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Supermoon On Dazzling Display Through Friday Morning; Harris Spars With Fox News Anchor In Contentious Interview; Willis Seeks To Reinstate Election Subversion Charges Against Trump. Aired 7:30-8a ET
Aired October 17, 2024 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[07:30:00]
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Not you, Hakeem. Just so know, we're all pointing at John, didn't you, Sara. So sorry.
SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Kristin --
HAKEEM OLUSEYI, ASTROPHYSICIST: That's what I was thinking. I was wondering.
SIDNER: OK. Of course, it wasn't -- it wasn't you at all.
This is a big moment --
OLUSEYI: All right.
SIDNER: -- a historic moment. What does it mean for other astronomical events because you just heard about a lot of them that we have seen?
KRISTIN FISHER, CNN SPACE AND DEFENSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. You know, when the big solar eclipse --
OLUSEYI: Yeah. You know, astronomers typically loathe a full moon -- oh. I'm sorry.
SIDNER: The question for was Kristin --
FISHER: You go ahead, Hakeem.
SIDNER: -- but you can jump in.
OLUSEYI: No, go Kristin.
FISHER: Well, I was actually just going to say that during the big solar eclipse back in April I was talking to Hakeem and one of the things that we talked about was what makes these events -- these big celestial events -- so cool is the fact that not only does it unite everybody on Planet Earth but it also kind of unites us back with our ancestors and how all of humanity for hundreds of thousands --
OLUSEYI: Um-hum.
FISHER: -- of years have done things and felt when they looked up at the sky.
And so you heard Derek Van Dam talking about this being the Hunter's moon, right? Like, the moon that was so bright at this time of year that reminded people they need to go out and hunt and use this light to stock up for the winter.
I mean, these are things that Hakeem and I probably don't think about too much now that we live in the city, but it's something that really connects us to our ancestors in a way that few other things do.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: You know, Professor, it's not just lighting up the sky. Maybe if you believe in some of the myths and the lore surrounding it, you know, because there have been -- it can induce labor. There has been some evidence they cause baby booms nine months and some down the lines.
From a scientific perspective what do you make of all that?
OLUSEYI: That's news to me but --
BERMAN: That's what I'm here for, Professor.
OLUSEYI: -- there are -- but listen, biology does indeed respond to astronomical stimulus, right? So we have daily cycles, weekly cycles, which are the times between the major phases of the moon -- new to quarter to full to quarter. And, you know, there are -- there are annual cycles, right?
And so, you know, our -- we're a part of the same system. We're all a part of the same universe. And those lights in the sky meant so much to our ancestors because they saw them there every night. But if you look throughout the animal kingdom, they are part of our biology as well.
So can they have the effects that you just named? I'm not aware of those. I'd have to take to the -- to the search browse -- open a browser and search. But the fact that there is a connection is -- you know, that's well established.
BOLDUAN: One thing -- some -- I mean, not in this image that we have up in one of these live shots but sometimes these supermoons come across. In that one you see it a little bit more, Kristin. They come across like --
SIDNER: Yeah.
BOLDUAN: -- a different color. More orange or yellow --
FISHER: Um-hum.
BOLDUAN: -- or -- is -- what is -- what is the reason of -- for this?
FISHER: Yeah. Well, and that's also why you get the name like the blood moon and whatnot. And a lot of it depends on where it is on the horizon, and that's why they say the best time to see this moon is at -- you know, right before sunset or sunrise. And so right now this is the perfect time. It's at its absolute most full. And so as you're going into work, getting the kids out, getting them to school, this is a time to just remember to look up.
SIDNER: That's fantastic. John and Kate, I'm leaving to go see the supermoon, so --
BERMAN: Right, run.
SIDNER: -- goodbye.
BERMAN: Don't walk. It's still there. I mean, this is -- does it do anything else besides this?
FISHER: That's it.
BERMAN: That's it? No, it is -- it is truly --
SIDNER: Beautiful.
BERMAN: I'm just asking. It is truly, truly beautiful. And this is the biggest one of the year, Professor?
OLUSEYI: That's correct, yeah. We have another one coming on November 5. But this is the closest approach.
