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Biden & Trump Preparing For First Presidential Debate On CNN; Trump's Lawyers Ask NY Judge Who Oversaw Civil Fraud Case To Recuse Himself. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired June 20, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: A make-or-break moment in an historic election with one week until the presidential debate here on CNN, both candidates are focused on making their cases to voters and avoiding those moments that can turn a contender into a pretender.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: And a new report says the judge in a classified documents case for Donald Trump, the judge who was appointed by the former president, ignored advice from two other judges that she should step aside and let someone more senior handle the case.

Plus, classrooms in Louisiana getting something new for the school year, the Ten Commandments. We're going to talk to one group that's suing over the new law in that state.

We're following these major developing stories and many more, all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KEILAR: A historic showdown, now just one week away. The stage is set. President Biden and former President Trump will have their first debate of the 2024 race next Thursday, right here on CNN and we just learned some new information on how the debate is going to go down. After having a coin flip to determine the order of closing statements and podium placements, the Trump campaign chose to go last for closing statements, meaning that Trump will get the final word.

This came after the Biden campaign won the coin toss and selected the right podium position. But before both candidates take the debate stage next week, we're learning some new details about how they're both preparing. We have CNN's MJ Lee at the White House following this for us.

So, MJ, President Biden is expected to arrive at Camp David tonight. What do we know about how he'll be preparing there?

MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Brianna, we expect President Biden to be at Camp David for a stretch of days where he is going to be really hunkered down with a small group of senior aides to intensively focus on debate prep. But, of course, that process has already started, beginning with these binders that will hold a list of questions and topics that could potentially come up at that debate stage and all of the answers that the President could potentially give.

And back in 2020, the President was known to have given really detailed feedback on all of the answers that he might offer on the debate stage. And then as we get closer to debate night, we expect that the Biden team is going to do full run-throughs of these mock debates. And we, of course, know that the President's lawyer, Bob Bauer, did play the role of Donald Trump last time around. We're still waiting on word on exactly who is going to be playing that role again. It could, once again, be Bob Bauer.

But the broader strategy here for the Biden team is looking for every opportunity to draw a contrast with Donald Trump on every issue like reproductive rights, which is some, of course, the White House and campaign talk about a lot to draw that contrast. And also trying to paint Donald Trump as having been politically divisive, a threat to democracy.

And we know that the campaign is hoping that at the end of the night, the audience will have seen Donald Trump as chaotic and divisive and seeing President Biden as sort of the alternative, steadier version of that.

Now, we know that one campaign official has said, you know, that Joe Biden has been punchier recently in his remarks going after Donald Trump. And they are hoping that that is the version of President Biden that is going to be appearing on the debate stage next week.

KEILAR: All right. We'll be looking to see if that's the case.

MJ Lee, live for us from the White House, thank you.

And let's bring in CNN's Alayna Treene now. How is Trump preparing for this?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Well, I'll tell you one thing he's not doing and it's mock debates. Even though we heard that just from MJ right now that President Joe Biden is doing that, Donald Trump is not. Now, remember, in the past he has done mock debates. He's had Rudy Giuliani, Chris Christie stand in for his opponents. But Donald Trump's team this time around is saying he doesn't need as much preparation, that him going to rallies and doing media interviews is his form of preparing.

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However, of course he needs to prepare. And when I talk to his team, they say, of course we need to do our homework. They just don't want to say that publicly. So what I'm told is that he's had more than a dozen what they're dubbing policy discussions with senators, potential vice presidential candidates, policy experts.

And some of those conversations have centered on his discussion around his handling of the January 6th Capitol attack. We know he met with Sen. Marco Rubio, a key vice presidential contender, last week. He also talked about the economy in a session with J.D. Vance earlier this month at Mar-a-Lago. There's also been discussions about how to frame his recent conviction in his New York hush money trial.

So all things where Donald Trump's team recognizes that he really needs to sharpen his message and see how they want to frame that to the American people. And it's not just policy as well that they're discussing, they're also talking about his rhetoric. We know that in past debates he's become very aggressive, wouldn't let Biden get a word in, and his numbers seem to fall after that. And so there's discussion around there about reining in some of that aggressive behavior as well.

KEILAR: And a mic catch in the middle of your ...

