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Biden: Death Of Hamas Leader Sinwar Is Opportunity For Gaza Peace Deal; Harris And Trump Campaign In Battleground Michigan With 18 Days To Election; Fears of Christian Nationalism Grow As Some Say Trump Chosen By God. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired October 18, 2024 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Breaking this morning, President Biden is in Berlin at this moment. He's been pushing to get a ceasefire and hostage deal in Gaza after the death of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I told the prime minister of Israel yesterday let's also make this moment an opportunity to seek a path to peace. A better future in Gaza without Hamas. And I look forward to discussing Iran.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, with us now, retired Army Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, and CNN national security analyst Peter Bergen.

I want to look forward on what this might mean. But first, General, I do want to ask very quickly how the Israeli -- the IDF ended up getting Yahya Sinwar. What does it tell us about patterns of terrorist activity?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST, FORMER COMMANDING GENERAL, U.S. ARMY EUROPE AND SEVENTH ARMY (via Webex by Cisco): Well, when you have a situation like this, John, and a terrorist leader like Yahya Sinwar, they know they are under threat continuously. Now we experienced this in Iraq and Afghanistan where we had terrorist leaders who knew they were constantly being watched. Intelligence was driving their potential location.

So you will see them moving quite frequently, maybe sleeping at two or three different places throughout a week or maybe even more. So they are moving and that puts them in a position where they pop up somewhere.

And I think in this particular situation I can see in my mind's eye Sinwar probably came up out of tunnel entrance inside this building and realized that he and his two compatriots were surrounded and didn't have much of a chance other than to fight, and that's what happened. So those are the kind of things where sometimes, as Carl Clausewitz,

the old Prussian philosopher used to say, chance plays a part in war. We call that luck but sometimes the terrorists will stumble into the bullseye, and this is what happened yesterday. And I think the Israelis were quite fortunate to find him as he popped out of a tunnel.

BERMAN: And so, Peter Gergen, Sinwar is gone. He was the leader of Hamas. You know, Hassan Nasrallah is gone, the leader of Hezbollah. These -- you could call them decapitation attacks, right? You take out the leadership of a terror movement. But Israel has some experience with this.

How has it worked out in the past?

PETER GERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST, HOST, "IN THE ROOM WITH PETER BERGEN" PODCAST: Well, not very well in the sense that Israel killed one of the leaders of Hamas early on, Sheikh Hassan. Hamas grew bigger after that fact. Israel also killed the military commander of Hezbollah in Damascus in 2008, Imad Mughniyah. Hezbollah grew stronger after that.

Obviously, the fact that a lot of Hezbollah leaders have been taken out and a lot of Hamas leaders have been taken out does make a difference. However, who's going to replace Sinwar? It could well be his brother Mohammed Sinwar who is as militant as his brother and as unlikely to be a -- sort of a good faith negotiator as his brother proved to be.

So Hamas also is not like al Qaeda. There's a lot of discussion this is like getting bin Laden. From a psychological point of view, yes, but al Qaeda was a relatively small group of a few hundred people. Hamas has 20,000 fighters. A lot of them have been killed but a lot of them haven't been killed.

So I think it's a tactical victory; it's not a strategic victory.

BERMAN: General, how can Israel use this on the ground inside Gaza, particularly in trying to get the hostages? I don't know if there's a military solution to getting the hostages freed. It may be that is political. But from a military standpoint what kind of opportunity does this provide?

HERTLING: Well first, John, what I would say is I completely agree with Peter on this. You know, having decapitated terrorist organizations in my lifetime in combat you're always high fiving each other because you've hit a main target. But the next day a car bomb will go off or a missile will explode in your area of operation. There are a lot of fighters left in Hamas even though Israel has decimated them.

What Israel could do is potentially -- you see the Palestinian people. There are reports from intelligence sources that say just like the revolution against al Qaeda in Iraq the people of Palestine have seen the terror that this can wrought among their citizens. So they have an opportunity -- Israel has an opportunity to use this

as a psychological weapon. So many of their leaders have been dead, Israel might say, so what are you going to do now to support them or to not support them anymore in the Gaza? So that becomes an opportunity if they use it correctly.

