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Testimony Resumes in Trial of Man Accused of Killing Nursing Student; Former Anti-Vax Influencer Explains What Changed Her Mind. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired November 18, 2024 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Moments ago in a Georgia courtroom, prosecutors played a recorded jailhouse phone call between murder suspect Jose Ibarra and his wife as she confronted him about what happened to Laken Riley.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: The 22-year-old nursing student who was attacked while jogging at the University of Georgia back in February. CNN's Rafael Romo is outside of court in Athens, Georgia for us. Rafael, who testified today?

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jim and Brianna, among others, two police officers, an FBI special agent, and a crime scene specialist. In the last hour, we heard a very powerful testimony in the form of a phone call that Jose Ibarra placed from prison to his wife in New York, Lailene Franco, that was played here in the courtroom. In the call, the exasperated wife says that she's tired of the suspect and urges him to tell the truth.

At one point, she asked, how can anyone see a person die and not call 911? Today, also, Jim and Brianna, on the second day of the trial against Jose Ibarra, we also heard from a University of Georgia police officer who testified to seeing injuries on the suspect. He said, look like fingernail scratches.

Sergeant Joshua Epps described his encounter with Ibarra the morning of February 23rd, one day after nursing student Laken Riley was murdered while she was out for a run. The prosecution showed multiple pictures of Ibarra showing scratches and bruises in his arms, wrists, hands, and lips. This is how Sergeant Epps described what he saw.

[15:35:05]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SGT. JOSHUA EPPS, UNIVERSITY OF GEORGIA POLICE DEPARTMENT: While speaking to him, I noticed on his right arm, his bicep, there was a scratch, which I identified as a potential defensive wound. On his left arm, he had a forearm scratch that was very similar, which, in my mind, looked like fingernail scratches to me.

(END VIDEO CLIP) ROMO: Sergeant Epps asked for the assistance of a Spanish-speaking officer. Corporal Rafael Sallan, also with the University of Georgia Police Department, noticed multiple injuries in Ibarra as well. Sallan testified that he saw injuries on the suspect, who gave very vague answers when asked about them.

As to why Ibarra had all those injuries, Corporal Sallan said, quote, he didn't give me a clear answer at all.

He also testified that Ibarra and the other people in the apartment were laughing and very relaxed, he said, the day after Laken Riley's murder.

Also today, we heard testimony from a crime scene specialist from the Georgia Bureau of Investigation who found plastic restaurant-style kitchen gloves and electronic devices in Ibarra's apartment -- Jim, Brianna.

SCIUTTO: So tell us about the mood inside the courtroom. I know that Laken Riley's parents were there. That always creates some powerful moments, I imagine.

ROMO: Yes, Jim, it's a relatively small courtroom, and this morning for the beginning of the proceedings, we saw not only Laken Riley's mother, Allison Phillips, stepfather, John Phillips, but multiple members of the family and friends. They filled up as many as three rows. So the courtroom was very, very packed.

And at moments, it becomes very emotional when the prosecution shows some of those pictures that are so graphic, so very difficult to see -- Jim. Brianna.

KEILAR: Rafael Romo, thank you for the latest from Athens, Georgia.

Ambassador Caroline Kennedy is speaking out about her cousin, Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s stance on vaccines, calling it dangerous. Next, we'll talk to a mother who used to share his views but now believes the anti-vaccine misinformation that she once promoted hurts children.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Vaccine conspiracy theorist and Donald Trump's pick to be the next Health and Human Services Secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., is facing pushback from another member of his prominent family. Today, Caroline Kennedy, the U.S. ambassador to Australia and cousin of RFK Jr., responded to a question about his anti-vax views. Here's what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAROLINE KENNEDY, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO AUSTRALIA: Yes, I think Bobby Kennedy's views on vaccines are dangerous. And I -- but I don't think that most Americans share them. So we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

But certainly he's, you know, I grew up with him. So I've known all this for a long time. And others are just getting to know him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: I want to talk more about this now with Heather Simpson. She's a former anti-vaccine influencer turned pro-vaccine advocate who says that she was swayed by RFK Jr.'s anti-vax rhetoric. Heather, thanks for being with us.

Can you just start by talking a little bit about what it was about RFK Jr. and about the message that sort of swayed you to this position initially?

HEATHER SIMPSON, FORMER VACCINE OPPONENT; INFLUENCED BY RFK, JR.: At the time, my ex-husband and I were trying for a baby, and, you know, we were bringing life into the world, and we have to be responsible for this life. So we were looking everywhere for answers on anything related to children and vaccines. And we stumbled upon a docuseries with RFK Jr. as one of the prominent figures in this docuseries. And I was like, wow, this series is full of doctors and lawyers and politicians. They must be telling the truth.

And I listened to them, and I remember watching RFK Jr. and thinking, wow, he's not?e says he's only for safe vaccines, and that he's not anti-vax, so he must be middle ground, and he's still saying don't necessarily vaccinate. I really -- you know, I kind of trust this guy, and that just kind of snowballed into me becoming this anti-vax, quote-unquote, influencer after that and not vaccinating our child at the time.

KEILAR: And you thought, if you vaccinated your child, that she would die. So how did you get from that to then changing your mind and coming back ultimately to a 180 on vaccines? What changed your mind?

SIMPSON: I had so much anxiety, and I know so many of my anti-vax friends at the time and still now have so much anxiety. They just want to keep their child alive, as most parents do. And so I truly, like you just said, thought that if we vaccinated my daughter, she would die that night. There wasn't a doubt in my mind based on the info I had been given, which was misinformation.

