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Key House Meeting As Fate Of Matt Gaetz Ethics Report Looms; House Panel Meets On Releasing Matt Gaetz Ethics Report; GOP Rep. Mace Introduces Anti-Transgender Bathroom Bill. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired November 20, 2024 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:01:23]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: The pressure is on as President Elect Donald Trump lobbies senators to support Matt Gaetz for attorney general. The House Ethics Committee is weighing whether to release its findings into Gaetz's past, including allegations he had sex with an underage woman.

Plus the issue of LGBTQ rights shifting from the campaign trail to the Capitol. Sarah McBride, the first out transgender person elected to Congress, responding to Republican efforts to block her from using women's restrooms on Capitol Hill.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And more legal trouble for Rudy Giuliani. The disgraced former New York Mayor is accused of defaming again the two election workers that he already owes more than $100 million to. We are following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN News Central.

SANCHEZ: We're watching a series of high stakes discussions on Capitol Hill today that could make or break former Congressman Matt Gaetz's chances to become attorney general. Right now, the House Ethics Committee is huddled behind closed doors as it weighs whether to release its report on allegations of sexual misconduct and illicit drug use against Gaetz.

While Gaetz is holding meetings of his own with incoming Vice President J.D. Vance by his side, they've been speaking to key Republican senators to make the case that Gaetz deserves their support despite the serious allegations and questions he's facing. But a growing number of those Republican senators say they want to see this report before they weigh his nomination.

Let's take you live to Capitol Hill with CNN Chief Congressional Correspondent Manu Raju. Manu, what have you been hearing from lawmakers on this?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, actually, Matt Gaetz behind the scenes has been meeting with these Republican senators, actually trying to rebut the allegations in this House at this Committee report. Remember, this investigation has been going on for multiple years looking into allegations of sexual misconduct, illicit drug use, all of which Gaetz denies. But we have not seen the details of the report.

And this Committee, which is meeting in the room behind me, 10 members evenly divided between the House -- between Democrats and Republicans, are debating what to do with this report now that Gaetz is a former member of Congress. Remember, he just resigned last week. The speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, is leaning on this Committee not to release his report, saying would open up a Pandora's box, even though there is precedent for releasing reports after members have resigned from Congress.

Now, I caught up with the Chairman of the House Ethics Committee, Republican Michael Guest, as he walked into this hearing. And I asked him whether or not Donald Trump is leaning on him to prevent this report from coming out and whether he supports releasing it to the public.

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RAJU: Have you heard from Trump or his team at all about this?

REP. MICHAEL GUEST, (R) CHAIRMAN, ETHICS COMMITTEE: I have not heard from President Trump or any of his team.

RAJU: There are two options, you say.

GUEST: Well, what I said is I view a public release versus a conversation about transmittal to the center. I think those are separate conversations that the committee needs to discuss.

RAJU: Is the report actually done at this point?

GUEST: The report is not complete. It's not.

MAN #1: That's correct.

RAJU: And so how could you possibly release it if it's not done?

GUEST: That is something that we will be talking about today. And that's another reason I have some reservations about releasing any unfinished work problems.

RAJU: How far would you say it is from quick completion?

GUEST: It has not gone through the review process.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[14:05:00]

RAJU: Now, Democrats say that the report is essentially ready for release. So there's a disagreement between members on this panel. There's concerns about Democrats. The Republicans are trying to bury this report and prevent it from becoming public. But ultimately, in order to get this out of the Committee, we'll see if they actually have a vote today. We're unclear if that will happen. If that happens, it would require one Republican to join with Democrats on this Committee to release it to the public. As you heard from Michael Guest right there, he told me there are two options. There could be a public release or they can transmit it to the Senate Judiciary Committee themselves.

That is -- those are among the issues they are debating in this critical meeting as the Gaetz nomination very much hanging by a thread at the uphill climb of sorts to get the votes to be confirmed because of the very issues this Committee is investigating. Those allegations concerning a lot of Republican senators, some of whom want to see that report before they cast that critical confirmation vote early next year. Boris.