But again, I think they will have a measured approach to his. They will continue to go after fighters that will be launching rockets. And I would bet there will be some attacks coming out of Gaza in the near future to prove that they are still alive and well.

But at the same time they can use it as an opportunity to persuade the Palestinian people that you have to get rid of this organization that has been leading you. And that becomes a tipping point. We've seen that in other wars and it's possible today that Israel might use that same approach.

BERMAN: Peter, if you're Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Jordan, is today different for you in regards to how you're viewing the situation on the ground?

[07:35:00]

BERGEN: You know, I mean, what -- I think the big thing that they're waiting for is what is Israel's response to Iran? I mean, privately, they will probably hope for quite a significant response against Iran. And as you know, John, they -- the Israeli war cabinet has been debating what precisely that strike could be.

President Biden has said do not attack Iran's nuclear sites. The past record of President Biden saying things that the Israelis pay attention to I don't think has been particularly strong. But obviously that would be a huge blow and something I think the Saudis would at least privately applaud because, of course, they're very concerned about an Iranian nuclear weapon.

So I think this is -- obviously, it's a big story. But I think if you're looking from a wider strategic point of view -- from the Saudis' point of view, they're really looking at what is Israel going to do with this potential Iran strike that has been in the works now for almost three weeks.

BERMAN: General, we've got about 30 seconds left. What do you think this does mean, or what do you think Israel will do at this point with Iran? They have to be emboldened to a certain extent.

HERTLING: I think they may adjust their original target sets and that would be smart to do. Perhaps not go as harshly as they were planning to go against Iran as a retaliation for the missile strike. That would be smart.

I think they still -- I agree with Peter. I think they still will conduct an operation of some size and magnitude against the Iranian territory but hopefully it will be reduced to show hey, we know we're hitting your proxies hard. Now we're going to back off a little bit and see what Iran's reaction would be. And I think that would certainly be something that would be welcomed by the other countries in the Middle East.

BERMAN: All right, Peter Bergen, Gen. Mark Hertling. Always great to speak with both of you. Thanks so much -- Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: So what could go wrong? An election year tradition. The setting, a fancy charity dinner in New York benefiting Catholic charities. The set up is that the tradition is both presidential candidates in an election year -- they come, and they speak, poke fun, and offer friendly roasts of themselves and their opponent.

Donald Trump was there in person.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Tradition holds that I'm supposed to tell a few self-deprecating jokes this evening. So here it goes -- nope, I've got nothing.

Fortunately, Gov. Walz isn't here himself but don't worry, he'll say that he was. He's good at saying he was.

The only piece of advice I would have for her in the event that she wins would be not to let her husband Doug anywhere near the nannies. Just keep him away. That's a nasty one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Like, what nannies? They don't even have young kids.

Anyway, Kamala Harris did not attend the dinner after campaigning in Wisconsin all day, instead sending in a video as you see there with "SNL" alum Mollie Shannon.

Joining us right now, CNN political commentators Mary Cardona and Scott Jennings. Thanks for being here, guys.

OK, that was last night. Let's talk about today because the impact of the Al Smith dinner on -- in political terms is very little, though good fodder for watching sound bites.

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: It was hilarious. I mean, he delivered --

BOLDUAN: You know what, Scott? You're hilarious. Let's move on.

Michigan -- so they're both going to be -- they're both going to be in Michigan today. Harris is heading to Grand Rapids, Lansing, and Oakland County, which is a suburb of Detroit. Donald Trump is going to be in Oakland County as well. I don't think they're happening -- there is going to be a joint appearance.

This will be the first time that he's heading back to rally there since he was in Detroit and trashed Detroit.

Do you think that should be his message this time around?

JENNINGS: Oh look, I think his message ought to be that under Republican governance, whether that's at the White House level or at the U.S. Senate level where we have a big race going on in Michigan, you're going to do better. And that was his message when he was at the Detroit Economic Club before everybody said he trashed Detroit.

BOLDUAN: He did, though.

