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Massive Russia and U.S. Prisoner Swap Underway; Whelan and Gershkovich to Be Released from Russia. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired August 01, 2024 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Suffer along side them. We speak with the families. We know how difficult it is to not only know that their loved ones are in these prisons, but not knowing when they're going to come home. And then, in the case of Evan Gershkovich, for example, get smacked with the news that he's been sentenced to 16 years in a Russian prison on these - on these - on these espionage charges that everyone believes, whether it's U.S. officials or his employer, "The Wall Street Journal," rights groups are completely trumped up simply for doing his job.

Gershkovich was doing a fantastic job as a young American reporter in Russia. And as these prisoners have come out in the past, whether it's Trevor Reed or Brittney Griner, they have told CNN and other outlets about the incredibly arduous journey of being in the Russian penal system, of the uncertainty of the treatment, and not knowing what was going to eventually happen.

But I can tell you guys that in speaking with U.S. officials, there are furious negotiations that happened behind the scenes. In this case, a lot of it was - in this case of what's happening today, we believe that a lot of it was carried out between the intelligence communities, so that would be the CIA director, Bill Burns, who used to be based in Russia as a diplomat, engaging with the FSB on the Russian side. But it's also been taking place at a political level.

I reported several months ago that Alexei Navalny, the most famous Russian opposition leader, was expected to be part of a trade that could have included Paul Whelan and Evan Gershkovich, as well as Vadim Krasikov, the FSB killer. And that fell apart after Navalny was killed. So, this is an extremely delicate, extremely complicated months, if not years long process to get all these puzzle pieces into place. Multiple prisoners, multiple countries at the intelligence level. And then finally getting the sign-off at the political level. So, we're talking about Chancellor Scholz in Germany, President Biden, and President Putin, as well as the leaders of the other countries that may be involved.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN ANCHOR: And, Alex, really appreciate the reporting.

Stay with us because we've got a team of reporters right now following this breaking news situation as we continue to try and get details. Again, as we understand at this point, the latest that we have is that

the parties have agreed to a prisoner transfer and that prisoners are expected to soon be in U.S. custody. That's according to a senior administration official.

I want to bring in CNN national security correspondent Kylie Atwood, who joins us now.

So, Kylie, look, we don't have the complete list of who may or may not be involved here, but there are certainly a number of Americans that - that had been at the center of major efforts to try and get them either released or released through a type of prisoner swap like what we may be seeing here soon.

What are you hearing on your end? Is there any movement at the State Department?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Well, listen, when you talk about the Americans who have been wrongfully detained in Russia, one of them, of course, who we've been talking a lot about is Evan Gershkovich, that "Wall Street Journal" reporter that you and Alex were just discussing.

And significantly, when you look at the news that has come out over the course of recent months, Evan Gershkovich was earlier in July sentenced to 16 years in prison. But noteworthy that his trial actually appeared to go quite quickly for the Russian system. Typically, trials like that, for someone who is charged with espionage, like Evan was by Russian authorities, even though, of course, "The Wall Street Journal" say he was there, of course, reporting for them and his family has denied those accusations, those trials typically take a long time.

So, when there was that sentence quite swiftly, Omar, it was signal to those of us who have been covering these cases of these Americans wrongfully detained in Russia for years now, that maybe there was something moving here.

Now, what we don't know at this moment in time is who exactly, in terms of Americans, is included in this prisoner swap that is currently underway. That's what we're waiting to learn.

But Evan Gershkovich, of course, is one that we have been talking about for a while now since he was wrongfully detained in Russia while he was doing his job as a reporter in March of 2023.

And then, of course, we have Paul Whelan, who has been wrongfully detained in Russia for more than five years now, Omar. And he - the sad thing for his family really has been that there have been multiple instances of other Americans who have been wrongfully detained and involved in past prisoner swaps over the years. And Paul Whelan has been left behind. That has been tremendously challenging for his family.

He is serving there. He has called our colleague, Jennifer Hansler, multiple times from the penal colony where he is to talk about his emotions and how challenging it has been for him to effectively ride this wave of emotions.

[08:35:08]

Sometimes he feels like the U.S. Government is working on his behalf. Sometimes he felt like they weren't doing enough and was pleading with them to do more.

Now, when it comes to what the State Department has said about the status of these ongoing efforts recently, they haven't said much. And so it was late last year that the secretary of state, Antony Blinken, called on Russia to accept a deal that the United States had put on the table for them. As far as we knew, Russia had rejected the proposal that the U.S. put on the table for them. That was after Brittney Griner was released from Russia last year.

