merchan, who presided over this seven week trial, saying that he - criticizing some of the judge's ruling, saying that that's why he didn't testify in his own defense, because the judge would have allowed the prosecution to dig into some of his past. He also is saying that the judge just led an unfair trial, saying that he looks like an angel, but he is the devil.

And he also made some statements against the prosecution's key witness, Michael Cohen. Although Trump is under this gag order where he is not supposed to make - he's prohibited from making any comments about any of the witnesses. So in Trump's statements today, he did not identify Cohen by name. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: By the way, this was a highly qualified lawyer. Now I'm not allowed to use his name because of the gag order. But, you know, he's a sleazebag. Everybody knows that. Took me a while to find out, but he was effective. He did work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCANNELL: Now, there's no indication as of now whether the prosecution is going to try to raise this as a potential violation of the gag order. We haven't heard anything on that today. Of course, the judge already found that Trump has violated this gag order 10 times and warns him that in the future, if he does it again, he could be forced to put him in jail, but no movement on that today.

Of course, though, the next movement in this case will be Donald Trump's sentencing, and that comes between the first debate between Trump and Biden that CNN will air and then the Republican Convention when Trump is expected to get the nomination. So pretty significant moment for him there on July 11th when he will find out his fate from Judge Juan Merchan, who he has continued to criticize, guys.

SANCHEZ: And Kara, while Trump's legal team is deciding whether to try and push back on his July 11th sentencing date, some members of his team see a positive political advantage keeping the sentencing just days before the convention. What's the reporting there?

SCANNELL: I mean, I think his team would just look at this of whether there is a political strategy here, he raised millions of dollars yesterday after he was convicted of 34 felony counts. That has been a fairly consistent political strategy that Trump has deployed. After his indictment, they raised a lot of money as well.

So he - his legal team or his political advisers seem to think that there is some gain for him politically with all of these legal issues he's had, this case as well as the three other indictments that Trump is facing, in which he has pleaded not guilty to, guys.

KEILAR: All right. Kara Scannell, thank you so much for that report.

And for more on what happens next for the former president, I'm joined now by CNN Legal Analyst and former U. S. attorney, Michael Moore.

Sentencing, Michael, is scheduled for July 11th. Is the former president going to actually be sentenced on that day do you think and will he ever see the inside of a jail cell or does that just seem highly unlikely to you?

MICHAEL MOORE, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I'm glad to be with you. I do think he will probably seek to have the sentencing date moved. I mean, it was set so very close to the convention. It would strike me as odd if his lawyers didn't ask to do that.

And remember, in between now and then there will be motions file. There will be some sentencing memoranda coming both from the state and from the defense in the case. And so there's plenty for the judge to be working on and I think probably the date was just chosen to get something on the books, and it wouldn't seem odd to me to have that moved.

And whether or not he goes to jail, I cannot imagine that he would go to jail. There have been some people who say, well, it's 34-count, surely that means something.

[15:05:00]

You know if you steal one banana from the grocery store, you don't get more time because there were six bananas on the stock. I mean, I just can't imagine a case like this where you have basically sort of this hush money payment, this one transaction, even though there were a number of checks written, but it's really around one specific allegation that you'll see the judge try to tax something on. And it's also not a case that typically would draw a prison sentence.

Trump is a first time offender. He is, you know, in his 70s, there's no reason to think that he would commit other crimes of this nature. There's just nothing there that I think a court would try to hang onto to put him in jail, not to mention the fact that the judge would have to be taken into consideration.

Just the logistical problems, I mean, even as a convicted felon, he's still entitled to Secret Service protection under the Former Presidents Act. And that means that somehow the Secret Service would have to embed themselves into some type of facility if he were sentenced to a state correctional facility. And that just strikes me as something that's probably a bridge too far and hard for me to imagine.

KEILAR: Yes, that would be a certainly novel situation.

MOORE: Right.

KEILAR: As the former president is looking at an appeal here. What do you think is his strongest argument for one?