JENNINGS: And no one can deny the decades of decline in Detroit and he's asking them to try something different. He's asking them to try something --

BOLDUAN: And the -- and the fact -- I know a lot of people in Detroit and one thing they will say --

JENNINGS: Well, you don't know as many as you used to because not as many people live there anymore. But --

BOLDUAN: Oh, you can stop. There is -- Detroit is -- I will be there in a -- I will be there in a few weeks. Detroit is doing very well. Detroit is coming back. Detroit, from where it was is doing very well and people are very --

JENNINGS: OK.

BOLDUAN: -- proud.

JENNINGS: Teatopia (PH).

BOLDUAN: People are -- no, no, no, stop. No, but people are very proud of changing -- of changing the narrative and the view of Detroit.

JENNINGS: Yeah.

BOLDUAN: You know, there --

JENNINGS: And I think his message is --

BOLDUAN: They're working hard at it.

JENNINGS: -- under Republican policies you'll do better, and under Democratic policies you've gotten decline. It's a pretty simple message and that's really his message for a lot of urban areas in the country.

BOLDUAN: Maria, Kent County is where is and that's where Harris is going to start her day. So let -- it's an interesting -- John and Jeff Zeleny were talking about it earlier.

It's definitely a county to keep an eye on and it's very interesting for this very reason. It's leaned Republican -- it leaned Republican for years. Trump won the county in 2016. Biden then won the county in 2020.

[07:40:00]

When it comes to outreach in a critical place like that do you think the strategy should be turning out more Democrats or winning over more Republicans there? Yes, in a utopian -- in a utopian political strategy it's all, but if there's one --

MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Yeah.

BOLDUAN: -- you need to focus on more, which is it?

CARDONA: Well, I think the good thing about the Kamala Harris campaign in terms of its robust infrastructure is that he can do both, and she should do both, and she is doing both. Because in this -- in this area where we are now the timing -- the constricted timing of her campaign and the nature of how everything is going to be won on the margins, Kate, she must do both.

And her message is focused on exactly that because the fact of the matter is to turn out more Democratic voters, she has to make sure that she talks about what she's going to do for her term in four years. What she's going to continue to do in terms of focusing on economic growth for everyone. And also remind people the debacle that Trump was when he was there for four years.

You know, my dear friend Scott loves to talk about how everything was great under Republican rule. Well, under Republican rule with Donald Trump at the helm he

absolutely put our economy in the toilet when he refused to understand how to be the leader during a global pandemic. Refusing to accept the science of COVID. Lost millions of American jobs. Hundreds of thousands of Americans died on his watch.

Businesses were shuttered, which is why you saw cities going into decline. And the -- and the fact of the matter is that under the Biden-Harris administration those cities are coming back, including Detroit.

And so she is doing both and she's also focused on showing Republicans that it is time to turn the page. The hundreds of Republicans that she had at the event that she had earlier this week. The Republicans that worked for Donald Trump in his own cabinet and in the Oval Office that are now the ones that are saying this man is a danger to the country is also an important message, Kate.

So she's doing both and she's going to continue to do both, as she should.

BOLDUAN: There's a new -- there's some new reporting. You can -- do you want to say something?

JENNINGS: I mean, honestly, this --

BOLDUAN: Please make it short because I want to move on.

JENNINGS: -- this rewriting of the narrative on COVID. First of all, viruses don't care who the president is. They don't care what party you're in. Every Democrat and leftist in the country wanted the economy and our society shut down. More people died of COVID under Joe Biden than Donald Trump.

BOLDUAN: Then how do people -- it was not leftists running the economy.

JENNINGS: And Donald Trump --

BOLDUAN: People were -- people -- no one knew what was going on. That's what happened.

JENNINGS: Yeah, OK, fine.

BOLDUAN: We all lived this.

JENNINGS: Let me accept your framing of it. Then what Maria just said is complete bunk.

And finally -- and finally, he got Operation Warp Speed -- got the vaccine. Kamala Harris was saying she'd never take a Trump vaccine.

I mean, honestly, to talk about leadership and what happened during the pandemic and somehow say that the virus would have gone away faster if Donald Trump hadn't been the president is a -- is a total rewriting of what happened, but whatever.

BOLDUAN: Let's --

CARDONA: He denied the science, Scott. That's a fact. He denied the science. He took the --

JENNINGS: I'm sure -- I'm sure -- I'm sure the -- I'm sure the -- I'm sure the -- I'm sure the -- I'm sure the virus cared very deeply what he said.