But since then, and it's now been, you know, eight months, we haven't gotten a substantive update from U.S. officials in terms of what the back-and-forth between U.S. and Russia has looked like. One of the factors that we know has been ongoing going here is that the United States didn't really have many Russians in their custody who Russia actually wanted in terms of a prisoner swap just between the U.S. and Russia. And that's why we've reported on this global scramble that U.S. officials have been involved in to try and find countries who have Russians in their custody, you know, charged with things like spying and the like, who Russia actually wants, who they could use to offer in some sort of a prisoner swap that we're expecting is playing out today, in the coming hours potentially, to be used to actually secure the release of those wrongfully detained Americans.

And, of course, the complicating factor, Omar, is that the Ukraine war continues to rage on. And so there is tension between the U.S. and Russia, and that's an understatement, but there haven't been typical diplomatic dialogue between the two. So, it has really been the CIA who has been leading these efforts of dialogue to try and get to some sort of an agreement.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Kylie, stand by. I know you're going to continue working your sources.

Let me get back over to Alex Marquardt.

There's more breaking news, more detailed coming in.

Alex, what are you learning?

MARQUARDT: Yes, Kate. What we can report, according to a senior administration official, that among those being released by Russia today are Paul Whelan and Evan Gershkovich. They are being released by Russia. They are going to be on their way home. If not already, then in short order.

This is such wonderful news. These are the biggest names of those who are expected to be part of this exchange. It has been such a battle to try to get these two men released from Russian custody. Paul Whelan arrested first in 2018 and held for the past six years, convicted on espionage charges back in 2020. Evan Gershkovich simply doing his job as an American reporter in Russia, arrested last March, very quickly accused of espionage and then finally convicted last month, in July, of - on those charges and sentenced to 16 years in a penal colony.

Now, that sentence last month came really as - not as a shock, but certainly a realization that it could be a long journey before getting him home. But at the same time, we knew that the Russians would have to convict him before they could start talking about releasing him in exchange for other Russians.

So, this is tremendous news from the Biden administration, confirming that Paul Whelan and Evan Gershkovich will be part of this exchange. We are awaiting more details, others who may be released, not just from the Russian side and the U.S., but also from Germany and other countries as well.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: This is just - just huge, plain and simply, that these two men, Evan Gershkovich, just doing his job, detained, his life - and you have no idea what is going - what was - your future and fate is when you - when this happens.

Paul Whelan, who has been sitting in this penal colony, trying to get released. His family fighting to get him released since he was first arrested in 2018. The fact that they are now part - we have confirmed from your great reporting, Alex, that they are going - they are part of this exchange and released, and they will be heading home, just a huge moment, Omar.

JIMENEZ: And it was just last month that - when Paul Whelan spoke to our Jenny Hansler, he described what it really felt to be in this situation for so long. To quote him, he said, "when you think of 2,000 days," which is around what it was at that point, "how long that actually is, how many years, how many months. It's an incredible number."

So today, an incredible moment that has been a long time, years coming in some cases.

I want to bring in CNN chief global affairs correspondent Matthew Chance, who's with us now.

You know, Matthew, you've been - you've been following so many different aspects of this, including previous prisoner exchanges as well.

[08:40:05]

What are you hearing across Europe, but even on the Russian side as well?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Russians are being tight lipped. But to your point, yes, I mean, I've been in Russia, you know, for the past several years, watching in horror as people like Paul Whelan were detained, accused of espionage, sentenced to 16 years in prison. The same then happened, of course, to Evan Gershkovich, "The Wall Street Journal" reporter and, you know, countless other sort of Russians or people associated with the west who have been detained for just doing their jobs or for criticizing the Russian authorities.

It seems like a deal has been reached that will see a large proportion of, if not all, and it's not all, of those people who have suffered in this crackdown and been detained in this crackdown, are going to be set free. Evan Gershkovich, of course, and Paul Whelan, the most high- profile among them, but others as well.

We're looking at a deal which, I mean these numbers aren't - aren't confirmed yet, but possibly 16 people sort of leaving Russian custody, eight going back in to Russia, being released by the United States and - and other countries.

Now, I think one of the issues, which is the sort of elephant in the room, is the moral issue. The issue of the fact that, you know, the people who are being released by Russia are people like Evan, journalists who are just doing their job, you know, Paul Whelan, wrongly accused of espionage, something that's been denied by him and, of course, the U.S. authorities, in exchange for those people. We're seeing individuals released from U.S. jails and others who are serious, you know, committed serious acts. You know, criminal acts.

Vadim Krasikov is this FSB colonel who was convicted in Germany of murdering someone in broad daylight, a Chechen dissident in a Berlin park. He's going to be going back. There are others who have been accused or even convicted of espionage in various places in the west as well. There'll be sent back. And other individuals, Russian citizens who are serving sentences for cybercrimes. One individual, you know, believed to be part of this mix, although that name has not been confirmed yet, who is linked with, you know, a multi-million dollar, you know, kind of financial fraud involving, you know, kind of, you know, kind of bitcoin and stuff like that.

