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Special Counsel Who Prosecuted Hunter Biden: No Evidence He was a Victim of Vindictive Prosecution; Trump Slams Biden's Decision to Pardon Son Hunter; Rep. Dan Goldman (D-NY) Discusses About President Biden Pardoning His Son Hunter; Protests in Georgia After Delay to Join EU; Syrian & Russian Jets Step Up Strikes on Rebel Forces. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired December 02, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:01:20]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: A controversial pardon with only seven weeks left in office, President Biden pardoning his son, Hunter. It's a decision that provokes anger from Republicans, dismay and criticism from Democrats, too.

And Americans are spending big this Cyber Monday. But if President- elect Trump carries out his threat of tariffs, many things could soon be more expensive. So we will look at prices that could spike and why you may want to change your holiday gift list.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: And glucose monitors are essential for people living with diabetes, but can they also help others live a better life? A CNN reporter wore one for six weeks to find out.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KEILAR: Some new details now on President Biden's decision to pardon his son, Hunter. We're told that by doing so, the President bypassed the Justice Department, even though he relied on the agency for every other act of clemency. Biden made the announcement yesterday, going back on a big promise that he made not to do it. And it means that Hunter will no longer be sentenced later this month on federal tax and gun convictions. And it spares him from any chance of going to prison, which was certainly a possibility. It also grants Hunter Biden clemency from other federal crimes that he may have committed during a 10-year period.

In a statement, Biden explained: "No reasonable person who looks at the facts of Hunter's cases can reach any other conclusion than Hunter was singled out only because he's my son - and that is wrong."

Here with us now, we have CNN Chief Legal Affairs Correspondent Paula Reid.

Paula, was this a surprise? PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: No, absolutely not. I've been covering Hunter Biden's legal issues for several years now, and there was no way that President Joe Biden was going to allow his only living son to go to federal prison for cases that Biden believes are, quote, "selective and unfair."

I was there for every day of Hunter Biden's Delaware case. Rows and rows of that courtroom were filled with Biden family members, including the First Lady. It was clear that they were there to support him. They felt that the case was unfair. And his lawyers thought there was a chance they could convince the jury of that as well.

We spoke to at least one juror who did ultimately convict Hunter. They said that they believe the case was, quote, "A waste of taxpayer money," but the prosecutors proved it beyond a reasonable doubt. But, of course, Hunter faced a second case in Los Angeles. And just hours before that trial was supposed to start, he entered a sort of unusual plea deal where he pleaded guilty to all the charges he faced.

He was looking at a possible sentence of up to 17 years in prison, hefty fines surpassing a million dollars. You don't enter a plea deal like that unless you are confident you are going to get some form of clemency. So this is only surprising to people who have not been paying attention to the facts of this case and the support Hunter has received from his family.

KEILAR: And David Weiss, who is a special counsel prosecuting Hunter Biden, has now reacted.

REID: That's right. In a filing, he's sort of firing back at some of the President's statements about the nature of the case. Here, Weiss is trying to defend his work. He says that, quote, "In announcing this pardon yesterday, President Biden said his son was selectively and unfairly prosecuted." But Weiss said there was, quote, "None and never has been any evidence of vindictive or selective prosecution in this case.

They also accurately point out that two judges previously rejected Hunter's claim that he was selectively prosecuted. This is significant because it's Weiss' first statement since these pardons were announced.

[15:05:02]

Not surprising that he is trying to defend his case and the work of his team.

KEILAR: Yes, certainly. Paula Reid, thank you for taking us through that. Boris?

SANCHEZ: President-elect Donald Trump, for his part, is seizing on President Biden's decision to pardon his son. And he's trying to equate it to those convicted of crimes from the January 6th attack on the Capitol. CNN's Kristen Holmes is live for us in West Palm Beach, Florida, not far from Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate.

Kristen, what are you hearing from inside Trump World today?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Boris, these two things are not equal, obviously. But Donald Trump and his team are seizing on this opportunity to kind of hammer home this idea that President Joe Biden said over and over again that he would not pardon his son, Hunter, that he would not get involved in this process. And then, of course, obviously, what we saw over the weekend transpired.

