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Espionage Trial for Detained U.S. Journalist Begins in Russia; Biden and Trump Face Off Tomorrow Night in Debate; "Deep Dive: The Shark Wars" Airs Sunday at 8 PM ET/PT. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired June 26, 2024 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

JOSHUA YAFFA, FRIEND OF EVAN GERSHKOVICH: ... That we're able to find some resolution to this where Evan comes home, a place he should be, you know, have been from the very beginning. But now that this case has advanced to the point of this trial, which I'm tempted to put in air quotes, because this is less a legal proceeding than a kind of political show trial conducted for other motives, but nonetheless, the real emotion is one that that of hoping that Evan can make his way home soon. And in the meantime, continues to be strong and in good spirits and in good health, which amazingly, after a year and a half in Russian custody, he seems to have maintained.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Yes, and he's been in a small cell in Moscow, but he was moved for the trial. And I'm wondering if you have any idea of what his living conditions are like now and where he's being kept now.

YAFFA: I don't. You're right in noting that he had been held in Lefortovo prison in Moscow, which is known as the kind of house prison or the detention facility under the control of the FSB, Russia's main security agency. And Lefortovo is known for its difficult conditions in terms of isolation, sensory deprivation in terms of not really being exposed to other people or outside. And it's a very tightly controlled environment.

He's been moved to Yekaterinburg, the site of his trial that is now ongoing to a detention facility there. It's all so new that we don't really know much about this new facility in Yekaterinburg.

But at the end of the day, you know, as I mentioned in my remarks a minute ago, wherever Evan's being held, whatever Russian jail or detention facility has custody over Evan, it's a place where he shouldn't be because these charges against him are false and he's being held as a hostage and such, he should be released.

So I hope that the conditions in Yekaterinburg are no worse and that perhaps even Evan finds some relief, psychological, if not physical, but we don't know much more beyond that.

SANCHEZ: I'm wondering what you think about there not being reporters allowed in the courtroom during the trial itself. How concerned are you about transparency as this process unfolds, as you described it, a trial in air quotes? YAFFA: Well it's not surprising that the trial is being conducted in secrecy. That's very convenient to label the charges of the evidence secret when there is no evidence or the evidence, if it were to be made public, would be understood to be so clearly flimsy, if not false, as to warrant all sorts of doubt, if not ridicule, about the process. So it's very convenient to declare the matter top secret, to not let journalists in.

That allows the judge, the prosecutors, the FSB to conduct the trial in secret without having to reveal this evidence or open themselves up to any scrutiny or criticism. So in that sense, I'm not surprised. It is, of course, worrying and it only deepens the outrage that our friend is not only being held hostage, but he's being held hostage without his hostage takers really having to explain themselves. And I find that very frustrating and angering.

But like I said, not surprising because I know, and all of Evan's friends, colleagues know, that there really isn't anything to these charges. And so to expose them to the kind of daylight, the kind of investigation that Evan himself, as a professional journalist, carries out, I think they know that that wouldn't reflect well on them. And so since they have total control over this process, easier just to make it secret.

SANCHEZ: Joshua Yaffa, we have to leave the conversation there. We appreciate you sharing some of your afternoon with us.

YAFFA: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Still ahead, our next guest is a debate coach. And he says that President Biden has to avoid just one thing during tomorrow night's debate. What it is when we come back.

[15:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: As we draw closer to tomorrow night's CNN debate, we know that President Biden is taking the more formal, traditional approach to preparing holding mock debates at Camp David with his personal attorney, Bob Bauer, standing in for former President Trump.

Former President Trump's camp, though, has tried to downplay his need to prepare. Though we are told his team is fully aware of his first debate against Joe Biden back in 2020, where he constantly interrupted, prompting a fed up Biden to say, will you shut up, man?

I want to talk more now about this with Todd Graham. He's a professor of debate at Southern Illinois University. All right, Todd, so according to polls, when you look at the issues here and how these candidates stack up, Biden is seen as weaker on the economy, the border, and crime compared to Trump, even though he does have some decent trends and statistics that he can certainly point to. But people just really aren't feeling it when it comes to those issues. So how should he deal with that in this debate? TODD GRAHAM, PROFESSOR OF DEBATE, SOUTHERN ILLINOIS UNIVERSITY: I think one of the things is he's had trouble highlighting his accomplishments. So if there's some way that he can make that short and to the point when he answers the questions, I think that would be excellent.

[15:40:00]

One of Biden's problems in debates from the last cycle is that he would talk about something that came up previously in the debate when he was asked a particular question. And then at the end, he would get around to that given question he was being asked. And I think he needs to do the reverse of that, because he can tout some of his accomplishments if he answers the question first by saying, you know, I got this passed or I got the infrastructure passed, et cetera. So I think that's one way.

But in general, a lot of these debates are it's just a feel. You have to come out and you have to see him. And yet people have to see Biden maybe for the first time in a while. They have to feel like, yes, he can be president. He's got to be energetic and he's got to be on point.