And these things tend to come in clusters. They come in -- you know, since 2020, we've had four a year. Typically, you may have fewer. But the sky has been good to us. We're living in this great age of naked eye astronomy and I'm loving it.
SIDNER: I feel like we should be singing Kumbaya. This might be the one moment before the election that we all get to come together and be happy for a moment. This is something beautiful.
BOLDUAN: Everything else is a mess but astronomically it's awesome.
SIDNER: It's great.
Kristin Fisher, Hakeem Oluseyi -- look it -- love, laughter. I mean, you don't get this everywhere but CNN NEWS CENTRAL, OK? I'm just saying.
BERMAN: The moon did it.
FISHER: (Making heart sign).
SIDNER: Thank you so much. Good one, Kristin. Thank you both so much. Appreciate it.
FISHER: See you, guys.
SIDNER: And now back to the news.
With just 19 days to the election Kamala Harris is making a grab for undecided Republican voters by sitting down with Fox News in an interview that can only be described as contentious, testy, heated. Take a look for yourself.
[07:35:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: How many illegal immigrants would you estimate your administration has released into the country over the last 3 1/2 years?
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I'm glad you raised the issue of immigration because I agree with you. It is a -- it is a topic of discussion that people want to rightly have. And you know what I'm going to talk about, which is --
BAIER: Yeah, but do -- just a number.
HARRIS: But --
BAIER: Do you think it's one million, three million?
HARRIS: Bret, let's just get to the point.
BAIER: So your Homeland Security secretary said that 85 percent of apprehensions --
HARRIS: Well, I'm not -- but I'm not finished. I'm not finished. We have a -- we have an immigration system that needs to be --
BAIER: It's a rough estimate of six million people have been released into the country. And let me just finish and I'll get to the question, I promise you.
HARRIS: I was beginning to answer.
BAIER: And when you --
HARRIS: Can I please finish? May I please finish --
BAIER: Yes, ma'am.
HARRIS: May I finish -- may I finish responding, please?
BAIER: But here --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: CNN's Brian Stelter joins me now. The issue, Brian, of immigration the first question out of the box. If there are Fox viewers who can be swayed what do you think that they think of Harris now?
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST, AUTHOR, "NETWORK OF LIES" (via Webex by Cisco): And I think there might be a few who can be swayed. The Fox audience is hearing every day hour by hour how bad the Democrats are. But Harris showed she's willing to go anywhere and take questions.
The coverage afterward on Fox was overwhelmingly negative, saying Kamala Harris imploded. Saying she was angry and agitated and avoiding responsibility. But the Harris campaign believes this was a win for the vice president because she showed toughness and a willingness to go anywhere.
It was striking how much Bret Baier focused on immigration. After all, Fox's own polling shows that the economy is the top issue in this election, immigration number two, abortion number three. Baier never asked about abortion and barely asked about the economy. But on Fox and for Fox immigration is story number one every day. So that's why he focused on immigration.
SIDNER: I'm curious what you saw as Harris' strategy in this interview. I noticed she brought up Donald Trump a lot and some of the things that he says. Some of the negativity that he spews.
What do -- what do you make of this strategy that she is using, and is it different from what we've seen before?
STELTER: I call it a Google strategy. She was going onto Fox saying things that Fox viewers don't usually hear and kind of encouraging them to Google it and look it up for themselves. She even read the URL for her campaign website at the end of the interview, something that she doesn't usually do, because she was trying to get Fox viewers to check her out.
I mean, listen to this clip. Here's a clip where Harris -- where Baier tries to -- tries to bait Harris and say why do Trump voters love Trump? Are they stupid? And listen to how Harris responded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: It is not supposed to be a cake walk for anyone.
BAIER: Are they misguided, the 50 percent?
HARRIS: Listen, I --
BAIER: Are they stupid? What is it?
HARRIS: Oh God, I would never say that about the American people. And, in fact, if you listen to Donald Trump -- if you watched any of his rallies, he's the one who tends to demean, and belittle, and diminish the American people.