TREENE: Yes.

KEILAR: ... without a stop, I will notice. Alayna Treene, thank you so much. It's really interesting to see how obviously they're preparing but very differently and sort of characteristically, I will say ...

TREENE: Right.

KEILAR: ... for both of them. Thank you. Boris?

SANCHEZ: Let's get some analysis now from debate expert and professor at Southern Illinois University, Carbondale, Todd Graham.

Todd, thanks so much for sharing part of your afternoon with us. What do you make of the very different approaches to debate prep from these candidates?

TODD GRAHAM, CNN DEBATE ANALYST: This is not a surprise that Donald Trump is not going through official debate prep because he's always sort of been that way, both in 2016 and 2020. In fact, it might at this point be to his advantage to not try something different because the only thing really that he got out of debate prep in 2020 was COVID.

So that didn't work out. His first debate was terrible. So I think him just kind of doing what makes him feel comfortable is good. But if I were coaching him, I would be more on the Biden team of actually practicing, talking about policy issues, what will Trump say, et cetera. So I think I give the advantage in preparation to Biden.

One thing you have to remember is neither one of them have debated in this cycle. So it's been four years since either one have debated. And every time we see a debater who hasn't - a presidential candidate who hasn't debated in four years, they usually start that first debate quite badly. So I'm looking for some rough spots at the beginning of the debate.

SANCHEZ: Yes, there may be some rust. And there's also a different dynamic at play because last time around in the 2020 debates, the candidates clashed, they talked over each other. This time, the mics are going to be muted for candidates when it's not their turn to speak. There's also not going to be an audience. How is that dynamic, do you think, going to play out?

GRAHAM: I think those rules were made and designed because of the way Donald Trump debates. We haven't had to have those rules before because, frankly, no other debater has been outside of the norm of what's considered presidential debates. But because Trump's interruptions, et cetera, in that first debate in 2020 with him and Biden yelling back and forth was so chaotic, it really gave him a false impression.

In fact, one of Donald Trump's top aides said more than getting COVID, the worst thing that happened to him was that first debate against Biden when he just yelled at him for an hour and a half. Now, so these rules are designed to prevent that interrupting. So with the microphone muted, they won't be able to speak or they can speak, et cetera.

So one thing to look out for, just because your microphone is muted doesn't mean you can't talk. So it's possible, and I've seen this in other debate forums that I've watched, it's possible for your opponent to be talking over you even though the audience can't hear them. It can still distract you.

And so if Trump decides to talk over Biden, it will make Biden look like he's stumbling over his speech because we won't hear Trump. We will simply see Biden stumbling. So that's one potential sort of problem, but I love (INAUDIBLE) no audience. I could go into that for detail if you'd like.

SANCHEZ: Sure, go for it.

GRAHAM: All right, here it is. I've written some columns for CNN about how I can't stand debate audiences because they're just cheering and whooping at all the wrong times, and it makes you feel like you make a good argument when you probably don't. Here's why I think no audience disadvantages Donald Trump. He is only used to getting friendly interviews, and he's only used to speaking at rallies. Those are people who like to applaud what he has to say, and Donald Trump can be funny at times, and he plays off the audience.

With no audience in there, the emperor's better got some clothes on because he and Biden are going to have to be very good on their policy answers because there's no audience in there to either cheer Trump on, on an irrelevant answer or to stop the moderators from being more aggressive. One thing you might note is audiences have been able to shush moderators and boo them out of saying certain questions and asking things if they get upset. Well, now they won't.

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So if Donald Trump or Joe Biden doesn't answer the question, the reporters will simply say, hey, you didn't answer the question, we'd like you to keep trying, and you can keep doing that with no audience. So I think no audience plays better into seeing what their policy positions really are. I think it will help the overall informativeness of the debate. SANCHEZ: Yes, there's a lot there to watch out for. A quick question, so there was a coin flip today and Biden's team won. They chose the President's podium position over deciding the order of closing arguments. So Biden will be standing on the right side of the TV screen. What's behind that decision? Wouldn't - I'm guessing you might have wanted your candidate to have the last word, no?