SANCHEZ: Manu Raju, live outside the Committee on House Ethics. Keep us posted on what comes out of that room. Thanks, Manu.

In addition to that House Ethics investigation, Gaetz was also the target of a years long sex trafficking probe by the Department of Justice which ultimately ended last year with the DOJ declining to bring charges against Gaetz. Now CNN reported at the time that prosecutors working on the case had recommended against charging Gaetz in part because of questions over whether central witnesses would be perceived as credible before a jury. Senate Judiciary Democrats are now asking the FBI to release its records in the case.

Let's discuss with CNN Senior Law Enforcement Analyst, Andrew McCabe. He was deputy director of the FBI. Andrew, great to see you as always. What do you make of this argument from Republicans that because no charges were filed against Gaetz, that the investigation didn't turn into a prosecution that led to ultimately criminal charges, that there was no wrongdoing?

ANDREW MCCABE, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: So there are many reasons why the Department of Justice might choose not to bring a case at the end of an investigation. Some of them might be that essential witnesses, maybe victims of crime are unwilling to cooperate or it would be impossible for them to cooperate. Other witnesses, co- conspirators, co-defendants, possibly might be essential to that case, which I suspect may have been the case here.

But those folks are in this -- in this case you had one particular witness Mr. -- I think it was Greenberg was the alleged kind of co- conspirator in this activity. He's already pled guilty to sex trafficking and is serving an extensive time in prison. It's possible The Department determined that they could not build a case without him, and he would be a terrible witness because of his own bad acts in front of the jury. So none of that means the underlying predication wasn't valid to some extent. So it's not clearing him. It's simply not prosecuting him.

SANCHEZ: Democrats are trying to get their hands on some of this testimony, whether through the House Ethics Committee or through the DOJ investigation. But historically, the Justice Department doesn't provide access to investigative materials. Do you suspect that would be any different here? MCCABE^ I do not. I think it's an essential principle in the Department of Justice and the FBI not to share sensitive investigative information outside the context of a public trial and prosecution. And that's essentially the position they will likely take here.

It's absolutely different. A different question when we're saying should the Ethics Committee share the results of their investigation, which again, will not lead -- could not ever lead to a criminal conviction or the denial of Mr. Gaetz's liberty, but is relevant to his character, his ethics, and his performance as a United States Congressman.

SANCHEZ: There are also questions about what he might intend to do as attorney general. And before he was announced as Trump's nominee to become AG, there were these proposals to essentially disband and abolish the FBI and ATF. Do you imagine that might be an actual course of action that he could pursue if he's confirmed as attorney general? What would the ramifications be for having someone like him at the Head of the Department of Justice?

MCCABE: You know, these agencies that we're talking about are not simply things dreamed up by a prior presidency or executive branch. These are congressionally funded, legislatively established agencies. You can't just wave your, you know, magic attorney general hand and it goes away overnight. So I don't think the abolishment of these institutions, first of all, it's a terrible idea, and I don't think it's really possible.

But what he could do is hobble them by eliminating the individuals who we rely upon to provide the expertise and the experience to run those agencies every day in a way that all Americans depend upon, and replacing them with political folks who are really not there to forward the mission and protect the American people, but rather there to cut their legs out from under the agency to make it less effective.

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SANCHEZ: Andrew McCabe, always great to get your perspective. Thanks for joining us.

MCCABE: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Brianna.

KEILAR: Let's talk a little bit more about this now with Republican Congressman Carlos Gimenez of Florida. Sir, thank you so much for taking time to be with us. Do you think the Ethics Committee should release their report on Gaetz?