He is the one who talks about an enemy within the -- within. An enemy within, talking about the American people. Suggesting he would turn the American military on the American people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STELTER: So it's clear what she's doing there. She's saying, first of all, no, I'm not going to insult American voters. That's what my opponent does. And then number two, she tries to bring up talking points that are rarely heard in right-wing media, Sara.
SIDNER: You mentioned this yourself -- the economy, abortion, reproductive rights didn't come up. Why do you think that is?
STELTER: I think it's -- you know, just to state the obvious it's because it's a winning issue for Harris, it's a losing issue for Trump, and Bret Baier was acting a little bit like a Trump surrogate. He is an accomplished journalist with decades of experience, but he knew going into that interview that the Fox viewers wanted to see Harris roasted. He basically had to act as a stand-in for the Trump campaign because that's what his audience wanted. That's the way I see it.
SIDNER: Now we've got Trump's town hall where he revisited the topic of --
STELTER: Yeah.
SIDNER: -- migrants eating pets because he was asked by one of the potential Latino American voters why he is still talking about trying to kick out Haitian migrants over this issue.
I know you saw what I saw. There were a lot of faces being made at this point. Describe what happened there.
STELTER: Yeah, that is so striking that it really -- the faces at the town hall say it all. Let's show that part where you can see people reacting to Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I was just saying what was reported. That's been reported. And eating other things, too, that they're not supposed to be. But this is -- all I do is report. I have not -- I was there. I'm going to be there and we're going to take a look, and I'll give you a full report when I do. But that's been in the newspapers and reported pretty broadly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STELTER: When I heard this my first thought was sympathy for Springfield, Ohio. Here we go again. They're back in the news in the worst way possible with a racist lie being spread about the town.
[07:40:05]
And Sara, I think we should (INAUDIBLE) this is a racist dog whistle. Don't take it from me.
The Washington Post, last month, interviewed historians and wrote the following. The promotion of such rumors which thrust Springfield into the national spotlight is "rooted in a centuries old racist trope of vilifying newcomers to the U.S. and highlights the country's present day divides."
Historians know what Trump is doing when he talks about migrants eating pets. And sadly, I think now we're going to see even more negative attention thrust onto Springfield, Ohio.
SIDNER: Yeah. And to be fair, the person who asked the question -- a potential voter -- said to him you know, local authorities have debunked this lie over and over again. Why are you still using this?
STELTER: Yeah.
SIDNER: It was interesting to see.
STELTER: Yeah.
SIDNER: It was a very sincere question. It wasn't combative at all. And then he got the answer that he got.
Brian Stelter, it is always a joy to have you and a joy to read the newsletter, "Reliable Sources."
STELTER: Good to see you.
SIDNER: Appreciate it -- John.
STELTER: Thanks.
BERMAN: All right. With us now, Democratic strategist Julie Roginsky, and Marc Lotter, former strategic communications director for the Trump 2020 campaign.
Julie, I want to start with you because you spent 10 years going on Fox --
JULIE ROGINSKY, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Yeah.
BERMAN: -- a lot. And I don't want to ask it from a media perspective. That's "Reliable Sources" purview there and thank God we have Brian for that. But from a political standpoint the idea of Harris going on Fox, what do you think she got out of it?
ROGINSKY: I'm not so sure that she got anything out of it. I understand the purpose, which was to show that she could go into the lion's den and talk to people who may be curious but not obviously hearing information from Fox that she wants them to hear. If you're watching Fox at this point, I don't know that you're curious about anything other than you want to get out and vote for Donald Trump.
And look, Brian was right to a point, and this is a political thing that Harris needed to understand. The tail wags the dog at Fox News. And I was at Fox from 2004 all the way through Trump's election and I can tell you I saw what happened over there, which is that the audience became the person in charge. Roger Ailes left and then nobody replaced him other than the audience. And the audience was baying (PH) for her blood and Bret Baier gave them exactly what they wanted.
That wasn't helpful to her I don't think. She obviously showed that she could go toe-to-toe with him. He was obviously a Trump surrogate, and she understood that she was debating him in place of Donald Trump. But I don't know if there's one undecided voter there who looked at that and said, you know what, I'm going to vote for Kamala Harris now.