MOORE: Yes. I mean - and I think everyone ought to remember that he has a right to appeal just as anyone else would. And so I think you will probably see challenges that draw the most attention around the due process claims and those deal specifically with whether or not he was adequately placed on notice of the specific allegations of the specific crimes that he was alleged to have committed in the charging document. And I'm talking specifically about when they bumped this up from a misdemeanor to a felony and they tried to say, well, he did all this with the intention to commit another crime.

Well, whether or not that other crime was fully explained - whether or not that was fully explained to the jury, this whole question of did they have to find something unanimous or they didn't have to be unanimous on which of the other crimes were involved and how that intent would be formed in those other crimes. These are things that I think you will see great interest in, in the Court of Appeals and ultimately could ultimately be of interest in a federal court of whether or not there's been some deprivation of rights and due process rights there.

I don't think you're going to see much in the way of a venue change. That's just - that's kind of just talk right now. We're beyond that. And you may see some good arguments made around whether or not his expert witness was improperly excluded. That may be something that you say. I've heard other folks talk about that and that may catch the attention of some appellate court judges, too.

KEILAR: Yes.

MOORE: This was a novel charge. I mean ...

KEILAR: Yes.

MOORE: ... this is a first-time thing. It's a novel way of charging cases.

KEILAR: ... just to be clear, that expert witness is very much limited in scope in what he would have been able to testify to.

MOORE: And that would be the question, that (INAUDIBLE) ...

KEILAR: Trump - yes, Trump tried to say that his witness wasn't allowed at all. That's not the case. It was really a limited thing.

I do want to ask you just really quickly, Michael. Gag order is still in place, but Trump's attacking Michael Cohen. Do you see anything happening because of that?

MOORE: I can't imagine. I think at this point his First Amendment rights would outweigh the usefulness of - the case is over. There's no question that he would be - there's not a worry that he would be intimidated as a witness. And so it would seem to me to be an excessive exercise on his right to respond or to campaign or otherwise now that Cohen is no longer subject to a subpoena, not going to be in trial, he can't very well claim that - the state couldn't claim that his testimony would somehow be altered in some way because of threats by Trump.

This testimony is in the books. I mean, it is what it is. And so it's hard for me to imagine that anything would come of some of the comments that he made certainly today.

KEILAR: Yes, perhaps that's why he felt some freedom to make them.

MOORE: Right.

KEILAR: Michael Moore, thank you so much.

MOORE: Always good to be with you. Thank you. SANCHEZ: A drumbeat of attacks on Judge Merchan and the Justice Department coming from the former president and his allies has grown steadily louder. Joining us now is John E. Jones III, a former federal judge.

Judge, thanks so much for being with us.

Did Donald Trump receive a fair trial in your eyes?

JOHN E. JONES III, FORMER CHIEF JUDGE, U.S. MIDDLE DISTRICT COURT OF PENNSYLVANIA: I thought he received, Boris, an eminently fair trial. I think that Justice Merchan showed admirable restraint and even handedness throughout the case. You know, it is true that whenever a party loses, they feel disaffected and upset with the presiding judge. That's the nature of the business of judging. But I can't see that that there was anything unfair.

He has appellate grounds, of course, as Michael just said, with respect to some of the charges and he'll exercise those rights. But I didn't see anything that indicated to me that it was anything but eminently fair.

SANCHEZ: How about this claim from some in Trump world that Judge Merchan was conflicted? They're referring to some $35 in donations back in 2020, 15 earmarked for the Biden campaign, $10 to a group called Stop Republicans. The donations were reviewed by a state ethics board, which dismissed the complaint last summer with a caution to Judge Merchan.

[15:10:05]

But do you think he should have recused himself from the case?

JONES: Well, every judge has to make an independent decision as to whether or not they want to recuse, Boris. And I will say that for my part, I would never have made political contributions. It was just something that I wouldn't do. I think it was ill-considered for Judge Merchan to make even the de minimus contributions that he made. But he took the right step in having that tested, you know, ethically. And even though they admonished him, they felt that he was fine to sit.