CARDONA: He took the --

BOLDUAN: No. I mean, look, you guys can --

CARDONA: -- vaccine in secret while telling everyone else to inject bleach. I'm sorry. That's not leadership.

JENNINGS: Also debunked but go ahead.

BOLDUAN: You can't deny the actual bleacher commentary.

CARDONA: No.

BOLDUAN: Even the --

JENNINGS: It's been debunked.

BOLDUAN: Debunked? He said it in public.

JENNINGS: It's been -- it's been -- CARDONA: Oh my God. It came out of his mouth, Scott.

BOLDUAN: I'm moving on. I'm moving on. I'm moving on. He definitely said that we're looking into --

CARDONA: Yes.

BOLDUAN: -- fancy things and fun things that you could do with bleach.

JENNINGS: He gave us the vaccine.

BOLDUAN: He did. He did.

JENNINGS: That's all I'm saying.

BOLDUAN: OK, moving on. This is just out from Politico that I found fascinating. John Berman is the one who flagged it.

So there were conversations -- Donald Trump has recently -- we've seen he has canceled some interviews. He canceled with CNBC. He canceled with another NBC -- one of our dear friends, Christine Romans. He canceled an interview with that.

This is what Politico is reporting now. There were conversations with The Shade Room to potentially sit down with Donald Trump. And in conversations earlier this week when describing why an interview hadn't come together just yet, a Trump adviser told The Shade Room producers that Trump was "exhausted and refusing some interviews, but that could change at any time." This was according to two people that were familiar with the conversations. That he was exhausted.

Trump's national press secretary Karoline Leavitt made clear that she was not part of the back-and-forth in The Shade Room -- with The Shade Room regarding the interview but said the idea he's exhausted is unequivocally false.

Now this would be something that I know we heard from the Trump campaign would be going wacky about if they had said that Joe Biden was exhausted, or even if Kamala Harris was fatigued at all.

What do they do with this?

JENNINGS: Well, I think number one, at the end of any campaign you pick and choose the things that work best for you.

BOLDUAN: Um-hum.

JENNINGS: This is why I'm sure Kamala Harris didn't show up at the Chicago Economic Club forum this week, or turned down Time magazine, or didn't show up at the Al Smith Dinner last night.

And number two, so what? He's doing a ton of stuff. Tons of events. He gave an amazing standup set last night that had the most epic roasts of the campaign season.

[07:45:00]

I mean, he's doing plenty. He's doing fine. I don't think his campaign has anything to worry about from this reporting this morning. He looks pretty vigorous to me.

BOLDUAN: Exhausted. Thoughts, Maria -- final thought?

CARDONA: Yeah, he's old. He is an old man. He is not very healthy. He doesn't look very healthy.

Last night there were some chuckles. Scott and I were on set last night in New York and we laughed. But he completely missed the mark. It was cringy. It was insulting.

And every time he is now in public and in a rally, you can see his mental decline almost in real time. Everyone who has seen him now versus even 2016 and 2020 absolutely say he is not the man he was. And so for his own campaign to say that he is exhausted, I get it. He's an old man.

And so that also leads to the contrast of somebody new, somebody fresh. A fresh face in Kamala Harris who has the vigor, who has the temperament, and who understands how to be a real leader at a critical moment in time for our country.

BOLDUAN: Days to go, friends, and we're still here. Maria, Scott, thank you -- John.

CARDONA: Thanks, Kate.

BERMAN: All right. This morning -- this morning, swipe right or left. I just was too quick. I wanted to wait until the camera is on me. I was slowing down. I was rewinding. That was me rewinding.

BOLDUAN: Slow it down -- slow.

BERMAN: I rewound the tape.

BOLDUAN: Welcome to Friday.

BERMAN: This morning, swipe right or left takes on a whole new meaning ahead of the election. Some apps are adding prompts for users to match based on their political preferences.

CNN's Clare Duffy is with us this morning on all this -- Claire.