Now, Donald Trump is trying to link this in some way to those rioters on January 6th. This is what he posted: "Does the pardon given by Joe to Hunter include the J-6 Hostages, who have now been imprisoned for years? Such an abuse and miscarriage of Justice."

Unclear there if he's talking about the abuse and miscarriage of justice being the pardoning of Hunter or the people who are currently in jail for what they did on January 6th. But one thing to note here, it seems as though Donald Trump is going to try to use this pardoning as an excuse for whatever he does with those people who participated in January 6th. One thing to note, they are not hostages. The people who are in jail were people who were prosecuted to the law because of their actions.

However, Donald Trump has long promised that this was something he was going to do in terms of pardoning these people who participated in January 6th. So it's unsurprising if he actually does it. We're still trying to get details on what that looks like. But now it seems as though he's kind of saying tit for tat, which is not exactly what we had heard originally.

SANCHEZ: And Kristen, we're also hearing that there's been zero contact between the State Department and the Trump transition team.

HOLMES: Yes. This came from a spokesperson of the State Department who essentially said that after the Trump team signed this transition statement, this document that we've been waiting for them to sign, that there was still no conversation between the State Department and the Trump transition team.

What they have been expecting, this being the State Department, is that Trump's team would tell them who the agency review team was. They would appoint an agency review team. And that would be the team on the ground that kind of worked to make sure there was a smooth transition.

As of now, the State Department is saying essentially they don't even know, they don't believe that they've appointed this agency review team. And if they have, the agency review team has not reached out to the State Department. It's not that surprising, given what we have seen across the federal government, across the administration.

They took forever to sign this document in the first place and we have seen over and over again, essentially this kind of disregard for the traditional transition process. We'll be keeping close tabs on it, though, because we know that obviously some of this has to happen before Donald Trump takes office in order to ensure this transfer of power.

SANCHEZ: Kristen Holmes, live for us on West Palm Beach. Thank you so much. Brianna?

KEILAR: Let's talk about this now with Democratic congressman Dan Goldman of New York. He is on the Oversight and Accountability Committee. He was also lead counsel in Donald Trump's first impeachment trial, where Trump was accused of improperly pressuring Ukraine's president to open an investigation into Joe and Hunter Biden.

Congressman, first, your reaction to Biden's pardon of Hunter?

REP. DAN GOLDMAN (D-NY): Well, look, I - the one thing I certainly agree with is that this was an improperly politicized prosecution. Those two charges, as I know from 10 years as a prosecutor in the Department of Justice, are almost never, if ever, charged against a defendant in a standalone indictment.

And the reason why they were charged is because Republicans in Congress improperly tried to intervene in an ongoing prosecution to scuttle a plea agreement that Hunter Biden and David Weiss had entered into. The plea agreement was unusual because of Donald Trump's threats of retribution and Hunter Biden's understandable concern that if Donald Trump won, that his Department of Justice would come after Hunter for other crimes that he wasn't charged with but was investigated for.

So the President is exactly right that if not - if his name were Hunter Smith and not Hunter Biden, he would not be charged with this, and that that is not a proper outcome here. That's not a proper use of our rule of law. I wish the President had not stated after the plea agreement fell through that he would not pardon Hunter Biden, because it is discouraging that he has now gone back on his word on that.

But the merits of the pardon and the reasons for it are legitimate, especially as you look at who Donald Trump is nominating, people like Matt Gaetz, Pam Bondi, Kash Patel, all of whom have threatened retribution against Hunter Biden and others.

[15:10:05]

KEILAR: Okay. I mean, you went out on a limb backing up Biden when he said that there would not be a pardon in July of 2023, just after that plea deal fell through. This is what you said. I want to watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN KARL, ABC "THIS WEEK" ANCHOR: Do you think a pardon for his son would be a mistake?

GOLDMAN: Yes, and I don't think there's any chance that President Biden is going to do that, unlike his predecessor who pardoned all of his friends and anyone who had any access to him. And I think you see that in this case, where he kept on, and Merrick Garland kept on a Trump-appointed U.S. attorney to investigate the president's son.

