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John Ramsey and Joe Berlinger are Interviewed About New Netflix Docuseries; Battle Between Alito and Kagan; Hosting Thanksgiving on a Budget. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired November 26, 2024 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:31:46]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: The murder of JonBenet Ramsey in 1996 captivated the nation. The six-year-old child, pageant queen, found dead in her home with no one ever being charged and convicted for her murder.

Now, nearly 30 years later, can you believe that, a new Netflix documentary just released and is taking a new look at the case and the investigation with hopes of finally finding some answers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And in a crime scene, particularly one as contaminated is this, is problematic, I think, to take too much to the bank based on any one DNA result.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What does that mean in terms of everyone who's given a DNA sample? I think if the DNA is faulty, a lot of people could still be a suspect.

JOHN ANDREW RAMSEY: We've been in the practice of ruling people out based on DNA. And if we take what the police have said at face value and, you know, the reporting done by guys like Charlie Brennan (ph), who say that the DNA in the case isn't as valuable or significant as we think, then we've been ruling people out for the wrong reasons, right? Everybody should be back on the table.

The police have never ruled out John and Patsy Ramsey based solely on this DNA. How do you rule anybody out based solely on this DNA? You have to go deeper. You have to sort the DNA we have today and make more sense of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Joining me right now is Joe Berlinger, the director of the new Netflix docu series. The name of it is "Cold Case: Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey." Also joining us is JonBenet's father, John Ramsey.

Gentlemen, thank you both for being here.

JOHN RAMSEY, FATHER OF JONBENET RAMSEY: Thanks for having us.

BOLDUAN: Joe, that's just a snippet of all of the work that you all together in - in diving into this. Why did you decide to focus in on this as your latest project?

JOE BERLINGER, DIRECTOR, NETFLIX DOCUSERIES, "COLD CASE: WHO KILLED JONBENET RAMSEY": Well, you know, basically because I think the crime can be solved. I mean there's some DNA testing that John Ramsey and his family have been demanding for a long time. The Boulder Police, even though there's new people in charge, the Boulder Police seems to be dragging their feet, you know. And this is one of the most botched crime scenes (INAUDIBLE) this poor man has been under a cloud of suspicion for decades, even though they've been officially exonerated.

If you ask the average man on the street, they will say, hey, oh, yes, isn't that the story where the parents killed their - their daughter, which, I mean, can you imagine losing a daughter in such a vicious way, losing a daughter period, you know, I'm the father of daughters. I couldn't get up in the morning or, you know, if something, God forbid, happened for an hour, let alone this terrible outcome, and then to be blamed for it. I mean, it's just incredible.

BOLDUAN: Yes. And, John, I mean, this many years later, you also - I was reading that you also still believe that this case could be solved. Why, how, and what do you think needs to happen to do that, John?

RAMSEY: Well, I do believe it can be solved using the latest technology that's out there now. You know, we had DNA results in 1997 of an unidentified male DNA.

[09:35:00]

It was mixed - that DNA sample was mixed with some of JonBenet's DNA. That can now be separated technically.

Our big frustration, almost from day one, is that we knew the police did not have the capacity or the capability or the experience to - to deal with this case. And we knew they were totally focused on Patsy and I. And that, you know, we were aghast, but said to them, OK, great, you know, let's work through that and then don't stop there. Well, they did stop there.

And our big frustration with the police all along has been that they've refused help from the outside that could have helped. And that - we - we are somewhat encouraged now because they have brought leadership in from the outside. Their leadership was terrible for 25 years, in my opinion. An overview board has recommended - recommended a little while ago that five of their seven detectives be terminated immediately because of failure to investigate crimes properly. So, there's been kind of a housecleaning, and we're encouraged.

The key thing they've got to do is accept help from the outside. There's lots of help that can come in if they're invited. And that's the weird thing about our system is that if the police don't want help, help cannot come in regardless of how incompetent they are. BOLDUAN: John, before - I've got more questions about the series. But

first, just - Patsy died in 2006. And just as you and Joe are talking about, how quickly the investigation focused in on you and Patsy -

RAMSEY: Right.

BOLDUAN: Even with no evidence to make any connection.

RAMSEY: Correct.

BOLDUAN: What has that been like for 30 years now?

RAMSEY: Well, you know, initially it didn't matter. We were so crushed and devastated by the loss of our child. Everything else around that was noise level. It didn't matter. And Patsy said, you can't hurt me any deeper than I've been hurt by the loss of JonBenet. So, it - it didn't matter.

I mean we were frustrated that the police weren't moving ahead. It was - you know, our attorney said, look, the police think you're guilty. You can't talk to them. That's just defense attorney 101. We can't let you talk to the police. And we were like, well, come on, they - they've got to have some ounce of common sense. Let's - let's sit down and talk.