GRAHAM: No, not necessarily. What I don't understand is why they picked a particular podium. I've not done any research on this. I don't know if the right side or left side is more persuasive, et cetera. But what I do know is in presidential debates, very few people watch until the very end. So the opening statements, if there were some but there aren't, are more important than the closing statements. Very few people stick around to the closing, and the closings are always pretty generic, vote for me, et cetera.

And I've watched the last 70 presidential debates, primaries and not, and I think the closings are fairly worthless. So no there's no problem in the closings.

SANCHEZ: You will still want to tune in, though, for the very end of this CNN debate. Just seven days away, moderated by Dana Bash and Jake Tapper, June 27th right here on CNN.

Todd Graham, fascinating to talk to you. I look forward to having you on again.

GRAHAM: Yes, and the best stuff is always found at the end of the debate, so please tune in.

SANCHEZ: Good point, good thinking. Thanks so much.

Still ahead, we're following a pair of breaking stories involving former President Trump's legal cases. The first involves his civil fraud case. Trump's legal team now asking the judge who oversaw that case to recuse himself. We'll explain why.

And then there's news involving the classified documents case. The New York Times reporting that two federal judges urged Judge Aileen Cannon to decline that case. We have details still to come on CNN News Central.

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KEILAR: We're following breaking news, lawyers for former President Trump asking the New York judge who ordered him to pay nearly half a billion dollars to recuse himself from the case. That was the result, of course, of Trump's civil fraud case in New York where he was accused of lying about the value of various assets.

Trump's lawyers allege that Judge Arthur Engoron engaged in prohibited communications with a real estate lawyer about the case before issuing his decision. SANCHEZ: Let's get to CNN's Kara Scannell. She broke this story and joins us now alongside former federal prosecutor Renato Mariotti. Kara, what are you learning?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So, Trump's lawyers have filed this motion with Judge Engoron asking him to recuse himself from the case. And as you say, this all dates to some conversations that the judge allegedly had with a New York real estate lawyer a few weeks before he issued his decision. This is all based on a report by NBC who spoke with the attorney, this New York real estate lawyer, Adam Bailey, who said that he had conversations with the judge in the courthouse before the decision was issued.

Now, the spokesman for the court at the time told NBC that there were no communications about this case between the judge and this lawyer, so they've denied that there were any communications that took place. But Trump's lawyers are saying this attorney had told NBC that this had happened and that he had conversations with the judge. And the - judges are not supposed to have conversations about a case without all the attorneys and everyone present.

So they're taking this NBC story and the attorney's statements there and saying that that is reason why the judge should now recuse himself. They're saying if the judge won't recuse himself, they want him to allow them to hold a hearing to explore some evidence in this to understand what had actually happened between - before a different judge.

Now, Judge Engoron has not yet weighed in on this matter. We've not yet heard back from a spokesman for the court about this, if there's any additional update to what they had previously said, denying that there was any communications. But, you know, this is the latest move by Trump's team to try to move the judge off the case because even though the case and the judgment is on appeal, this judge is still overseeing a monitor who is in place to look over The Trump Organization's finances now for the next several years, Boris, Brianna?

KEILAR: All right, Kara. Let's bring in Renato to talk about this.

So, Renato, it sounds bad, but then as you get into the details, you realize that this particular lawyer actually approached the judge - so it was the lawyer, not the judge, initiating this conversation - did not mention Trump by name in this conversation, although the lawyer says we weren't talking about the Mets. But it also seems that the lawyer gave him his two cents on why, like, a large judgment would actually be bad for business, and clearly the judge didn't take that advice. So is there really a lot of standing here for what Trump's lawyers are saying?

SANCHEZ: Renato?

KEILAR: Can you hear us? Is he absorbing - he's absorbing my question.

SANCHEZ: I think he's taking a moment just to reflect. KEILAR: It was a long question, in fairness. All right, we're going to try to reestablish that and we'll talk a little bit about it. But it is really interesting as you - we're going to get him, so just bear with us as we sort of chat about this. But it is interesting - oh, Renato, can you hear us?

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RENATO MARIOTTI, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I can.

KEILAR: Okay, great.

SANCHEZ: There he is.

KEILAR: Did you hear my question at all?

MARIOTTI: I did not.