If there is not an indication of the independence of the Department of Justice beyond that, I don't know what we could look for. (END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLDMAN: I mean, what does that feel like watching yourself back then reassuring people that Biden was not going to issue a pardon for his son?

GOLDMAN: Yes, and I think that if that plea agreement and that plea deal had gone through, there would be no pardon. That was a satisfactory outcome ...

KEILAR: It already fallen through.

GOLDMAN: ... that only - sorry?

KEILAR: The - when you reacted, this was when the deal had fallen through, and I hear what you're saying about ...

GOLDMAN: Yes, I don't ...

KEILAR: ... the Kash Patel appointment, but, you know, you took him at his word. So what does that feel like knowing that he's gone back on it?

GOLDMAN: Well, as I said, I'm disappointed that after the plea fell through and it became clear about why it did, including Republican congressional intervention in this case, which made this case very unique and very different from any other case, I think that we all, perhaps I should have as well, recognized that this is not the normal prosecution. I said many times that if Hunter Biden were not Hunter Biden, he would never be charged with these crimes.

And when you start to see what Donald Trump is planning to do with his Department of Justice and with his FBI and the degree to which Hunter Biden has already been shamelessly attacked as a private citizen by Republicans, I certainly understand why the President felt like this miscarriage of justice should not carry forward and that he should not be at risk of retributive prosecution for political reasons, which is not the proper way to execute our rule of law.

KEILAR: Do you think that President Biden's pardon of his son may actually put some pressure on some Senate Republicans who have concerns about Kash Patel being FBI director, that it may actually pressure them to confirm him?

GOLDMAN: I don't really see how one thing would have anything to do with the other. I find it pretty ironic and hypocritical that so many Republicans have seemed to find the rule of law (INAUDIBLE) to Joe Biden's pardoning of Hunter and are happily ignorant of the rule of law when it comes to Donald Trump and everything that he has done.

But Kash Patel is a danger because he's unqualified and because he is out for revenge on behalf of Donald Trump. And that is not who we should have leading what should be a nonpartisan, apolitical FBI that has a 10-year term for a reason so that it is not in line with the political process. So Kash Patel is a danger separate and apart from anything having to do with Hunter Biden's pardon. But it is yet another example of how Donald Trump is a danger to our rule of law and why Joe Biden felt compelled to pardon Hunter.

KEILAR: I guess, it - there's a question of - I mean, listen, the things you are alleging, a lot of people will agree with you on that. There are even some Republicans who may agree with your ideas there about Donald Trump, the norms that he's broken. And the question then becomes, do you respond to the breaking of norms by either breaking other norms or by breaking your promise, which is certainly in this case something Biden did. So what do you say to that?

GOLDMAN: Yes, and that's why I am - I don't think that - and you haven't heard me say that Joe Biden is justified in pardoning Hunter Biden because Donald Trump pardoned Roger Stone, who had incriminating information about him and Paul Manafort and Charlie Kushner and, you know, the list goes on.

[15:15:12]

That's not why it's okay, in my view, for Joe Biden to pardon Hunter.

KEILAR: So then to your point of what you said about Kash Patel or we've seen perhaps what Trump wants from his law enforcement arm, having picked Matt Gaetz. Obviously, that didn't work out for him. But then Pam Bondi, someone who's very loyal to him and whose independence has been questioned. Is it then your belief that the Justice Department - I mean, the law enforcement - the federal law enforcement, should Americans have faith in federal law enforcement now, because it seems that this decision has brought that into question.

GOLDMAN: I think what it brings it into question is the nominees that Donald Trump has put forward. Matt Gaetz, Pam Bondi, Kash Patel, Tulsi Gabbard, these are not people who are going to implement the rule of law. They are - they have been picked to weaponize the federal government against Donald Trump's enemies and his adversaries. And that is the risk to the rule of law. And that is why Joe Biden used his authority to protect his son.

KEILAR: So then let me extend what you're saying then ...

GOLDMAN: ... from the (INAUDIBLE) ...