REP. CARLOS GIMENEZ (R-FL): I think that if the Senate deems that something that they need in order to carry out their duty of either affirming or not or rejecting the nomination, and if they request it, I think that the Ethics Committee should release it. We shouldn't be a hindrance to the Senate performing their duty on the nomination process. KEILAR: So what do you make of the Chairman seeming to be hesitant to release that, considering you have a number of Senate Republicans saying they want this report, some of them even saying it would speed up the process?

GIMENEZ: Well, I guess, you know, that it all depends whether they have formally requested this information. And I would be in favor of giving the Senate the information that they formally request. I'm not sure that that has been formally requested. I know that in the -- in the media they have said they want it, but I'm not sure there's been a formal request for that information from the Senate.

KEILAR: Do you think the Speaker has pressured the Committee not to release this report by saying that he doesn't want the Committee to release the report?

GIMENEZ: I'm not privy to what the Speaker has said to the Members of the Committee. The Committee, look --

KEILAR: No. Yes, you are. We all are. He said it publicly.

GIMENEZ: Well, I'm not privy to that. I don't know what -- what he -- if he spoke to them, then fine. I mean, that's -- that's his prerogative but --

KEILAR: No, he spoke to all of us.

GIMENEZ: Other members. We don't -- we don't speak to -- to who?

KEILAR: He said it publicly.

GIMENEZ: I'm sorry?

KEILAR: He said it publicly -

GIMENEZ: Okay. And so --

KEILAR: That he doesn't think the Committee should release the report.

GIMENEZ: Well, that's publicly, yeah. Okay. To all of us. Yeah. And then that the Committee members will take that in consideration and when they deliberate and then vote however they want to vote. So, you know, the Speaker carries some weight, but again, the Ethics Committee and the people that are part of the Ethics Committee are pretty independent folks and I don't have confidence in their judgment. And so one of them, the Chair, is somebody that I have a lot of confidence in, a former Prosecutor, and I think that they'll do the right thing.

KEILAR: Do you think that Matt Gaetz would make a good attorney general?

GIMENEZ: It doesn't matter what I think. The President -- the President Elect of the United States thinks that he'll make a good attorney general. Look, the president has every right to choose who he wants to choose as attorney general. I have made no secret. I'm not a fan of Matt Gaetz. I wasn't a fan of his when he was here, and I think that he was disruptive here in the House of Representatives. But the president also thinks that things need to be shaken up at the DOJ and the FBI. And Matt Gaetz has shown, if he's shown anything, that he is a disruptive force. And so, you know, the president has faith in him.

Now it's up to the Senate to determine whether they want to affirm that nomination or reject it. And that's how it goes in our country. And so I expect that the process will be followed and that we in the House should facilitate the Senate and their deliberations and how they determine whether he should be affirmed or not.

KEILAR: You speak highly of Chairman Guest of the Ethics Committee. Do you have confidence that the Ethics Committee has given Gaetz a fair shake, that this has been a fair process as they have investigated him and prepared this report?

GIMENEZ; Yes, I do. Absolutely do. I know the people that sit at least on our side of the aisle on that Ethics Commission and they're highly ethical and they're fair. And so whatever comes out of that report, I have confidence that it was done in a fair bipartisan manner because I have confidence in the Chair and the members of the Republican Party that sit on that Ethics Committee.

KEILAR: And do you trust that Senate Republicans who are asking for the report would fairly interpret it if they had it to see?

GIMENEZ: I would hope so. I mean, that's why -- look, whatever is in the report, there's a lot of speculation about what's in the report. One way or the other, I think it's going to come out. I mean, somebody said that this is like the Titanic here, and so it'll probably come out. I do trust the Republican senators to take the information and maybe witnesses, et cetera, and then give Matt Gaetz a fair shot. That's what he's entitled to.

And some deference given to the, to a President Elect Donald Trump, because that's who he wants. It doesn't mean, though, that he will automatically be appointed or affirmed by the Senate.

[14:15:06]

That's part of the process and I trust the process.

KEILAR: It's not just speculation at this point, though, right? I mean, you have the lawyer for women who spoke to the Committee telling us what they told the Committee. So that's -- that's more than speculation.