BERMAN: Maybe not there but what about today when it's being replayed across the country and when it's in the headlines saying that she went toe-to-toe with him. And she's not going to get another debate.
ROGINSKY: Yeah.
BERMAN: And The New York Times made the point here that in some ways this was the second debate because Bret was just literally running Trump campaign ads.
ROGINSKY: I mean, this is a turnout election, and she needs to turn out her vote and Trump needs to turn out his vote. And I don't know that going on Fox helped her turn out her vote. There's probably a better allocation of time that she could have spent.
Because again, all she did was parry crazy talking points, literally respond to Trump ads, and feed the beast, which is what Trump does and what -- and that's exactly what Fox does, right? Fox takes the craziest things that Trump says and sane-washes them on a daily basis. And then they try to sane wash that with her.
Is that the best use of her time? I personally don't think so. I think she probably would have had better time spent in Pennsylvania yesterday going door-to-door in Bucks County where she was in Washington's Crossing than actually having to deal with that.
BERMAN: So, Marc, it was interesting because I was watching the interview while I was also on the Elon Musk-owned X. And on social media it was almost as if the Trump campaign had told every conservative surrogate out there you need to be live tweeting how badly you think she's doing during this. Like, why do -- I mean, she had said, like, two words -- like, hey, good day, Bret, and there were conservatives out there saying this is the worst interview I've ever seen.
Why do you think it was so important to the Trump campaign to try to paint this a negative on her?
MARC LOTTER, FORMER STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, TRUMP 2020 CAMPAIGN, CHIEF COMMUNICATIONS OFFICER, AMERICA FIRST POLICY INSTITUTE: Well, I think that's what campaigns do. And I'm sure that Kamala's campaign was doing the same thing during the Univision town hall last night.
And so, you mean -- with social media more people are probably getting their news off of social media these days than watching the event live, and so that's where that narrative gets baked in.
But I will agree with Julie. I don't think she got much out of it because if you were that undecided voter -- you know, when Bret asked about the economy or immigration the answer wasn't here's what we could have done better, what we would have done wrong. It was it's all Trump's fault. And when she was asked well, what would you do differently -- well, it's Trump's fault and I'm not Biden. BERMAN: Um, overnight, the AP and also ABC News published excerpts from a new book by Michael Tackett, "The Price of Power." This is about Mitch McConnell. And it's got some pretty interesting quotes in there. Here is just one of them and we're going to have more later in the broadcast.
"Mitch McConnell said after the 2020 election that then-President Donald Trump was 'stupid as well as being ill-tempered,' a 'despicable human being' and a 'narcissist.'" That's according to excerpts from the new biography that will be released next month.
[07:45:05]
Marc, again, we're less than three weeks before the election. These quotes coming from the Republican leader of the Senate about the Republican candidate.
Your view?
LOTTER: Uh, nothing new. They've been doing -- you know, the RINOs -- the old school Republicans have been doing this since 2016. And what they've shown themselves being is being soon out of office thereafter and Donald Trump being re-elected.
So I don't think anybody sitting out there is going to go oh, Mitch McConnell doesn't like Donald Trump so I'm going to vote for Kamala Harris. I just don't think it works that way.
BERMAN: It is interesting because this -- Julie, this comes on the heels of Harris -- the Harris campaign really working hard to point that she does have Republican support. Before the Bret Baier interview, she did an event with some 100 Republicans in Bucks County, as you were saying right there.
What the ceiling for them focusing on their Republican support pointing out something like this? If they put this in a commercial what's the ceiling for how much they can get out of it?
ROGINSKY: Well look, there are a bunch of people who voted for Nikki Haley in Pennsylvania after she got off the ballot, right? There was a tremendous number of people who continued to support a Republican candidate other than Trump even when there was no other Republican candidate than Trump on the ballot.
And so those are the people that she's going after, understandably so, in places like Bucks, which is an incredibly swing county. In the collar counties of Philadelphia, which go back and forth. And Northampton County and Monroe County up in the Poconos.
