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Jury to Resume Deliberations in Biden Trial; Jonathan Conricus is Interviewed about a Ceasefire Proposal; Garland Speaks out in Op- ed; Suspect Arrested in China Stabbing. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired June 11, 2024 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Happening now, a live look at the federal court in Wilmington, Delaware, where everyone is waiting for word from the jury now. They will be resuming deliberations in Hunter Biden's federal gun trial.

They met for only about one hour yesterday. So, maybe they have hours of work ahead, but word could come any moment, really. The jury is weighing three felony gun charges against the president's son that together carry a maximum penalty of 25 years if convicted.

CNN's Evan Perez is outside the court.

Evan, it was a big day of closing arguments yesterday. What's expected today?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, we have the jurors reconvening this morning. As you pointed out, they -- they had about an hour of deliberations before they ended the day. And the judge said they would just come straight back into the jury deliberation room and reconvene this morning and go through these three charges. They -- they have a form that tells them the standards, the different elements that they have to unanimously agree on in order to reach a verdict. And those include, of course, the idea that Hunter Biden knowingly violated the law when he bought a firearm in October of 2018, that he knew he was addicted to drugs when he filled out that form, and, according to prosecutors, when he lied in be -- in order to be able to get through a background check. Those are the elements that are at the center of this.

We saw the jurors yesterday after about an hour, you know, they seem to have started forming a bond. A couple of them walked out arm in arm as they exited smiling. These are jurors who have been very, very attentive. They've been taking notes during this trial over five days, over really not a lot in dispute in this case. In the end, you know, they're going to have to reach a verdict on someone who is very well known in this community. You saw the Biden family come out in force for them yesterday. Three rows of seats were taken up by members of the community, including an African American church that is doing a prayer service for him every morning, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Talk to me about some of the high points that came out during closing arguments and some of the final things really that the jury heard before they started deliberating.

PEREZ: Yes. Look, it was a very, very tough battle really between this -- that the lawyers involved here. We had Abbe Lowell, who is Hunter Biden's attorney, who used a series of presentations to list what he says were holes in the case on the part of the prosecution. He said these were all reasons for reasonable doubt.

He also accused prosecutors of rehearsing with witnesses. And he accused prosecutors also of being cruel to Naomi Biden, who is Hunter Biden's daughter, who testified here, one of the last witnesses, and asking her whether she did drugs, something that really caused a lot of emotion from her and from her father that day.

On the part of the prosecution, they said, look, Hunter Biden knew he was addicted to drugs. Anyone who puts a crackpipe to their mouth every 15 minutes knows he's an addict.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: Evan Perez. Thank you so much, Evan, as always.

John.

BERMAN: All right, with us now, CNN legal analyst Jennifer Rodgers.

Counselor, we heard from Evan there that the prosecution, in their closing arguments, made direct reference to people in the gallery, which included, you know, at some points that first lady, Hunter Biden's wife, Biden family members, and did so, some people who are watching said pretty aggressively. What's your takeaway there?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, I was surprised at that, actually. I'm not surprised that they addressed that he had so many supporters there, but I would have done it differently, because the risk to the prosecution is that people really sympathize with Hunter Biden.

There's a narrow pathway for them to find him not guilty, but I think it does require them to really have sympathy for him to get there. And so I would have done it by saying, you see he has a lot of support. We all know addiction is a terrible thing. You might find yourself sympathizing with him, but your job as jurors is to follow the law. You have taken an oath that requires you to put aside your sympathy and to look at the facts here. That's what I would have done instead of kind of point -- they are not evidence. Ignore them. I think that's handling it the wrong way.

BERMAN: Because if they are, and we don't know for sure, but if they are sympathetic to the Biden family, you're sort of guilting the jurors, or you're sort of yelling at them about that.

RODGERS: Yes, it's not the right take. I mean, listen, in order to acquit or even to hang, at least some of them have to find this whole thing about, did he knowingly make the false statement? And when you look at all the evidence around his use, not in those two weeks necessarily, but around that time, that's hard to do. So, I do feel like the judges have to -- the jurors have to do a

little bit of nullifying here in order to find him not guilty.

[09:05:04]

And, you know, guilting them into the sympathy is not the way to avoid that I think.

BERMAN: And the judge and the jury instructions seem to make pretty clear that the prosecution version of the law is the one to follow here, which is to say, we don't have to prove that Hunter Biden knew he was addicted the minute the pen hit the paper right there at that moment or that he was using drugs the minute the pen hit the paper at that moment.