[15:45:00]

When I finally changed my mind, it was facts that did it. You know, I reached out to some scientists and some doctors after -- or during COVID, right when it first began. And I asked about aluminum, about formaldehyde, about polysorbate 80, and I said, you really can't convince me that these are not going to cause autism, that certain ingredients.

And I even broke it down into specific mechanisms because my anti-vax group had these theories, like this is how aluminum slips past the blood-brain barrier, this is how it causes inflammation. And they were able to break that down into the literal science and be completely transparent and just tell me the facts about vaccines so amazingly. It just blew my mind when they told me.

I was like, I was so wrong. I've been vaccinated confidently. I just needed somebody to sit down and just explain that to me.

KEILAR: And you were open to having it explained to you, certainly at a certain point. But I wonder, what worries you about having a vaccine skeptic like RFK Jr. getting such a high-profile platform as being HHS secretary?

SIMPSON: So I have advocated for vaccines for years. You know, I travel and speak about them. And I have always spoken out against RFK Jr. because he was so influential to me becoming anti-vaccine. And so the narrative, and just my friends, the narrative is horrifying. My friends are horrified about this potential situation with RFK Jr. I had someone call me yesterday and say, do you know he is going to go and watch vaccines? And I thought, I'm not sure that that is the case.

So I started researching more of what he has said exactly. And I'm not as concerned. Now, hear me out. I don't agree with him at all. We have opposite views on vaccines. But he is for choice, he is for consent, and he is for holding pharmaceutical companies liable.

And so I do believe in, you know, as someone on the left, I believe in choice and consent. And so I do think when we look at the facts, because that is what changed my mind with vaccines, when we look at the facts with RFK Jr., I don't believe that it's as catastrophic as we think. I do believe that he does hold views that are very different than my friends, myself, doctors. But I do not believe that he is as dangerous in his policy and the actual facts of what he's doing.

KEILAR: I think that, and I think there are a lot of people who look at some of his messages, Heather, and they say on its face, you know, that's great, chronic illness, food safety. I mean, who isn't going to agree on its face with some of these things as good ideas? But when it comes down to a position that initially, you know, won you over, or, you know, for instance, there's a story out today where he's talking about, you know, certain medications being so unsafe that certain countries don't even prescribe them when actually they do.

So he's just stating something that isn't true. Do you worry if he says something that is not true that it's going to influence people?

SIMPSON: I do. I do worry about that. But I do worry about that with most politicians and everyone. I think everyone should be held accountable for speaking the truth. So I do think, as far as his policy is concerned, that we are for the choice to, and the consent, and, you know, holding pharmaceutical companies liable, but also holding him liable for speaking the truth on things that could affect public health.

So again, I don't agree with him on his views about vaccines at all. So I'm not totally sure what to say on that. But as far as his policy, I think that is more of a solid thing.

KEILAR: Yes. Look, I see your point. We should certainly hold politicians accountable for the truth and look skeptically on a lot of statements.

Heather Simpson, thank you so much. We appreciate your time today. SIMPSON: Thank you.

KEILAR: And we'll be right back.

[15:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Just days after Netflix viewers complained of buffering video and glitchy sound during the highly anticipated Mike Tyson-Jake Paul fight. I know, I was watching. Netflix announced it will stream both of the NFL's Christmas Day games. And Beyonce will perform at halftime.

CNN's Don Riddell joins me now. Don, it's a big moment for Netflix. You know, it was not a great rollout on Saturday night. If you were watching it as well, what does it mean? I mean, is the NFL going to be happy with this?

DON RIDDELL, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're going to see soon, Jake, aren't we? I mean, sorry, Jim. Yes, it was a difficult night to watch.

I don't know if you actually stuck around to watch the fight at the end. I personally didn't. I kind of got to the end of the women's fight between Katie Taylor and Amanda Serrano and that was about as much as I could take. I think I chose the best sports event on the night because that was an incredible fight. But the technical issues were really quite concerning.

The line they're spinning now is that basically the fight was so big it broke the Internet. I suppose you could say it was so good it was bad. But I think the NFL will be concerned. And especially now with the introduction or the addition of the Beyonce halftime show, they're going to be getting big numbers again on Christmas Day.

[15:55:00]

So I think sports fans, Netflix executives are going to have to all hope that this was a very steep learning curve and it's one that they will learn from and they will do better on Christmas Day. But clearly they're going to have to figure this out because this is the way the business is going. And this is the way Netflix wants to go as well as a broadcaster.

SCIUTTO: Well, what do they say? Hope is not a plan, right? Don Riddell, thanks so much.

When we come back, why a small, remote Alaskan town is about to be plunged into darkness until next year?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Right now, the northernmost town in the United States is about to say goodbye to the sun for more than two months. In just a few hours, Utqiagvik -- I think I got that right. KEILAR: Good job.

SCIUTTO: It's way up there -- will begin its long polar night. Because of the Earth's tilt this time of year, the town's nearly 5,000 residents are going to live in darkness for 66 days.

KEILAR: Their next sunrise won't happen until January 22nd.

[16:00:00]

On the bright side, literally, summers in this remote Arctic enclave are filled with light. They actually have 83 straight days of full sun between May and August. I don't know, Jim, that might be too much of a good thing.

SCIUTTO: Then you got to pay for it later. 66 days of dark? I mean, if you watch it, we were talking about a True Detective Night Country. I mean, that's some spooky stuff.

KEILAR: Yes. If you're afraid of the dark, it's rough.

"THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right now.

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