And so we're not talking about a trade of like-for-like. We're not talking about, you know, pro-democracy activists. Well, we are talking about pro-democracy activists, basically, and journalists, in exchange for, you know, kind of serious criminals.

JIMENEZ: And that, of course, was a major dynamic when - in the Brittney Griner prison release with Viktor Bout, a Russian arms dealer and, of course, questions over the ethics of having someone like that out on the street in exchange for Brittney Griner. So, we'll continue to monitor to see what details and people are actually involved in this particular instance (ph) as well.

BOLDUAN: So many details to learn. The huge question lingering over this, why now? Why and why now? But much more to come. Just the breaking news, as you see on the bottom of your screen first, Americans Paul Whelan and Evan Gershkovich are part of this what is being described as a large scale prisoner exchange and release coming from Russia. Germany involved. We believe Germany, Russia, the United States, and possibly more countries involved.

I saw Kayla Tausche at the White House standing by for us on your screen there. Let's get over to Kayla.

Kayla, this is a huge moment for the country and for the White House and this administration. What are you hearing from there?

KAYLA TAUSCHE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, you were just mentioning that December 22 exchange of Brittney Griner for the Soviet arms dealer known as the merchant of death. It was in the immediate aftermath of that exchange that the Biden administration came under immense scrutiny from the family of Paul Whelan, who in at least one iteration of the proposal had been included by the United States. They had sought his release alongside Griner's. But as we know, he was not included in that. President Biden took multiple meetings with the Whelan family, in many cases at their request, and then the detention of Evan Gershkovich a few months after that shortly followed.

The president began pounding the table, a drumbeat of negotiations, ramped up yet again in the wake of that, as the administration sought to secure the release of both men. But when there were proposals that were put forward by the Biden administration for several months, they were met with radio silence from the Russians according to sources that CNN spoke to at the time.

But President Biden, in recent months, has made it very clear that the release of those Americans wrongfully detained overseas remains a high priority.

[08:45:06]

Perhaps his top priority, especially now as he cements his legacy as a one-term president.

He put out a statement after the July 19th sentencing of Gershkovich to 16 years in prison after that very truncated three-day trial that Gershkovich went through in Russia, as Kylie just noted, saying again that journalism is not a crime and that his administration will do everything possible to bring him and others held overseas home.

And yesterday, speaking from the podium in the White House Briefing Room, NSC Spokesman John Kirby received a few questions from reporters about whether a multi-country prisoner swap was potentially in the offing, whether that would be something that we could see in short order. And Kirby said at the time just yesterday that all he could say was that the administration continues that work diligently, which has happened behind the scenes for the better part of two years concerning those particular individuals and that they hope to be able to deliver them as soon as possible.

Kate and Omar.

BOLDUAN: Kayla, thank you so much.

We have all of our finest and best working their sources right now to learn more about what is actually underway as we speak is what we're told.

We're going to get in a quick break. The breaking news, the United States and Russia carrying out a massive

prisoner swap and exchange, expected to include Evan Gershkovich and Paul Whelan. Much more of our reporting and on this breaking news after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:50:39]

The breaking news that is still coming in right now, a massive prisoner exchange is underway between the United States and Russia. We're also told it involves several countries. Sources telling our correspondents that the swap is expected to include Americans Paul Whelan and Evan Gershkovich. A lot not known. It is underway right now. How soon the Americans will be in U.S. -

back in U.S. custody, on U.S. soil, that is not known. The details of who they are being exchanged for, who is heading back into Russia, that is not quite known.

And why this is happening now, how long this has all been in the works, also, so many questions since to be answered. We will learn more as the minutes and hours continue. Our correspondents are working their sources.

I want to get back to Matthew Chance, who's in London for us.

And I started - I was thinking just in the commercial break, Matthew, of the - just the last time you were in Russia trying to attend and trying to be in the courtroom to get a glimpse of Evan Gershkovich and everything that went down involving that.

CHANCE: Yes. I mean I've always struggled with that sort of setup in Russian courts, where they allow you to go in for a few minutes before the trial starts. And you're made to stand there in front of the accused, in this case Evan Gershkovich, and not interact with them in any way. And, of course, they're standing in a sort of goldfish bowl type glass cage.

And it's very difficult, you know? And so when I went in, I sort of said hello and I asked him if he was OK. And that, you know, meant I got kicked out. But I just thought it was the right thing to do.

And I think, you know, me and many of my colleagues are very glad to see that Evan Gershkovich - or to hear that Evan Gershkovich is part of this - of this prisoner deal. But - but, you know, look, I mean, as I said earlier, this has been a - an ethical dilemma. It is not a like for like swap. People like Evan Gershkovich are being - and Paul Whelan are being swapped for, you know, in some ways very hardened sort of criminal figures that have been held in the United States, and others as well, but obviously that's a trade-off that the White House, after many months of negotiations, felt was the right one morally to make. And I think we'll probably - there's not - there's not many people hear, any of us here, who - who would - who would think otherwise.