RODGERS: That's right. And prosecutors always emphasized too, use your common sense, right? Someone comes out of rehab. They described themselves for years later as an addict. He knows he's an addict. Use your common sense. That's what you should find.

BERMAN: What about the jurors walking hand in hand out of the courtroom. That's a little unusual.

RODGERS: Yes, I haven't seen that before. I mean they often do get close. They spend a lot of time together. Sometimes they're at odds. Sometimes they're not. It's not uncommon for them to form friendships and the like.

Arm in arm, I really haven't heard before. Maybe this is a particularly close group. But, listen, they need to be close, or at least in agreement, in order to reach a unanimous verdict. So, I suppose that's a good sign for prosecutors.

BERMAN: You know, I know people who write Lifetime movies. I mean this could be a good plot, a strange plot for the beginning of some kind of Lifetime romance there.

RODGERS: We'll see.

BERMAN: The jury is in Delaware, which is a very Democratic state, in Wilmington, which is, you know, a very Biden city. The Bidens have been there for decades and decades and decades. How much will that play in the jury room?

RODGERS: Well, prosecutors are trying to avoid that, right? This is why they're saying things like, you know, ignore the famous people in the audience and the like. And the judge has told them the same, listen, you have to put aside your preconceived notions about who he is, who the family is, and just focus on the law and the facts.

But we, of course, don't know what they really do in their own heads and when they're discussing among themselves in the jury room. So, we'll see.

BERMAN: OK, they've been in there for an hour plus like minutes, six minutes, probably, at this point. A long deliberation typically benefits --

RODGERS: The defense. I mean the longer it goes, the more likely that it's hung. It's a simple case. Not very many witnesses. If they don't have a verdict today, it's bad news for the prosecutors.

BERMAN: All right, we'll stand by. It could come at any moment.

Jennifer Rodgers, thanks so much for being with us. Appreciate it.

RODGERS: Thanks.

BERMAN: Happening now, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken is in Jordan, putting new pressure on all parties to accept a ceasefire and hostage deal. Where the negotiation stand right now.

This must stop. What Attorney General Merrick Garland says Republican lawmakers are doing that he says is dangerous for democracy.

And this. Why Martha's Vineyard is running out of pot.

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[09:12:05]

BOLDUAN: This morning, Secretary of State Tony Blinken is in Jordan for a gathering of leaders focused on getting more aid into Gaza. Earlier he was in Israel meeting with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu Blinken. Blinken said -- telling reporters this morning that there is consensus among Netanyahu and other Israeli leaders to move forward on a proposed ceasefire deal that was approved by the U.N. Security Council yesterday. Blinken also saying it all now comes down to Hamas.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: We await the answer from Hamas. And that will speak volumes about what they want, what they're looking for, who they're looking after. Are they looking after one guy who may be for now safe, very, I don't know, ten stories underground somewhere in Gaza, while the people that he purported to represent continue to suffer in a crossfire of his own making, or will he do what's necessary to actually move this to a better place, to help end the suffering of people, to help bring real security to Israelis and Palestinians alike.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: That one guy that Secretary Blinken is referring to is Hamas military leader Yahya Sinwar.

And there is new reporting in "The Wall Street Journal" about messages purportedly from Sinwar to ceasefire negotiators. One message reading, "we have the Israelis right where we want them."

Joining us right now is retired Lieutenant Colonel Jonathan Conricus. He was the spokesperson for the IDF before and after the October 7th attack. We've had him on many a time. He's now a senior fellow with the Foundation of Defense of Democracies.

Colonel, thank you so much for being here.

I want to get to that reporting from "The Wall Street Journal" with some additional contexts in just a second. But first on what we hear from Secretary Blinken meeting with Netanyahu and he also not only said there was consensus, he said that Netanyahu reaffirmed his commitment in support of this hostage and ceasefire deal as it's laid out so far. Do you think they are closer than ever before to an actual deal? We've seen steps forward and then, you know, what -- how do you read this?

LT. COL. JONATHAN CONRICUS (RET.), SENIOR FELLOW, FOUNDATION FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: I sadly don't. And I'm not as positive towards the whole development. I would love to see our hostages home, our 120 hostages home. And I would want to see Israel defeat Hamas and return safety to southern Israel and improve the situation in Gaza.

But I think that the issue of Sinwar is, in his text messages, he hits the nail on the head, sadly. And for months Hamas has been manipulating global public opinion, using international politics. The differences between Washington and Jerusalem. And they have basically been able to stay alive and stay out of jail using the hostages for about three, four, five months. And that's something that I think is the core of Hamas' strategy, to delay and delay as much as possible using the hostages and kind of try to derail Israeli operations in Gaza so that the war will end without Israel defeating Hamas.