KEILAR: ... and I hear your argument. Then it sounds like you're saying, yes, that Americans cannot have faith in federal law enforcement as it is implemented by these picks that Trump is making. I mean, is that a fair representation of your opinion on this?

GOLDMAN: I think - well, it's yet to be seen, and certainly I'm not going to put the cart before the horse. But based on the statements that people like Matt Gaetz, Pam Bondi, Kash Patel and Donald Trump himself have made over the last couple of years, they have been very explicit about their desire to weaponize the Department of Justice for their own political purposes.

I don't give a single bit of credit to this BS coming from Republicans that Joe Biden and the Biden administration has weaponized the Department of Justice. We had an entire subcommittee for two years on this, and they didn't show one example where there was any weaponization. This is projection and it is a distraction.

The reality is that Donald Trump tried to 10 times or more weaponize the Department of Justice in his first administration, and he is now putting loyalists in the critical positions at the Department of Justice who will absolutely weaponize it even more. So the risk we have is under a Trump presidency that of the Department of Justice being weaponized, not at all under a Biden administration. And we, including the media, cannot give any credit to that bogus argument.

KEILAR: Congressman Dan Goldman, we appreciate you joining us. Thank you so much.

GOLDMAN: Thank you.

KEILAR: And still to come, Syria's government is carrying out airstrikes on rebel positions after rebels overtook a significant amount of territory, including the country's second biggest city. How the violence could affect the entire region.

Plus, violent protests rock Georgia after the government suspends talks to join the European Union.

And later, why some are turning to over-the-counter glucose monitors to improve their health habits. We'll have that and much more coming up on CNN News Central.

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[15:23:04]

KEILAR: Violent clashes are spreading in cities across the country of Georgia as demonstrators protest against the government's decision to delay the country's bid to join the European Union.

Tensions have been rising for months in the former Soviet Republic as critics accused the government of adopting increasingly pro-Russian policies while turning away from the West. CNN's Seb Shukla is joining us now on this.

Seb, tell us how it got to this point.

SEBASTIAN SHUKLA, CNN PRODUCER: Well, Brianna, what we're seeing for the fifth night in a row now actually on the streets of Tbilisi are further protests and clashes between those protesters who are hurling fireworks at the police. But the response from the police is to fire tear gas and water cannon at them.

It was all started by the Georgian dream, the government of Georgia, saying on Thursday, last Thursday, that it wanted to pause its discussions on joining the European Union, something which is actually enshrined in Georgia's constitution. All of that resulted in the scenes that we are now seeing.

But what we've started to see within Georgian politics now is also a real fight and battle of wits and who will outlast this. The President of Georgia has said, who is outgoing and she finishes at the end of the year has said, I'm not going anywhere. And the EU has called for a - called the elections which are held in October unfair and not free in any way and called for a rerun.

All of this obviously taking place on the doorstep of Russia who were obviously watching what goes on in its former - in the former Soviet state very, very closely. I want to read you the statement from President Putin spokesperson that came this afternoon.

"We've seen similar events in a number of countries. Probably the most direct parallel is the events of Maidan in Ukraine. All signs are of attempting to carry out an Orange Revolution."

[15:25:10]

That is a reference to the 2004 revolution that took place in Ukraine that ended with the Supreme Court overturning a presidential election there in favor of a more pro-Western president, Viktor Yushchenko, against a pro-Putin president there in Viktor Yanukovych.

Brianna, it's a very testing and difficult time for Georgia, but the people, 80 percent of whom want to be become a part of the European Union are making their feelings known. Brianna?

KEILAR: These are live pictures that you're looking at here from Tbilisi, where you can see that people are gathered on the streets. There's a huge police presence.

Seb, thank you so much for the report. We'll continue to keep an eye on this. Boris?

SANCHEZ: Another intensifying situation we're following closely is unfolding right now in northern Syria. Syrian and Russian jets are stepping up airstrikes in the region, retaliation after Syrian rebels launched a surprise attack and seized control of large areas, including much of the country's second largest city of Aleppo.