And I and I think his conduct demonstrated that he didn't have a bias and didn't have a lean. Again, you know, Trump world will say that he did because they lost. But, you know, I think that's, you know, so much noise at this point.

SANCHEZ: You mentioned grounds for an appeal, something that we've heard from the Trump team is that they believe he could not get a fair trial in Manhattan. Last week, an appeals court denied Trump's motion to move the venue. I'm wondering if you think that might be successful.

JONES: I think it's ironic that, you know, an individual who kind of proudly proclaims his residence in New York and that he is the quintessential New Yorker, then turns around and says that his peers in New York can't give him a fair trial. I don't think there was any basis for a change of venue. Typically, a change of venue, Boris, is when there's pretrial publicity, you know, that so affects the jury pool that you can't find a fair jury.

Look, everybody in the country knew something about this case. So that wasn't going to be the basis for any change in venue. He just wanted to get it out into, you know, presumptively favorable territory. He's a New Yorker. He submitted to the jurisdiction in New York. He had his businesses here. I don't see anything wrong with that and I don't - that's not central to any appeal, in my view.

SANCHEZ: Judge, how do you imagine the sentencing is going to go down?

JONES: Well, I might respectfully disagree with Michael's statement. I think he's playing with fire, that is the former president. Because, you know, what he's doing is he keeps saying these things that show an absolute lack of contrition. He's calling Merchan the devil. You know, he's at a point now, you know, where he's trying to test the parameters of the gag order.

And by the way, you know, the gag order is still in effect. And it's going to be in effect until Judge Merchan lifts the gag order. So this is a guy who's not like any other defendant, frankly, that I've ever seen. He keeps running his mouth. You know, he keeps threatening people. He's saying things that are really beyond the pale.

This is not the sort of prototypical defendant, you know, who leads up to a sentencing by minding his business and doing the right things. And by the way, you know, as far as his record is concerned, you know, that he's not going to recidivate, which Michael sort of implied. We have to remember that since the factual array that formed the basis of the case in which he was convicted on 34 counts yesterday, he was indicted in two federal jurisdictions and one state jurisdiction, you know, for violating the law.

So, you know, if you evaluate whether or not he's going to reoffend, you know, you have to look at what has happened in the last couple of years, plus the way he conducted himself at the trial with all of the contempt citations. So I just don't know. I wouldn't make book on the fact that he's not going to have a prison sentence.

SANCHEZ: Judge John E. Jones, thanks so much for joining us.

JONES: Thanks, Boris.

SANCHEZ: Of course. Still ahead, the Trump campaign cashing in on his felony conviction, how Republicans inside and outside MAGA world are reacting. We're talking with Trump's 2020 campaign national press secretary when we come back.

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[15:18:26]

SANCHEZ: Among the big political questions following Donald Trump's conviction is who will benefit more. The Trump campaign says it's breaking fundraising records, raising $34.8 million in small donations in just a matter of hours.

KEILAR: As for President Biden, sources close to his campaign say even if the conviction doesn't move the needle in a major way come November, they still see it as a win because an acquittal could have really worked to Trump's advantage.

Joining us now to discuss, we have Trump 2020 campaign national press secretary, Hogan Gidley. He's also a senior advisor for strategic communications for the America First Policy Institute. And we're also joined by CNN Political Commentator, Paul Begala, who served as a counselor to President Bill Clinton.

Hogan, first off, I just - I wonder what you think about Trump's reaction. He billed it as a press conference, it wasn't. He didn't take questions. But at first there was a teleprompter. Then there wasn't a teleprompter. And he came out instead with a note card. What did you think about his speech and whether it accomplished what it should?

HOGAN GIDLEY, TRUMP 2020 CAMPAIGN NATIONAL PRESS SECRETARY: Well, look, I think he's been forced to be silent for a long time with an unconstitutional gag order and he wanted to come out and plead his side of the case and talk about all the conflicts the judge had, all the issues with the Manhattan jury that clearly hated him from day one. You can't get a fair trial in this city by any stretch and leave it to New York Democrats, where it's a city that has never met a felony. It didn't want to make a misdemeanor. And for some reason they want to do the opposite when Donald Trump's involved.