GIMENEZ: No, well, actually, the speculation is what's in the report from the Ethics Commission. That's what I'm talking about. Okay. What's in there? That's speculation. I don't -- I don't know what's in there. Did they find him guilty of something or did they exonerate him? I don't know because I haven't seen the report and nobody's spoken about it. That's what I'm talking about. That an attorney for one of the accusers says xyz. Great. But, you know, attorneys have been known to not tell the truth all the time. So again, Matt Gaetz deserves his day. And hopefully when Matt Gaetz gets his day, then all relevant facts will be brought to light and the Senate can make the determination whether he should be or not be the next attorney general.

KEILAR: I take your point on the speculation. We can't really know unless we see the report. Congressman Gimenez, thank you so much for being with us. We appreciate it.

GIMENEZ: Thank you, ma'am. It's my pleasure.

KEILAR: Ahead this hour on CNN News Central, the U.S. Embassy in Kyiv temporarily closed amid warnings of a significant air attack. And this is happening just a day after Ukraine's first use of American made longer range missiles into Russian territory.

Plus, the first openly transgender person elected to Congress effectively barred from using women's restrooms on Capitol Hill. Actress and Transgender Rights Advocate Laverne Cox will join us to discuss.

SANCHEZ: And more legal troubles for disgraced former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani. The new accusations against him when we come back.

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14:21:33]

SANCHEZ: House Speaker Mike Johnson today announcing all single sex bathrooms at the U.S. capitol are, quote, "Reserved for individuals of that biological sex". Now that effectively bans transgender people from using them, though Johnson does not outline a plan for how he would enforce that kind of rule. This all started with Republican Representative Nancy Mace, who introduced a bill to prevent her soon to be colleague Sarah McBride from using the women's restrooms when she becomes the first openly trans person in Congress next year.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY MACE, (R) SOUTH CAROLINA: I'm absolutely 100% going to stand in the way of any man who wants to be in a women's restroom, in our locker rooms, in our changing rooms. I will be there fighting you every step of the way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: McBride responded to Mace's bill on X, writing, Everyday Americans go to work with people who have life journeys different than their own and engage with them respectfully, I hope members of Congress can muster that same kindness.

And joining us now is actress and transgender rights advocate Laverne Cox. Laverne, thank you so much for joining us this afternoon. You hear this bill that's being proposed by Congresswoman Nancy Mace. What is your reaction to this?

LAVERNE COX, ACTRESS & TRANSGENDER RIGHTS ADVOCATE: First of all, thank you so much for having me, and thank you for having an actual trans person come on to discuss trans issues. It feels kind of revolutionary these days. Perhaps other media outlets will take note.

What I think is, for me, is really important to remember in this moment, particularly with the Mace -- this Mace moment and just the overall tenor of the anti-trans backlash that we've been seeing in the media over the past several years, is that we have to be able to hold a couple of things that are maybe contradictory at the same time.

How wonderful that the citizens of Sarah McBride's district said, we want you to represent us in Congress and send her and had her make history as the first trans person to serve in Congress. And then that happened in an environment where over $215 million was spent in anti- trans ads. An insane amount of money to stigmatize and dehumanize transgender people.

So right now, what I'm most interested in is the state and the condition of trans people. What this does is it emboldens people who are anti-trans who want to be bigoted to bully. A Washington Post article earlier this year noted that, this is even before election season fully kicked in, that because of all of the anti-trans and anti-LGBTQ legislation on the state level, that bullying of LGBTQ young people had quadrupled.

We should also note that the Trevor Project which is a major organization that prevents LGBTQ suicide in young people and provides amazing services, they have a hotline and their calls increased 700% after the election. Trans people are afraid. LGBTQ people are afraid right now. And we have been spoken about, but we've not been spoken to. We've been deeply dehumanized.