Well, that was always a frustration for us. And there were things demonstrated over time that made us believe the police had no common sense and were very focused on us. It was kind of a group think effort. And it was an attempted lynching, basically.

And so, our big frustration was that they just would not accept help from the outside.

BOLDUAN: And who knows what - who knows what a fresh look at it today could shake up now. I mean we have seen attention to other major, very different cases -

RAMSEY: Yes.

BOLDUAN: Just thinking of the Menendez brothers, the attention shined there, Joe, and how that has changed potentially kind of the course of that - that case, that conviction.

BERLINGER: Yes.

BOLDUAN: I mean, who even knows.

And that's what I was really curious as to, from everything that you, Joe, what - you interviewed - you had John as part of the docuseries. Also lawyers and journalists who covered the whole thing. What is the most important thing that you uncovered?

BERLINGER: Well, just how trampled the crime scene was, just how technology has so advanced that we really, again, think we can solve the crime. You know, Golden State Killer, Green River Killer. There have been a lot of advances, particularly with genealogical DNA. You know (INAUDIBLE) massive database now. And certain cold cases in recent years have been - have been solved because of that. So, we just want, you know, this intransigence by Boulder Police. We just don't understand.

You know, I've done a lot of wrongful conviction cases over the years, most notably the West Memphis Three case Paradise Lost, which we've talked about in the past. The number one thing that leads to wrongful conviction is police tunnel vision. They get an idea early on and they can't move off of it. That is what happened in this case.

But if you look at the autopsy report, if you look at the forensic evidence, which we do a deep dive on, it - to me it's indisputable that this was the work of an intruder and completely absurd to think the family did it.

So, it's time to get over it, Boulder, and do the right thing by these people.

BOLDUAN: Wow.

John, I read that you've chosen to not watch the documentary, John. Why?

RAMSEY: Well, you know, I - I - I don't think I've ever watched any of the broadcasts that I've participated in over the years. I don't know why. I just - it's like - I - it's - it's hard to watch that stuff for me.

[09:40:04]

And my wife, Jan, is watching it. She will be my filter and say, well, you - you can watch this part, but don't watch this part, it will be too hard for you emotionally.

It's - you know, we've -- this has not gone away from our life for 28 years. And it will - yet we've still got to go on living.

And, you know, the thing that got Patsy and I going again, early on was we had three other children that needed us desperately to be good, strong parents. And we used to call them pity parties when we both got down. We'd say, OK, let's not have a pity party here. Let's get up off the floor and get moving again. And that kept us going and pushing ahead.

But, I agree with Joe, given today's technology, it can be solved. I'm convinced of it, if that technology is used. That's all we're asking the police to do is use the latest technology. They've got to go outside. They don't have the capacity. If they do that and we come up empty handed, then I'll say, well, thank you, at least we tried. We tried everything that could be done. Right now we're not doing that.

BOLDUAN: And now I think I see what's getting you going and keeping you going this time around. BERLINGER: Yes, and -

BOLDUAN: Joe Berlinger, it's - I'm looking forward to seeing the whole thing. Thank you so much, Joe.

John, thanks for coming in.

Thank you both very much.

BERLINGER: Thanks for having me.

RAMSEY: Thank you so much.

BOLDUAN: Thank you so much. Again, it's "Cold Case: Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey," on Netflix.

Coming up for us, new reporting this morning that tensions are rising between two senior Supreme Court justices ahead of Donald Trump's second term in office. The new reporting on that coming in.

And a new survey revealing that roughly half of people hosting Thanksgiving dinner this year are worried about how much it will cost. Five ways to make your Thanksgiving dinner more affordable. That's next.

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[09:46:22]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, "Wicked" versus "Gladiator II." Tyson versus Paul. And now Kagan versus Alito. The Supreme Court justices are being added to the list of top battles of 2024. We have new reporting that the sparring between Justices Samuel Alito and Elena Kagan has been heating up since Donald Trump's victory.

CNN chief Supreme Court analyst Joan Biskupic joins us now for the latest on this.

You didn't see "Gladiator II" coming there, did you, Joan?

JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN CHIEF SUPREME COURT ANALYST: I didn't. But, you know, if only there were cameras in the courtroom, John. But, fortunately, I'm there for you, OK.

You know, those two justices really personify the ideological and political gulf that this Supreme Court, you know, liberal Kagan, conservative Alito. And they've really been going at it, especially, you know, beginning with the day right after Donald Trump won the White House back, they were really escalating the hypotheticals.