KEILAR: Does he need to confront the issue of age? Does he need to have one of those moments like we saw with Reagan and Mondale in their second debate?

GRAHAM: I really don't think so. I don't think he needs to do that. What I think he needs to is put up. I think he needs to show us through his answers that he's ready to go. I think that's the only way. You can't have one good line that that can take away four years of the countervailing narrative on the other side of the aisle.

When Reagan had that line slip up or when they thought he did in the first debate, they had that line prepared for him in the second debate. But there really wasn't everyone out there talking about how he had been slipping as much as we've heard about Biden. So how Biden counters that is he shows a lot of energy and he answers the questions on point. That's all he has to do. And then that narrative goes away.

KEILAR: Trump is not really preparing formally. He is sort of an untraditional candidate. He does seem aware, though, of the temperament issue that he had in the first debate compared to the second debate with Joe Biden in the last cycle.

What do you think about what you've learned about his approach to this go around?

GRAHAM: So while I think the two things Joe Biden need to do to counter what is the narrative against him are to have energy and to answer the questions directly. I think Donald Trump's two problems in these debates are that he, unfortunately, he lies excessively. Daniel Dale from CNN called his second debate, the one he was on in last year, an avalanche or four years ago, an avalanche of lies.

So he has to calm down on the hyperbole and the lies. And like you said, he's got to be more calming. One of the things Trump likes to do is use humor. But without an audience there, humor can backfire. And so if he starts to use humor that's a little bit more satirical in nature or a little mean in nature without an audience that they're laughing, it can come across as rude. And unfortunately, that's something that he'll need to work on is the interrupting and the rude.

KEILAR: Yes, that's interesting. OK, the mics are muted, right? We should note this, that if one candidate is speaking, it's not that the other candidate can't talk, I suppose. But we won't be able to hear them or they won't be audible as they were in the first debate in the last cycle. What do you think the effect is going to be on the debate of this?

GRAHAM: I think it's got to be an improvement. We did have muted microphones in their second debate last year. And I think everybody needs to remember, we didn't have to have these rules before Trump. None of these were rules before Trump. But the muted microphone can certainly work as it did last time and help out. There will be some things we miss, obviously, because the mics are on or off, etc.

My worry is that one of the two debaters will figure out, oh, my mic's muted, but I can still talk. And what happens, I've watched tons of public debates where the person speaking gets interrupted by someone on the other side, their opponent, etc. And while we in the audience, in the TV audience, we can't hear the opponent, we see the person speaking begin to stumble and flummox over their words.

And if Trump decides he wants to continue interrupting Biden, it might give an impression that Biden is stumbling and can't give through a speech because we can't hear Trump or see him interrupting.

KEILAR: I was wondering the very same thing, Todd. So I'm glad that you bring it up. We'll have to see how that is dealt with.

Todd Graham, great to get your perspective on this ahead of this big night. Thank you so much.

GRAHAM: Absolutely.

KEILAR: And be sure to tune in tomorrow night at 9:00 for the CNN presidential debate. We'll have special coverage all day live from Atlanta.

And ahead, how disagreements between scientists and fishermen about the impact of sharks is hurting efforts to protect the crucial ocean predators. Boris taking us on a deep dive into the issue next.

[15:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Sharks have been on the planet long before dinosaurs walked the earth, but their numbers are dwindling. According to estimates, 100 million are killed by humans every year.

SANCHEZ: Yes, and they're facing a lot of pressures from overfishing to climate change, and that's left some species facing possible extinction. In fact, one in three are near extinction. Some fishermen maintain, though, that here in the United States, regulations have worked extremely well, and now shark populations locally are out of control, making it more difficult for them to make a living.

I had the chance to dive into this conflict by going out with a shark behaviorist for the next episode of "THE WHOLE STORY WITH ANDERSON COOPER." Here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Big step forward. Ready, go. Look up!

So as we go down, we reach the bottom of the line. It's at 30 feet. And then we'll move right in the middle of the sand.

SANCHEZ (voice-over): And as we settle into position, Christina Zanotto spots familiar faces.

CHRISTINA ZANOTTO: But we have Hawk. We have Half-Baked. We have Vulcan. We have Crook. We have Floppy. Reach out and pet the shark head, same as if you would be shaking somebody's hand.

Relax, right? Gentle breathing. Don't try to do too much.

[15:50:00]

Wait for the shark to come in. You're going to reach out and pet.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KEILAR: Wow. Joining us now is Paul de Gelder, a shark conservationist. Also, a shark attack survivor and Discovery Shark Week expert. Thank you so much for being with us.

And I mean, as I just mentioned, you have this incredibly unique perspective. I think a lot of people would say shark attack survivor who is also a conservationist and an outspoken one at that. Explain that to us.

PAUL DE GELDER, DISCOVERY SHARK WEEK EXPERT: Well, I really feel like after my shark attack, it was a nice transfer from my military service as an airborne soldier and a Navy bomb disposal diver. And I figured it's, you know, instead of standing up for people that can't stand up for themselves, now understanding the plight of sharks, I have a voice that can speak up for an animal that doesn't have one itself. And I figure that's a pretty powerful thing to have.