CLARE DUFFY, CNN BUSINESS WRITER: Yeah, John. For a long time these dating apps have let people display their general political affiliations. Are you conservative, moderate, or liberal? But lately we've seen dating apps in the past few months add questions and information that users can display on their profile to let other users know how engaged they are in this year's political election.

So, for example, Tinder has rolled out these stickers that you can put on your profile showing that you voted or that you stand for certain causes, like reproductive rights. I really love the one, although I am married and not on Tinder, that says "Hot people vote."

OK, Cupid has also added matching questions that users can show to other users that might be potential matches like -- things like what are the most important issues for you in this 2024 presidential election, or is it a dealbreaker if your match doesn't have the same political views as you do ahead of the 2024 election?

So really trying to give folks a way to show other users where they stand on some of these really personal issues as we head into the presidential election.

BERMAN: I most appreciate the disclaimer in there.

Clare Duffy, thank you for your reporting. I really appreciate your time.

And, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Swiping right or left. Which is it?

Donie O'Sullivan with some new reporting now the Christian nationalists are fighting to put Donald Trump back into the White House, while other religious leaders are warning he's a danger to democracy and the church.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Do you think Trump was sent from God?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do. I do.

SULLIVAN: Tell me more about that.

DOTTI DAVIDSON, TRUMP SUPPORTER: It was divine intervention. God calls people and they're not perfect people. So he has to call someone that's going to take a stand.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL)

[07:52:37]

BOLDUAN: Arizona prosecutors say all charges have now been dropped against a deaf Black man with cerebral palsy who was beaten by Phoenix police.

Remember this video after he did not respond to their orders. Thirty- four Tyron -- 34-year-old Tyron McAlpin was initially accused of theft and then officers claimed that he took a fighting stance when they approached. And they beat him and tased him after that.

The county attorney now says that she came to the decision to drop the charges after personally reviewing the evidence and speaking with senior attorneys, as well as community members. The officers involved in the incident -- they're still on active duty

with an internal investigation underway.

Now, this one is a bit of a head-scratcher. A former Olympic snowboarder is now on the run accused of running a drug trafficking ring in the United States. The FBI is offering a $50,000 reward for information leading to the arrest of Ryan Wedding. Agents say his group moved 60 tons of cocaine a year and also ordered the killings of four people.

He's just 34 years old. He's also charged with -- well, now charged with murder and drug crimes. And the FBI believes he could be hiding in Mexico.

And it is a transformation catching some Kansas City Chiefs and Tatay Swift-Swift fans off guard. Travis Kelce's new look -- that's not it. Just wait -- new look for his role on the FX horror series "GROTESQUERIE" -- ahh. One follower's reaction online, "What in the Billy Ray?"

Kelce's debut in the Ryan Murphy show earlier this month marked his first big scripted role, as it is very clear he and Taylor Swift continue their domination of all things American culture.

You would look fantastic with a bit of a mullet.

BERMAN: Thank you very much. What is it? Like, party in the back? What do they say? Business in the front, party in the back?

BOLDUAN: Party in the back.

BERMAN: Yeah.

BOLDUAN: Yeah. I have so many -- I have, like, hairstyles, dresses that do that. It's a real thing.

BERMAN: And Travis Kelce underexposed, I would say.

All right. New this morning an exclusive look at the ever-increasing confluence of religion and politics. Preachers pushing that Donald Trump is God's chosen leader.

CNN's Donie O'Sullivan went deep.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

We have to take God and put him back into the very moral fabric of this country. Otherwise, we will continue to see the decay, just like Rome. Rome fell and so will America.

SEAN FEUCHT, CHRISTIAN SINGER, SONGWRITER, ACTIVIST: Singing "Revival Is Coming."

They said why are you going to all these battleground states. Because, I said, it's not just a battleground politically; it's a battleground in the spirit. O'SULLIVAN: Do you think Trump was sent from God?

DAVIDSON: I do. I do.

O'SULLIVAN: Tell me more about that.

DAVIDSON: It was divine intervention. God calls people and they're not perfect people. So he has to call someone that's going to take a stand. And that's what Trump is doing. He is fulfilling his calling.

O'SULLIVAN (voiceover): It's a few weeks before Election Day and Christian singer, preacher, and Trump supporter Sean Feucht is here outside the North Carolina State Capitol.