[09:15:10]

That's the zero-sum game. And I think that Sinwar doesn't really have a strong incentive to go ahead and release hostages and basically end the war because that is his best tool to stay alive and to keep Hamas in power in Gaza.

BOLDUAN: Let me ask you about that. So, "The Wall Street Journal" reporting, CNN has not seeing "The Wall Street Journal" messages -- the messages that "The Wall Street Journal's" reporting on, cannot confirm the authenticity of them. Still, I want to read some more of the reporting from "The Journal." "We have the Israelis right where we want them." We read -- it was one message. And these are messages to the negotiators of the -- to the ceasefire negotiators is what this is.

CONRICUS: Yes, to his team.

BOLDUAN: And this is another one. "In one message to Hamas leaders in Doha, Sinwar cited civilian losses in national liberation conflicts in places such as Algeria, where hundreds of thousands of people died fighting for independence from France saying, quote, these are necessary sacrifices."

Here's the thing. If this is the case, if this is the zero sum game that you're talking about, if this is the strategy, how does Israel take on Hamas, take out Hamas, deal with Sinwar, without playing into his hands? CONRICUS: That's a good question. And I think that the Israeli strategy has been so far to try to get to Sinwar, get to the senior leadership of Hamas. So far not succeeding. Probably because he is hidden underground with lots of Israeli hostages surrounding him as human shields. And so far what Israel said -- hasn't been able to do is to advance fast enough and to get to Sinwar and basically decide the battle. It took Israel many months of staging in order to finally get into Rafah. There was tremendous outcry and there were protests that Israel shouldn't and must not go into Rafah. Israel is in Rafah and there's no humanitarian catastrophe and there's no mass casualty event, which proves that Israel can and should do what it's doing.

BOLDUAN: There is a humanitarian crisis throughout Gaza, though. You -- you -- you know that.

CONRICUS: Definitely. Yes. But I'm talking about -- that there's not a slaughter, not a catastrophe like people warned that there would be.

BOLDUAN: Do you think -- some have thought, hoped, maybe conjectured that the rescue operation from the weekend could have changed the calculus. They are getting three men out, men that were not supposed to be in the first batch of any ceasefire negotiation --

CONRICUS: Yes.

BOLDUAN: Getting those hostages out. Do you think has -- do you think that changes the calculations you're discussing for Hamas? Do you think that could scare them to the table?

CONRICUS: It's a very happy event, but eventually it only proves that I think it strengthens the case of getting hostages out via negotiations because I don't think that Israel has the intelligence capacity or the otherwise military capacity to get more hostages out, like this, because this was a top of the shelf special operations with weeks of preparation, intel, tip of the spear Israeli commando units that got in, got the job done, got the hostages out, and I don't think that we'll, sadly, have the ability to do so over and over again.

And I don't think that it changes the calculation. And I think that Iran, Hezbollah are a much bigger threat. You know, we're focused on Gaza --

BOLDUAN: Yes.

CONRICUS: And small details in Gaza. The big deal and the big threat to regional stability is Hezbollah against Israel.

And if you look at where alarms are sounding most in Israel, it's in northern Israel, and it's rockets and drones, et cetera.

BOLDUAN: Well, and, sadly, when you're talking about where Israel is situated, all -- it's all big crisis. It's all big alarms that are sounding.

CONRICUS: It is.

BOLDUAN: From -- from Hamas in Gaza to the neighbors around, which is funded in -- funded and supplied and supported by Iran.

On -- in terms of the motivation and position of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Blinken says that he reaffirmed his support for a deal today.

CONRICUS: Right.

BOLDUAN: But President Biden told "Time" magazine, in a very recent interview, and here's how he put it, "there is every reason for people to draw the conclusion that Netanyahu is prolonging the war for his own political gain."

What's your reaction to that?

CONRICUS: As an Israeli, as a father to children who will soon be serving in the military, I really, really hope that isn't true. And I would like to see evidence that states the otherwise from my elected leadership. I think it's very important, and what we lacked now in Israel, is unity and trust. We are, as you rightly said, surrounded by so many enemies that are challenging or very existence. And what the Israeli public now is going through, there's battle fatigue. Eight months of fighting. Relentless alarms and sirens. And 100,000 people are evacuated from their homes in northern Israel.

And the war goes on. We had four casualties reported just this morning. Lots of pressure on Israeli society. And what's desperately needed is unity, is leadership, and to take -- carry Israel forward in what I think will be the coming years, not months, the coming years will be very challenging.

BOLDUAN: You don't think President Biden was so off base to say that?