And if me, myself, having lost two limbs to a shark, can learn to forgive and understand the actual reason that we need sharks in these ecological environments, then surely everyone else can as well.

SANCHEZ: Paul, it's great to chat with you. I have enjoyed your work for a long time. I'm curious what you think about this sort of conflict with fishermen talking about depredation here in U.S. waters, saying that sharks are making it more difficult for them to earn a living because they're going head to head with conservationists who are saying that populations are being depleted at an unsustainable rate.

DE GELDER: Yes, well, the science says that too. And you got to look at the motivations of everyone involved, take it from both sides of the story. And the shark fishermen, they have fun. They go out there, it's their enjoyment, it's their peace to go out there and torture these sharks and drag them around by the face with a big hook in it. They also make a living off that as well.

As opposed to the conservationists and people like us on Shark Week that love these sharks, that see how important they are, want to protect them. And also the fact that these sharks, after a study, have been designated as more valuable alive than dead, like 10, 20 times more valuable just through ecotourism.

And so these animals have a right to exist in our oceans. And the thing that a lot of people don't understand, especially these fishermen, these sharks are hugely migratory species. So they don't belong to one state. They don't even belong to one country. Some of these sharks traveled from Australia to Hawaii, from Florida to the Bahamas. And so you're effectively removing them from both countries and they have no safe place to go.

KEILAR: How do you dispel the negative perceptions of sharks?

DE GELDER: By using the truth. That's the easiest way. We're not making up fantastical stories. There's no fishermen stories here. And we show and prove it through shows like Shark Week. We get out there, we dive with these beautiful animals without a cage.

And Boris, you went and saw it, you went and did it with some of my friends. I'm sure your perspective has changed as well. Just seeing them in their natural environment, these sharks, they all have names.

They're like family to some of these people. And that is a truly remarkable thing to be able to achieve, to show people the reality behind these sharks instead of the normal media hysteria of the monsters lurking in the ocean, waiting to snatch your children.

SANCHEZ: They are incredible animals. And I suggest that if anyone out there is inclined to do it, you go with a reputable outfit and enjoy yourself. It really is awe-inspiring.

Paul De Gelder, thanks so much for joining us.

DE GELDER: Thank you so much for having me.

SANCHEZ: Of course.

You can watch "DEEP DIVE: THE SHARK WARS" this Sunday at 8 p.m. Eastern and Pacific right here on CNN.

KEILAR: And if that's not enough shark action for you, you can't get enough. Shark Week starts Sunday, July 7th on Discovery with episodes streaming on Max. We'll be right back. [15:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GROUP OF WOMEN: One, two, three, beat cancer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Politicians and members of the Washington Press Corps are stepping up to the plate tonight for the 16th annual Congressional Women's Softball Game. This morning, a few of those lawmakers and journalists got together for a little pregame warmup and some trash talking, which is just a perennial feature of this summer tradition. The bipartisan game was first played in 2009.

Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz organized the game after her breast cancer diagnosis. She did that along with her former Republican colleague, Joanne Emerson, and Senators Kirsten Gillibrand and Susan Collins. All proceeds from the event benefit the Young Survival Coalition to help young women who are diagnosed with breast cancer.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REP. DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ (D-FL): We all come together, the members come together against our common adversary, the female press corps, but our real common adversary is fighting breast cancer. When we're recruiting women candidates to run for Congress, one of the first questions is, have you played softball?

SEN. KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND (D-NY): And Shelley Moore Capito and I have been friends, certainly because of softball. And so we work really well together on the Senate floor. I love it too, because I get to meet House members, both Dems and Republicans.

We get a lot of things done on a bicameral basis. It really helps us as legislators. But more than that, we've become friends.

SEN. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO (R-WV): But I think it's a good night. We see the gathering crowds. There's more and more people. There's more families. It's a realization that we all play together against the press, but also that we're fighting for something bigger than all the rest of us. And that's obviously young survivors of cancer.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KEILAR: And there is a very special appearance, there you see, by our very own Sara Sidner, who just returned to work after a double mastectomy, chemotherapy and radiation treatments. She's actually going to be throwing out the first pitch. We are so excited that she's going to be at the game.

SANCHEZ: That's amazing. I was actually chatting with her earlier, and she said that she was a little bit nervous she might mess it up. And I'm like, there's no way you're going to mess this up.

[16:00:00] KEILAR: I said as much to her, because I said, listen, we're very enthusiastic about this softball, but it's not the best softball. It's more about the cause. And what's really the best is the camaraderie, the trash talk.

SANCHEZ: And the camaraderie comes first, but there's competition. It gets kind of heated out there.

KEILAR: Kind of hilariously intense. And there is, like I said, a lot of trash talk. I don't know. I think the bad news babes might win again. We'll see.

SANCHEZ: See some good form out there. Look forward to hearing about the results.

"THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right now. Go press.