[15:20:00]

So I think it was good for him to come out, get that off his chest. He did talk about some of the issues of the American people really care about moving into this election cycle with a porous southern border, with drugs pouring across and killing our American citizens. He talked about car prices. He talked about other issues, taxes that the American people are struggling with right now because of the Biden administration and their policies.

And so that's what this thing's going to be about at the end of the day. We can have the press conferences we want to have. We can talk about this as being a done deal. Trial's over. Sentencing is soon to happen as well. But the American people care about what's happening to them and who has the prescriptions to fix their problems. That's clearly Donald Trump, every major polling statistic in every data point.

SANCHEZ: Paul, your view of the press conference?

PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, Donald Trump needs to pay himself hush money, because every time he speaks, he's losing. He did better during that trial than I thought he would do because he was gagged and the gag order was perfectly constitutional. It happens in lots of cases.

He hurts himself when he goes on these hysterical rants. Yes, he helps himself with his base, but his base is not the majority of the country. And there will be some MAGA people who feel some pity. Look, I did - in a way I do. I mean, he's a obese, flatulent old man with bad makeup and weird hair who had to sit in a courtroom and listen to a porn star testify about how bad he is in bed. Now, if you can't feel sorry for that guy (INAUDIBLE) want to make my president.

The problem is he is exclusively focused on himself. And this is where I think the Biden campaign needs to take it. He's - Mr. Trump's in it for himself. I'm in it for you, right? Mr. Trump cares desperately about staying out of prison. That's his most important job right now is keep himself out of prison. But he seems to be fixated only on his own grievances, and grudges, and vengeance, and his business deals, and he's complaining about the last election and the last jury trial.

Biden has an opportunity here not to push on the criminality, but to push on what voters care about, right? Put up Mr. Trump on metaphorical trial for wanting to cut Medicare and Social Security so he can cut his own taxes, put him on trial for eliminating Roe versus Wade, put him on trial for things that affect my life and yours, not just his.

KEILAR: Let me ask you about something, because I think there's, you know, he is, yes, the first former president who is now a convicted felon. But this may be the first person convicted as a felon who wins re-election. It is a real possibility. I mean, I just think the people who do not like Donald Trump point to the former. But the reality may very well be the latter. This may not hurt him. This may even help him.

BEGALA: I thought the best statement about this actually came from the Biden campaign when they said there is only one way to keep Donald Trump out of the Oval Office at the ballot box, right? And I think that's great. Let's empower the American people to decide this.

Now, Trump has - he should be worried or his campaign, because in The New York Times-Siena poll, which is a very good poll for Trump, 7 percent of Trump voters said if he's convicted, they'll switch and vote for Biden. That's a 14 point swing in a one point race.

Now, I don't think they'll do it. I think people overstate that when they're polled. Trump also has done remarkably well, much better than he has in the past with younger voters. Same poll. Good poll for Trump. Twenty-one percent of those younger voters said if he's convicted, 21, they'll switch from Trump to Joe.

Now, Biden has an obligation here, though, to build a bridge for them, to give them a permission structure. And it doesn't come by talking about Trump's criminality. It comes by talking about your problems, not Mr. Trump's. And I think that is a key thing for Biden to get to get his campaign focused on.

SANCHEZ: To that point, Hogan, do you have any concern that some of those independent voters who are not eager for baggage, that aren't into some of the more dramatic aspects of a Trump presidency, do you have any concern that this conviction cements their desire for someone else to win? GIDLEY: Not really, because, you know, polls and people who respond to them really only are giving you the response based on the information they have. Sixty seven percent of the people in this country believe the attacks on Donald Trump are politically motivated. Fifty nine percent of those believe Joe Biden is part of it.

And while Paul is correct, the American people are focused on issues out there, a lot of people I've spoken with are angry that they see a weaponized judicial system going after not just a former president, but average Americans for standing up for life. For example, you go to jail, go to a school board meeting and stand up for the curriculum of your children, you go to jail. This is the type of issue that will mobilize a lot of voters out there, regardless of political party.