[09:20:01]

CONRICUS: I don't know. But I really hope that Israeli leadership gets its act together, unifies, gets all of the parties in Israeli politics that are Zionist and Israeli and want to live here safely and respectfully, get themselves together and focus on the most important thing, which isn't political sustainability, but it is winning the war, defending Israeli civilians, and making sure that Israelis can go back to their homes as they lived before October the 7th.

BOLDUAN: Jonathan Conricus, Lieutenant Colonel, thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate you coming in the studio.

CONRICUS: Thank you for having me. Thank you.

BOLDUAN: At least four U.S. college professors are wounded after what's being described as a brutal stabbing attack in China. One person has now been arrested. What we are all -- what we are learning this morning about that suspect.

Plus, the new -- the big news from Apple. A new partnership with ChatGPT creator, OpenAI. How the company plans to integrate AI into its products.

We'll be back.

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[09:25:31]

BERMAN: All right, new this morning, Attorney General Merrick Garland is warning against what he calls the unfounded attacks on the Department of Justice that he says are putting his staff and democracy in danger. In a scathing "Washington Post" op-ed, he writes, quote, "they come in the form of false claims that the department is politicizing its work to somehow influence the outcome of an election. Such claims are often made by those who are themselves attempting to politicize the department's work to influence the outcome of an election." He adds, "these attacks come in the form of threats to defund particular department investigations, most recently the special counsel's prosecution of the former president."

This rare, public rebuke comes as House Republicans are preparing to take the next step today in charging the attorney general with contempt of Congress.

CNN's Lauren Fox is with us now from Capitol Hill.

Lauren, he doesn't mention Republicans in this op-ed, but it's pretty clear who he's talking about.

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think there's no mistake about who he is directing his frustration toward. Today, House Republicans are going to meet in the House Rules Committee this afternoon to try and advance two proposals to move forward with this contempt of Congress against Garland. We expected that the vote could come later this week.

Of course, Speaker Mike Johnson can only afford to lose two Republican members. That means, of course, that they are confident that they have the support of their party moving ahead.

But, you know, it is important to just point out what House Republicans are asking for is the audio recording of Special Counsel Robert Hur's interview with President Joe Biden. Now, the transcripts have been released, but this became a major topic of conversation last week when Merrick Garland came before the committee where many members brought up the fact that they want to check that transcript, that they want to hear the president, in his own words. They want to see whether or not he had any pauses. That was something that multiple House Republicans brought up when Merrick Garland came before the House Judiciary Committee last week.

We do expect that if they can move ahead and pass this on the House floor it would then put the power in Speaker Mike Johnson to refer this to the attorney in Washington, D.C., who would make a decision on whether or not to bring charges against Merrick Garland.

We should just point out that this has been tried by several congresses in the past. Nothing ever actually came of it when it came to the attorney general. You had Eric Holder, who was held in contempt of Congress. William Barr, who was held in contempt of Congress. But just some important context there as we move forward with this vote later this week.

John.

BERMAN: Important context to say the least. Lauren Fox, great to see you. Thank you very much.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: We're learning new details about an attack on four Americans in China. One of the victims has been identified as David Zabner. He and three other instructors from Iowa's Cornell College were visiting a partner school when they were attacked. Video of the incident shows the victims on the ground after the attack. That same video, though, was quickly taken down in China right after it was posted, censored. A Chinese tourist was also injured in the attack and a suspect is now in custody.

Let's get over to Marc Stewart. He's in the city where this attack happened.

Marc, what are you learning about this arrest now?

MARC STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, Kate, the arrest was made yesterday, but we only learned about it just tonight. So, obviously, there was a -- there was a gap. And the explanation from police as to what prompted the suspect, the suspect simply said he somehow ran into this group of American educators and somehow this prompted this stabbings. So, obviously, there are a lot of gaps, a lot of holes, a lot of questions.

I want to show you the scene of the stabbing. We were there just a few hours ago. It's about a 15 minute hike from where we are right now. When we arrived, any evidence of the violence had been literally washed away. There were some stains on the ground where perhaps that blood was. A contrast from the images that we saw shortly after when we saw these injured Americans laying on the ground, covered in blood. That's in addition to this Chinese tourists who stepped in to intervene, to try -- to try to help.

This park, in the middle of the city, is very much reminiscent of a large park you would see in any American suburb. There are trails. There's a train that goes through it. There's a temple. We've seen a lot of retirees. We've seen a lot of families. This appears to be a very safe place.

[09:29:59]

As investigators try to fill in the gaps in all of this, it also is important to look at the current environment right now in China for Americans.