KEILAR: All right. Well, okay, I'm just going to ask you this. Does this - do Trump's lawyers have standing? Because when you dig into this, you find out the lawyer actually initiated the conversation. Trump wasn't mentioned by name and the lawyer appeared to give him, the judge, advice that he doesn't seem to have taken.

MARIOTTI: Yes, I think that's an interesting question. It certainly suggests that he may not and that'll really, I would say, depend on the specifics of the situation.

SANCHEZ: Yes, let's look at what was actually said in the NBC interview. It reads, quote, "Bailey said he explained to the judge that a fraud statute at issue in the case was not intended to be used to shut down a major company especially in a case without clear victims." He said such ruling would hurt New York's economy.

That was very similar to the arguments that we heard from Trump himself and the Trump team. And obviously, Engoron rejected it. So it doesn't sound like the Trump team's argument - like it doesn't sound that this real estate lawyer really had a sway over Judge Engoron. Is that fair to say?

MARIOTTI: I think that's fair to say. I'll just also say more generally that when you have a trial that's been completed, it really takes a lot to overturn a trial like that. And as a practical matter, given the facts and circumstances here, I'd be surprised if they were successful.

KEILAR: All right, Renato, if you can stand by for us, we're also following some breaking news in President Trump's classified documents case.

SANCHEZ: Yes, The New York Times reports that two federal judges in South Florida urged the judge in that case, Aileen Cannon, to decline it and to hand it off to another judge. This apparently happened when the case was first assigned to Cannon last year. One judge, Cecilia Altonaga, declined to comment when CNN asked her about this new report. The other judge was not named by the Times. KEILAR: Now, despite the two judges' suggestions, Judge Cannon, who was appointed by Trump, ignored their recommendations, went ahead and kept the case. And of course, she has faced tons of scrutiny over her handling of it. Cannon indefinitely postponed the trial last month, citing issues with the evidence that could not be worked out before the case was set to go before a jury.

Renato, what do you think about the - what do you think about this?

MARIOTTI: It's absolutely extraordinary. There have been questions raised about Judge Cannon and how she handled not just this case that we have in front of us, but really, more particularly, how she handled the investigation. I mean, it's very, very rare, if not unheard of, for a federal judge to interfere in an ongoing criminal investigation before charges are brought.

And the way in which she did that resulted, of course, in an - in - I think, an embarrassing opinion for her from the Court of Appeals. And, you know, given all of that, there was a lot of questioning in the media, amongst the public, it - you know, all in political circles about whether or not it made any sense for her to be handling this case, was she biased and so forth.

It really speaks volumes, though, that you have the chief judge of that court and another senior judge in that court going to her and saying, this is not a good idea. You should not handle this case. You should not be the one out in front making those decisions. It's going to call into question your impartiality. And essentially, she disregarded their advice.

I would say it's an extraordinary event and I think what it underscores, and I hope our viewers understand this, that once a federal judge is on a case, it's very difficult for that to change. And even here, when the chief judge of the district suggests that that would be a wise move, that alone is not enough for a judge potentially to step aside.

SANCHEZ: Renato, as a former prosecutor, how do you think this sits with Jack Smith and the prosecutors on his team?

MARIOTTI: Well, I will tell you, there's been growing and mounting frustration from Jack Smith and his team, and it's evident in their filings. They're expressing a lot of, you know, resentment, upsetment that they aren't able to move their case forward because essentially the judge has indefinitely delayed the case. There's no trial date right now set in Trump's case. It's not moving forward very quickly at all and they're very frustrated. It's evident in their filings. And the question is, what are they going to do about it.

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Really, they have limited options. One of them is when she makes a ruling for which they can try to seek immediate relief from the Court of Appeals, they can try to do that. It's called a writ of mandamus. But it's very, you know, rarely granted. It's an extraordinary remedy. And I think that this reporting, while it's not going to find its way into a legal filing, is going to add not only to this conversation and to the questions around it, but it may spur that team to be more aggressive in trying to seek review of Judge Cannon's decisions or the lack thereof.

KEILAR: Yes, really interesting stuff. Renato, thank you for your input there. We appreciate it.

And ahead, Israel is facing the growing possibility of all-out war on a new front as the Lebanon-based terror group Hezbollah ramps up its attacks and threats from next door. We'll have that next.

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