Rescue workers inside northern Syria report that the government and Russian airstrikes have killed dozens of civilians, at least 44 by the latest count.

Let's discuss with Josh Rogin. He's a columnist for The Washington Post.

Josh, thanks so much for being with us.

It's kind of astounding, given that for the better part of the last decade, this conflict has been on ice.

JOSH ROGIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Fourteen years ago, the Syrian people protested for basic freedom, democracy and human rights. And 14 years ago, the Assad regime started bombing them. And 14 years later, they're still bombing them with their Russian friends.

Yet the Syrian people keep fighting and the circumstances have changed, the details have changed, but not their basic mission, which is to throw off the regime that's been bombing them and their families and their homes for 14 years. And what's happening today? They're trying to take back their homes and the Syrians and the Russians are bombing them again.

And, you know, this just shows you that whoever says Assad is the stable one, whoever says the Russians are going to bring peace to Syria, it's not going to happen because the Syrian people actually don't want to live on their knees.

SANCHEZ: How much is the timing of this related to some of Bashar al- Assad's allies in Russia and Iran being caught up in their own conflicts?

ROGIN: Sure. This is part of a geopolitical chess match. And what we see here is that most of these groups are supported by Turkey and Turkey's making a move against their other two actors, Russia and Iran.

Now, Turkey would like to put - have millions of Syrians go back to Syria. They won't go back under Assad because Assad's killing them all. They'd also like to actually get a deal with the Russians and the Iranians, but the Russians and Iranians aren't playing ball. So they made a move to take over territory with the guys that they have on their payroll and that's what they've done.

They've taken over a big part of Syria, and now the question is: Will the Assad regime be able to hold its ground? If not, will the Russians and the Iranians come to the table? And can we chart a future for Syria that is not just bombing and bombing and bombing? We don't know.

SANCHEZ: You also managed to speak with a source inside Aleppo earlier today. What did they share with you?

ROGIN: That's right. I spoke to the head bishop, the archbishop of Aleppo. His name is Hanna Jallouf. He's the top Catholic in all of Syria. And he said a couple of things. He said, listen, there's a lot of propaganda out there saying that the Islamists are going to take over Syria if Assad falls and they're going to kill all the minorities, including the Christians. Don't believe it, okay?

The rebels want a pluralistic Syria. And he said, we don't know what's going to happen after Assad, but there can be no peace in Syria until Assad is gone. And then let the Syrians figure out - figure it out. Give them a little bit of credit. Don't tell them that their only option is Assad, who's a psychopathic mass murderer, because that - it's insulting to them. Give them a little credit for what they can do to build a pluralistic country that has freedom and human rights after Assad leaves. But don't tell them they have to live under this mass murdering dictator.

SANCHEZ: You published an op-ed last year that was critical of the Biden administration for inaction, essentially not doing much when it comes to Syria. I wonder how you think the approach in an incoming Trump administration should be different.

ROGIN: Right. You know, the Biden administration had a theory that, oh, it's quiet, so therefore it's stable. And we didn't see large scale fighting, therefore, everything's fine. Well, that turned out to be totally wrong. It wasn't stable. And the quiet was just people getting bombed and so they couldn't speak up. And now they're speaking up.

And what the Trump administration has a chance to do is to reset that frame. And the way they can do that is by engaging with Turks, who are our allies, by the way, and confronting Iran. And we see that already. We see the Trump administration wants to confront Iran. Here's a good place to do it. You know, the Syrian regime is the friends of Hezbollah, friends of the Iranians.

And if you want to reduce the power of Hezbollah in Iran, it would be good to support the Syrian people's struggle for freedom and dignity. I don't know if that's what they're going to do, but they have a chance to do that in just a few weeks.

SANCHEZ: How do you think his nomination of Tulsi Gabbard as director of national intelligence, not tied immediately to foreign policy, but nevertheless, a member of his cabinet, someone who's been effusive in praise of Bashar al-Assad?

[15:30:07]

ROGIN: Right.

SANCHEZ: How does she play a role?

ROGIN: It's a complicating factor, to be sure ...