And so from that perspective something like this helps. But I will say Mitch McConnell -- I don't know that Mitch McConnell himself moves the needle for anybody. Mitch McConnell endorsed --
BERMAN: Yep. ROGINSKY: -- Donald Trump despite the fact that Donald Trump went after Mitch McConnell's wife in the most racist terms -- kind of like Ted Cruz, right? These guys all bend the knee to Trump even when Trump gets incredibly personal about their wives, about their families.
And so to me, it's nice that Mitch McConnell privately says this. But if Mitch McConnell, who is going to not run for re-election, I assume, if he's stepping down as leader towards the end of his career -- he could the right thing now and say I was wrong. This man is not fit to serve.
But he hasn't done that because Mitch McConnell has consistently put party over country in ways that I think are really detrimental to his own party. Because somebody is going to have to clean this mess up if Trump loses, and it's not going to be somebody like Mitch McConnell, though it should be.
BERMAN: Very quickly, Marc. Donald Trump -- one of the things that Donald Trump said about the Kamala Harris interview last night on Fox was he questioned her cognitive ability. And that only made me wonder whether all the work that she has done, and the Harris campaign has done the last few days going after his age, his "weakness and instability" -- their words there -- is getting under his skin. It really does seem as if it has bothered him some.
Do you see any different degree than before?
LOTTER: No. I think that's more of the shift in strategy by Kamala Harris to just -- she can't be for joy and vibes -- it's not working -- so she's going to be anti-Trump. And if you're Trump, you're basically reinforcing with your base about how unqualified she is and that fires them up. As Julie said, it's a get out the vote effort now for the next three weeks.
BERMAN: All right, Julie Roginsky, Marc Lotter. Thanks to both of you. Very nice to see you this morning -- Kate.
LOTTER: Thank you.
BOLDUAN: So the U.S. government is now using artificial intelligence to fight financial crimes. How it has helped recover $1 billion in check fraud this year alone.
And the three charges Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis is asking an appeals court to restore against Donald Trump in the Georgia election subversion case.
(COMMERCIAL)
[07:52:57]
BOLDUAN: New this morning, the United States government has announced it has recovered $1 billion worth of check fraud by using artificial intelligence this fiscal year. That's almost triple what was recovered the last fiscal year.
CNN's Matt Egan is following this -- tracking this money. How significant -- a billion dollars is a lot. How significant is this?
MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Kate -- yeah, I'm told this has been transformative for the federal government in the fight against financial crime.
So about two years ago the Treasury quietly started using machine- learning AI to detect when people are trying to steal from taxpayers. And this secret weapon is already paying off some significant dividends.
So as you mentioned, $1 billion recovered just in fiscal 2024 alone. That's according to these new estimates shared first with CNN. As that chart shows this is nearly triple the year before. It has been a gamechanger. It's really helped kind of level the playing field against fraudsters.
And this, of course, is a massive problem, fraud, right? Juniper Research finds that $362 billion is the online payment fraud projections by 2028, and some of that actually is being turbocharged by AI itself.
The Treasury is a prime target because it's among the biggest payors on the planet, right? I mean, they're paying out every year almost $7 trillion -- everything from Social Security, Medicare, to those stimulus checks that everyone looks forward to.
BOLDUAN: Um-hum.
EGAN: So it only makes sense that they try to steal a page from the private sector because we know banks and payment companies --
BOLDUAN: Right.
EGAN: -- credit card firms -- they're all using AI to try to detect suspicious transactions.
Even the IRS, Kate, is using AI to try to find when there are people cheating on their taxes, particularly hedge funds.
BOLDUAN: So two questions that kind of go hand in hand. Do -- how are they using AI? And do they think they're just doing a better job of utilizing AI to find this fraud? I mean, triple from the year before, do they think there's just more check fraud this fiscal year?
[07:55:00]
EGAN: Yeah, there is more of it but they're better able to detect it because of AI.
Now, importantly, we are not talking about generative AI -- the kind that's used by ChatGPT and by Google's Gemini to make song lyrics and images, and all that. This is really big data machine-learning AI. Now that AI is really good at combing through oceans of data and detecting subtle patterns and anomalies that humans may never find. And they're able to do it in lightning-fast speed.