And it's so important for us, as we move forward, to have action items in place so that -- for our survival. And remember that we are human, that we deserve dignity. Sarah McBride deserves dignity as she goes to serve her country and the House of Representatives.

[14:25:05]

And that (inaudible) with our survival and with the process of rehumanization, for all of those people who say they love and care about us. We have to rehumanize trans people and all the people who've been dehumanized over the past several years.

SANCHEZ: Laverne, we very much appreciate having your voice. And as you pointed out, representation matters in part because it helps to bridge the disconnect between folks that may not be familiar with trans issues and the journey that some folks go on. I wonder, for those that aren't familiar, what is the impact of restrictions on bathroom access for trans people? And where do you think the apprehension or the hesitation from folks like Nancy Mace comes from?

COX: I try to make the most generous assumption and assume people have the best of intentions. But I think if you know -- if you know anything about the history of anti-trans bathroom backlash. In 2016, famously, North Carolina attempted HB2 to ban trans people from the bathrooms in North Carolina. Other states had tried that in the past, and those legislative efforts mostly failed, right? When they were targeting trans people in bathrooms pre-2016, they mostly failed.

After that and after the passage of marriage equality, Republican think tanks got together, focus grouped, and said, what trans issue are you most incensed about? Trans people in sports. So then we begin to see all of these bills pop up in state legislatures that targeted trans people in sports. Trans people in sports became the Trojan horse to dehumanize and stigmatize trans people. That led to trans against gender affirming care for young people.

Now half the country, 26 states, have sports bans in place, and 26 states ban gender affirming care for young people to the Trojan horse, trans people in sports. Then we got to protect the children when it was never about the children, because several states have introduced bills banning gender affirming care up to the age of 26.

Donald Trump himself said that he wants to make biological sex the law of the land. And that is assigned at birth. And that is binary. This is what Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House, has basically also asserted. This has never been about the children. It's been about scapegoating trans people, eradicating us from public life, as Matt Knowles will say, and what -- Michael Knowles. Yeah, that's his name. Michael Knowles.

And I think the most important thing for us to remember as trans people and then as people in general is that when we dehumanize people, we dehumanize ourselves. And I have to -- I want to say what Brene Brown says about dehumanization. She defines dehumanization as moving a particular group of people into a place of moral exclusion. And she uses that phrase, moral exclusion, because we as human beings are not hardwired to harm each.

We have empathy and we love each other. But if a group of people is rendered subhuman, the Nazis use the term untermeschen subhuman, then we can take away their rights. Then we can abuse them and commit violence against them.

So we've seen the systematic dehumanization of trans people in the media and in policy proposals on both the left and the right. And now that we've been sufficiently dehumanized, now they have impunity to just take all our rights, stigmatize us, scapegoat us. And so for me, as a trans person, 52 years old, in therapy for 24 years, I've struggled loving myself.

So I think about all the trans people out there who are calling the Trevor Project the trans young person who I was made aware of, who is 18 years old and struggling and was thinking of suicide. And my publicist was like, maybe you can send her a video to help. I think about all those young people who are struggling, the parents who are terrified that I've gotten messages from about what is going to happen for their child.

We have to be engaged in the process of rehumanizing, centering the lived experience of trans people, if we care. And for trans, every trans person out there, you are beautiful, you are anointed. You deserve to be here. And we have to, we must survive this by any means necessary.

So I'm encouraging people to make sure their identity documents are up to date with the proper name, gender marker, look into campaign facility. Quality is a wonderful organization to help with that. Lambda Legal is another organization to help with getting all your documents together. Hope for the best and prepare for the worst with this upcoming administration.

KEILAR: And we are just learning, Laverne, we should say this just came in that McBride says she's going to honor Johnson's bathroom rule on Capitol Hill. The truth is, she may not have much of a choice, right? The Republicans are in control, and this is the rule that he's putting in place.

But I do want to ask you about, you mentioned sports, the sports issue, because this is what -- that is, a sort of a wedge issue that is dividing Democrats as well. We heard --