FEUCHT: We're going to plead the blood over the Capitol.

O'SULLIVAN (voiceover): Feucht didn't mention Trump's name at this event at all, but the political undertones were very clear.

FEUCHT: We plead the blood of Jesus. Your blood speaks a better word than whatever's happening inside that building.

O'SULLIVAN: You are traveling to every state capitol?

FEUCHT: Yeah.

O'SULLIVAN: Just tell us the significance of that.

FEUCHT: It feels like it's more acceptable a lot of times in Capitols to have a drag queen -- a drag queen reading to kids rather than Christians worshipping. And so I -- my heart is like hey, let's empower people in the church to understand the significance of what happens in that building. Really, we're, in many ways, putting the politicians on notice in that building. Hey, the church is alive, we're aware, and there are -- there are things that we're going to stand for and things that we're going to stand against.

O'SULLIVAN: There's no official religion of this country, you would agree?

DAVIDSON: The religion that this country was based on is Christianity. I mean, for anyone to go and dispute that they're completely ignorant and blind.

O'SULLIVAN: But you believe in freedom in a religion?

DAVIDSON: Oh, yeah.

O'SULLIVAN: People can be --

DAVIDSON: People can be of different faiths and practice as they wish. But this is a Christian country, and this is what it was founded on, and that is what makes America so phenomenally great.

BEN MARSH, PASTOR, FIRST ALLIANCE CHURCH: What does that mean, though? Let's ask that question. What does it mean America is a Christian country?

We have a Constitution that is rooted in liberal democracy. You don't arrive at the American Constitution with just the Bible unless you're buying a Trump Bible, which already has the American Constitution in it.

This was the flag that went into the Senate when the doors were broken.

O'SULLIVAN (voiceover): I first met Pastor Ben Marsh almost four years ago --

MARSH: The Christian flag --

O'SULLIVAN (voiceover): -- after I saw this sermon that was posted online where he explains the role of Christianity and January 6.

MARSH: They thought they were doing the work of God because pastors and leaders have lied to them.

O'SULLIVAN (voiceover): Marsh says equating Christianity and American patriotism the way some of the Trump movement do is dangerous.

MARSH: It can create a cultlike attitude towards the leaders that are there because they're no longer just oh, that's the right guy -- I like his policies. Now it's oh, Jesus has chosen that person. So we have to follow that person to wherever they go.

O'SULLIVAN (voiceover): What Pastor Marsh is describing is Christian nationalism.

FEUCHT: I believe that's a term that's been weaponized --

O'SULLIVAN: Hmm.

FEUCHT: -- to kind of try to put Christians into a corner, right, where we don't exercise our faith in the public square.

O'SULLIVAN (voiceover): But Pastor Marsh disagrees. He's worried that Christian nationalism could lead to more violence.

MARSH: We are in a time when political violence is just kind of the air that we're breathing, and people are so afraid. It comes back to fear. So Trump supporters looking at Democrats. If they win, they're going to commit all these atrocities. You have Christian leaders that are saying they're going to lock you up. They're going to take away your pulpits. Just rampant lies.

TRUMP: I'm promoting the "God Bless the USA Bible."

O'SULLIVAN (voiceover): Far from distancing himself from Christian nationalism, Trump has embraced it, even selling a $60 Bible complete with the founding documents.

MARSH: You brought me a Trump Bible, "God Bless the USA." And then we say the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you all, Amen. And then all of a sudden you have the Declaration of Independence? What's the implication there, Donie? That government has been set in place to enact the will of Christ somehow? Honestly, it breaks my heart.

O'SULLIVAN: What about the people who say you're overreacting? I love my country.

MARSH: Um-hum.

O'SULLIVAN: I'm a Christian. I love the Bible. I love the founding documents. What's so bad about putting them together in one book?

MARSH: As a local pastor with my local church, I think what's so bad about this -- not just this Bible but the whole movement -- is it is enticing people to do things that really aren't Christian that make them feel like they're doing something that's Christian. And that's ultimately the problem.

All this partisan nonsense is that it's all designed to make people think that they're doing something for Jesus when they're really not. They're doing something for Trump. And look, they're going to do something for whoever replaces Trump.