BOLDUAN: They flag it and then a human can look it up.
EGAN: And then there is a human in the loop to really say yes, this is fraudulent.
But all of this really shows how the federal government is trying to balance the risk and rewards of AI, right? Because Treasury Sec. Janet Yellen herself recently warned bankers that the use of AI in finance poses significant risks. There's a SWAT team of federal regulators led by Yellen that last year they classified artificial intelligence for the first time as an emerging vulnerability.
We know the White House is weighing what jobs are most exposed to being --
BOLDUAN: Right.
EGAN: -- replaced by AI. They're meeting with AI CEOs to figure out how to power the data centers behind AI. And yet, obviously there's just this enormous potential for good, too.
And Treasury is just getting started using AI to fight financial crime. They won't even explain to me all of the ways they're going to be using it because they don't want to tip off the bad guys.
But one interesting point here Kate is that in some cases AI can actually detect these anomalies and these fraudulent checks before they're ever cashed, right? It actually feels like something out of a Tom Cruise "Minority Report" film because it's just incredible how fast this is moving.
BOLDUAN: That one we're going to -- you're going to -- we're going to have to sit on that one. You're going to have to just explain that more to me later. But, I mean, this shows just like the huge potential for good but also exposing the huge potential for bad as well -- this balance that everyone is needing to deal with when it comes to AI. This is super interesting.
Thank you so much, Matt.
EGAN: Thanks, Kate.
BOLDUAN: John.
BERMAN: All right. New this morning, a judge just struck down multiple new election rules approved the Trump allies on Georgia's State Election Board. Democrats say the rules would have created post- election chaos. Two would require county election officials to conduct a "reasonable inquiry into election results before certifying them and examine all election-related materials." The judge says that violates Georgia state law and the Constitution.
The Catholic Archdiocese of Los Angeles has agreed to pay $880 million to victims of sexual abuse by clergy. Attorneys for the more than 1,300 victims say their clients suffered horrific abuse. In some cases, it goes back decades. The L.A. archbishop says he hopes the settlement will provide a measure of healing. The archdiocese earlier paid $740 million to settle other abuse claims.
So the FTC just unveiled its "Click to Cancel" rule requiring businesses to make it as easy to cancel a subscription as to sign up for it. An American, on average, is paying nearly $1,000 a year for subscriptions. The new rule will take effect 180 days after it appears in the federal register, which I guess mean, Sara, I won't have to pay for tattoo monthly anymore.
SIDNER: Yeah, I think that's a good idea. Go ahead and click it and get rid of it. Your wife will be happy.
All right. New this morning, with early voting in full swing in Georgia, Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis is asking an appeals court to reinstate six counts in the 2020 election subversion case against Donald Trump and his co-defendants. The judge tossed those counts out earlier this year.
CNN's Sara Murray is joining me now. Sara, tell me what happened here and what the expectation is on her part, as well as what the judge might say.
SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. I mean, this is all pretrial wrangling. A lower court judge threw six of these counts out against three related to Trump that have to do with solicitation of violation of oath by a public officer. Essentially, these are counts related to the effort to have state officials put forward the slate of fake electors.
And so, Fani Willis is trying to get these counts reinstated before this thing goes to trial. In a court filing she said, "The indictment included an abundance of context and factual allegations about the solicitations at issue, including requests that were made, to whom they were made, the manner they were made."
One of the things that the judge said when he tossed the counts was that there just wasn't an - enough information about the potential underlying crime for these counts to go forward. And Fani Willis is disputing that in her filing saying look, defendants have enough to prepare their defense in this case.
SIDNER: We've also learned -- and John just talked about this -- that in Georgia a judge struck down some very controversial new rules that were put in place when it comes to voting.
What can you tell us about why this is so significant?
MURRAY: Sara, what I think is so significant about that is just this is a board that has been behaving so outside of the norm for a state election board. It's three Republicans on the majority of the board who have just pushed forward with these rules. Bipartisan election officials have begged them not to do the things that they have been doing so close to the election. They've been warned, including by their own attorneys, that the rules they were putting forward could be illegal.