BOLDUAN: Yes. JIMENEZ: And I want to expand the conversation here as well because, look, at the center of this, as we've talked about, there are - these are - these are individuals. These are people that have gone through individual struggles as far as some of the Americans that are - that are being switched out here. But others, we don't know who all is involved in this particular swap.

BOLDUAN: Right.

JIMENEZ: But also, from a diplomatic sense of things, these are potential successful negotiations between two countries that at the very least have been viewed as adversarial in recent times.

CNN international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson joins us now.

So, Nic, I just want to jump off of that point because what does this mean for U.S. and Russia relations moving forward?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: It certainly signals that the back channels have been working to a degree, that they have been proven that communications can be exchanged at a level of trust that has been built up. And it appears it's not just U.S. and Russia here. It's quite possibly broader than that.

I was speaking to a friend of one of the journalists who's being held in Russia at the moment, and we don't know if that person is part of this package or not. But this person told me, well look what happened in Belarus just a couple of days ago. The president there released a German who was an NGO, a humanitarian worker, who was being held there. Of course, we didn't know the significance of that at the time, but now you can begin to build that into the picture that, you know, President Putin's close ally, Lukashenko, the president of Belarus, has released a German. And we understand that there are many national - different nationalities that could be involved in this - in this huge and historic prisoner exchange.

So, the implications are that the diplomacy here has been working behind the scenes, that it's more than just the U.S. and Russia.

[08:55:07]

And, of course, the obvious question that comes out from that when there's all this pressure that's potentially going to be applied to Ukraine in the future and the talk about a ceasefire in Ukraine is, can some of that diplomacy translate into - into the footsteps of getting Russia towards the negotiating table where the vast number of countries - and you think of the more than 100 different countries who are represented at the Ukraine peace talks in Switzerland just a month or so ago, where the overwhelming agreement was that peace in Ukraine needs to be more on Ukraine's terms than Russia's terms. Does Russia inch itself towards that process? I think it's way too early to say, but it does seem to indicate that - successful and trusted conversations are happening behind the scenes.

Let's see which other countries are involved. But this is, for that reason alone, significant, but cannot be judged on what we see today. This will take months, I think, to see the potential implications play out.

BOLDUAN: Yes, that's a great point. It - there's the immediate relief release and questions surrounding the immediate impact and the long- term impact for absolutely sure.

Nic, stick with me.

And on that question, let's get over to David Sanger with more on this.

What could this mean, David, for - for Vladimir Putin?

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, it's a fascinating question, Kate. First of all, I think we all have to be very cautious. We haven't seen any planes land yet. We haven't seen anybody turned over. We all know these things can, unfortunately, you know, go bad. So, we want to be really careful about what we know and what we don't know.

But if the overall indication from Putin is that he is ready for a big swap and that we're hoping one is underway. Then the question is, is he ready to go move on to what would be the next big swap, which would be a way out on Ukraine. They're very different dynamics and very different problems. And of course, President Biden's view has been that only the Ukrainians can make the decision about whether they're willing to give up some Ukrainian territory for peace.

But this certainly is the first time since the war broke out in February 2022 where there's been any sign of a constructive conversation with the Russians. Hasn't happened on arms control. Certainly hasn't happened on Ukraine. Hasn't happened in a range of other areas.

And while prisoner swaps happened during the Cold War at various moments without many broader effects. The hope here is that this could be the beginning of a thaw.

BOLDUAN: That's extremely - that's a really interesting perspective of kind of the impact this is - the first time that you're seeing maybe the beginning of a thaw, but still all of the caution and caveats.

David, just what is your reaction of the timing on the why now, David, which is an impossible question to have a full answer for in this moment that we're seeing this exchange?

SANGER: It really is impossible to know why. Certainly we saw that, you know, Evan's conviction happened a few weeks ago. And if, in fact, he is part of this, and if this comes off as one would hope it would, it may be that the Russians felt they had to get through the legal process.

But from all the sounds of it, this is a much bigger swap than that. And so this is a calculus on Putin's part about when he was ready. The U.S. was pretty much ready as well.

Also a question of how big the deal is. Putin's been interested in Russians held in countries other than the United States, including in Germany. We don't know anything right now about whether or not this could embrace those as well.

But Putin may - may have decided that he's been pushing his luck here. Hard to imagine, just given the fact that he's making some incremental gains on the battlefield, and he's got this new relationship with China, really hard to crawl inside Vladimir Putin's mind.

BOLDUAN: To say the least.

David, stick with us. Thank you so much.

A new hour of CNN NEWS CENTRAL starts right now.

[08:59:59]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BOLDUAN: And we are following this major breaking news.