But I keep hearing the left saying Joe Biden should focus on the issues and he probably will. The problem is he's focused on the wrong ones. Of course, he's going to talk about things like J6 and abortion and threats to democracy. People care about that.

But it's nowhere near the failed policies of his border issues where people are pouring across by the 10s of millions, where you can't pay for gas or for groceries, where we have wars breaking out all over the world, crime spiking in our major cities.

[15:25:06]

These are all the effects of the failed policies of Joe Biden. That's what Donald Trump needs to be talking about. That's what we need to be talking about as Republicans, because it's such a unique situation. You've got two people, both of whom have concrete records as president of the United States. And poll after poll shows the American people trust the policy prescriptions, the America First agenda of Donald Trump over Joe Biden because they know they had record setting success in record setting time, regardless of race, religion, color or creed. That's what the election is going to be down to. And I think the Biden campaign knows it. That's why they're still concerned.

KEILAR: Hogan, I just - like let's can we fact check you on these border numbers? And Paul, you're like fat shaming the former president. I mean, you know, you ...

BEGALA: No, I'm feeling sorry for him. He does not look good. He does not look healthy and I'm worried about him and he's ...

KEILAR: He's sitting in a courtroom ...

BEGALA: I know.

KEILAR: ... for weeks and weeks here.

BEGALA: And listening to a porn star to - testify under oath about how - not so great a lover he is. That's sad.

KEILAR: Okay. I'm just - I'd like to just ...

BEGALA: I feel sorry for the guy. KEILAR: ... go on, Hudson (INAUDIBLE) Hogan, pardon me.

GIDLEY: (INAUDIBLE) ...

BEGALA: My heart goes out to him.

KEILAR: Can we just have a decent conversation?

SANCHEZ: I guess the answer to that is maybe not today.

KEILAR: Maybe not today.

GIDLEY: Yes.

SANCHEZ: Maybe in the future. Maybe in the future.

KEILAR: (INAUDIBLE) Hogan, I was talking to you, buddy. You go.

GIDLEY: Who goes?

KEILAR: Hogan.

GIDLEY: Okay. If we're going to have a conversation about the health of these two men, bring it. I would love to have a conversation about the physical and mental decline.

KEILAR: That is about the last thing ...

SANCHEZ: That's what we're ...

GIDLEY: Second of all ...

SANCHEZ: ... yes.

KEILAR: Hogan ...

GIDLEY: (INAUDIBLE) something to ...

SANCHEZ: We're trying to make this ...

GIDLEY: ... hey, that is an issue for voters, guys. You may not want to admit it. The guy can't ...

KEILAR: No, no, I - Hogan, I get it.

GIDLEY: ... (INAUDIBLE) ...

KEILAR: I know it's an issue for voters.

GIDLEY: I'm sorry. That's just the fact of the matter. People around him are concerned about his health. They have to walk around him in a weird circle to get to Marine One, so no one sees his weird gait. His shoes are (INAUDIBLE) ...

SANCHEZ: I think he ...

KEILAR: Well ...

SANCHEZ: ... I think he misinterpreted what we were saying.

GIDLEY: (INAUDIBLE) ...

KEILAR: Yes. Like ...

SANCHEZ: Maybe (INAUDIBLE), I don't know.

KEILAR: I know.

GIDLEY: ... Democrats saying his age is an issue. I don't know why you (INAUDIBLE) that.

KEILAR: It's like opposite.

SANCHEZ: It's been a conversation.

BEGALA: I think somebody needs a hug.

SANCHEZ: It's been a conversation.

KEILAR: I need a hug right now, I'll tell you that.

SANCHEZ: Hogan, Paul, thank you both for joining us. Maybe we'll do it again, sometime. Appreciate you all.

KEILAR: All right. Still ahead, President Biden - let's reset here - President Biden says Israel has offered up a road map to a ceasefire with Hamas. We're going to take a closer look at the three-phase proposal next.

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