The two of them are, you know, really, for their respective sides, you know, as sharp-tongued and piercing as it - as it goes when they're questioning the lawyers standing in the well of the courtroom. And they're both very aware of where the other justices are to try to figure out who's in play and open to persuasion. And the day after the election, there was a real competition on

several hypotheticals going back and forth. They were trying to top each other. And at one point Justice Kagan said - normally she doesn't even refer to Justice Alito, who's - she doesn't look at him, who's sitting right next to her. She just goes after his hypotheticals. And she looks out at the spectators at one point and says, you know, sometimes we really enjoy this. And Chief Justice John Roberts says a bit under his breath, "only sometimes."

Anyway, I think we're going to see more of that and more of that coming once Donald Trump actually takes the White House.

But I should say, John, next week we have a really important case about transgender rights for minors who've been denied any kind of gender affirming care in Tennessee because of a law that was passed there in 2023. The Biden administration is defending that law, John. And if ever there's a real target for Sam Alito, it's the Biden administration's lawyers when they appear. And if there's ever a subject for real sympathy from Justice Kagan, it's when the Biden administration stands up there. So, I think we're going to see a lot of tension when that case is argued next Wednesday over Tennessee's ban on transgender care.

And then after that, John, when a new Trump solicitor general comes in to defend Trump positions, they'll reverse roles and it will be Justice Alito being more sympathetic to the government's position and Justice Kagan trying to pin that lawyer against the wall, John.

BERMAN: All right, Joan Biskupic, thank you very much.

We are lucky to have you in that courtroom, though I have to say it's like you're taunting us by reminding us there are no cameras in the Supreme Court. Why? Why? It's 2024.

Thank you very much. I digress.

BISKUPIC: Thank you, John.

BERMAN: All right, this morning, Thanksgiving on a budget. We have new reporting on ways to cut down your grocery bill for the holiday.

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[09:54:04]

BOLDUAN: What we think of Thanksgiving - you should hear what he says in the break.

When we think of Thanksgiving, so many things come to mind. Great food, fun, family sometimes awkward conversation. And a great parade. And a John Berman special to boot.

BERMAN: Yes.

BOLDUAN: But also stress. Stress over getting it all done. And for so many, stress over paying for that Thanksgiving meal. On that one, we can help you. CNN's Vanessa Yurkevich is here. She's been uncovering some clever ways to keep it in budget, friend.

VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we are trying to keep it in budget for everybody because 44 percent of Americans say they're concerned about what they're spending this Thanksgiving, and 30 percent are not trimming the turkey but trimming their guest list this year to try to save a little bit of money.

BOLDUAN: Oh, yes.

YURKEVICH: Thanksgiving dinner is more affordable than last year, but still 19 percent higher than pre-pandemic. Americans have been spending 22 percent more at the grocery store compared to 2021.

But here are the tips from the experts, not from me personally. The turkey this year. If you wait a little bit longer to buy your turkey, which is down 6 percent this year, you start to get a little more savings.

[09:55:06]

BOLDUAN: Why is that giggle worthy?

BERMAN: Well, like, wait till, what, like Friday or like - like, how long do you have to wait to get a turkey?

YURKEVICH: I mean, I think we bought our turkey the day before.

BERMAN: OK.

YURKEVICH: So, yes, I probably saved a little bit of money. Rewards programs at grocery stores. A lot of grocery stores have apps. So, check the apps to make sure that you're getting all the savings. Also stores like ShopRite, if you spend $400 throughout the year, you get a free turkey this year.

BOLDUAN: Oh.

YURKEVICH: And they've been doing this for a long time. But make sure you know how much you're spending.

Store brands versus name brands. That's where you can save a lot of money. Wells Fargo did a study on this, and they saw that a Thanksgiving dinner for ten, if you bought the name brands, was $90, store brands was $73. So, there's savings there.

Also look at bundling your dinner. So, stores like Target are offering dinners for four for $20. And that's $5 less than last year. Also, Hy- Vee, which is a supermarket chain down in the south, they're also offering dinner for six people at $30. If you buy a ham with them, you get a free turkey. So, look for that.

BOLDUAN: Yummy.

YURKEVICH: Also, dessert, the most important part, my favorite part. The experts are saying that it's going to be more expensive this year because butter, sugar, and eggs are all up. But here's where my personal advice takes effect, don't skimp on dessert. One year someone did not bring pumpkin pie and all hell broke loose.

BERMAN: Yes, you cut guests before you cut dessert.

YURKEVICH: Absolutely.

BERMAN: All the guests if you have to before you cut the dessert.

YURKEVICH: Absolutely. So, the experts say, you know, find the discounts with dessert. I say do not.

BOLDUAN: Oh, my God, I love it.

Vanessa, it's great to see you. Thank you.

YURKEVICH: Good to see you guys.

BERMAN: Thank you all for being with us on this day. This has been CNN NEWS CENTRAL. "CNN NEWSROOM" is up next.

BOLDUAN: Can you say thankful?

BERMAN: Thank you. Thank you.

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