Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Trump Team Considers Replacing Hegseth With DeSantis; Soon: Justices Hear Arguments In Tennessee Transgender Case; California Man Accused Of Helping North Korea With Plot Against South Korea. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired December 04, 2024 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:30:20]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Pete Hegseth's nomination to be the next defense secretary -- it's in trouble. It is clear that his past and what he did and didn't tell the Trump administration about it is a problem. And since Trump announced his plans to nominate the former Fox News anchor a bunch of past allegations have surfaced of drunken misbehavior, sexual misconduct, and financial mismanagement of the veteran's nonprofit that he once ran.

CNN's Harry Enten has the numbers on how much has changed for that man and how fast it has changed for him. How have things shifted over the last weeks?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: I mean, oh my.

BOLDUAN: Wow.

ENTEN: The chance that Pete Hegseth is confirmed --

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Whoa!

ENTEN: -- as the defense secretary -- you look. Three weeks ago -- John Berman very surprised by these stats -- he had an 83 percent chance per the betting markets tumbling down -- a drop of more than 70 percentage points. Holy Toledo. Twelve percent now.

I mean, Matt Gaetz, when he steps aside still had more than a 30 percent chance --

BOLDUAN: Oh, really?

ENTEN: -- of becoming the next attorney general.

BOLDUAN: Oh, wow.

ENTEN: This is just 12 percent. This is the type of odds when you really think that it would take a minor miracle -- a mini Hail Mary to, in fact, be confirmed by the United States Senate. The bottom line is this. The betters very down on Pete Hegseth. You

could do it in any language you want to do it. You could do oy, no bueno, no good -- this 12 percent. Could it happen? Yeah, maybe, but chances are this dude is not going to get confirmed as the next defense secretary.

BOLDUAN: And just so you guys know, he does not rehearse that kind of -- the kind of Mishegoss nonsense that he offers beforehand.

ENTEN: No.

BOLDUAN: Just so you know.

ENTEN: No.

BOLDUAN: Talk to me about -- let's look -- let's look historical.

ENTEN: Yeah.

BOLDUAN: How often do secretaries of defense fail their confirmations?

ENTEN: Yeah. I mean, it does happen, right? And I should note, no -- none of this -- none of this is scripted except for the slides themselves. None of what I say here is scripted. I like being off the cuff, just like going to mind just --

BOLDUAN: We can tell.

ENTEN: -- early in the morning.

Failed defense secretary nominations -- I mean, look, John Tower got rejected back in 1989, right? He went to the Senate and they voted him down. You've got Inman in 1994 who withdrew. And then just recently Shanahan in 2019. That was just five years ago, right? He withdrew as well.

So the bottom line is Pete Hegseth -- obviously, we don't know what's going to happen. The betters think that he's going to fail or withdraw his name, and there is a history of that happening. Just because you get nominated it doesn't mean you get -- you're going to get confirmed. There are at least three examples in just the last 35 years of people who were nominated and, in fact, did not end up becoming confirmed by the United States Senate.

BOLDUAN: So if Hegseth's nomination doesn't go through -- if it fails, if he withdraws, or he goes to confirmation and he doesn't get confirmed, what is the appetite -- what's the view right now on a recess appointment if Trump wants to go that route?

ENTEN: Yeah, right. Like, if he knows that Pete Hegseth is going to fail in the United States Senate or believes that he will, you know, this whole -- this whole idea oh maybe we could these recess appointments -- there just really isn't the appetite for that among the American public. How should Trump's picks take the position? Seventy-five percent -- the vast majority believe that there should, in fact, be a Senate confirmation. Just 25 percent believe that these folks should get into the cabinet via recess appointments.

So the bottom line is yes, there was all that talk of oh, maybe we'll bypass the normal process and we'll do a recess appointment. There just isn't that type of appetite either from Republicans in the United States Senate and certainly not from the American public. These folks are going to have to get confirmed by the Senate; otherwise, I think that there will be some real outrage from the regular voters.

BOLDUAN: Let's let -- let's leave it at that because John will need to -- John will be interested --

ENTEN: Yeah.

BOLDUAN: -- in that one --

ENTEN: Yeah.

BOLDUAN: -- for sure.

All right, Harry. Thank you so much.

ENTEN: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: John.

BERMAN: Twelve percent.

All right, with us now, Chuck Rocha, a Democratic strategist and former senior adviser for Bernie Sanders' 2016 and 2020 presidential campaigns. And Madison Gesiotto, political strategist and Trump 2020 board member.

Chuck, is this the last day of the Pete Hegseth nomination?

CHUCK ROCHA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER FOR BERNIE SANDERS' 2016 AND 2020 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGNS, CO-HOST, "THE LATINO VOTE" PODCAST, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, SOLIDARITY STRATEGIES: I think it is. I think that Harry's numbers are true, and I share your excitement about oh my God, that's a really low number. You can talk about all the Hail Mary's you want. And when you lose your momma, even if it was 2018, it's a bad sign for any nominee.

BERMAN: It's not excitement. I just -- that's a stunning shift from 83 percent to 12 percent three weeks ago to now.

And Madison, I want to read you a tweet from Marc Caputo, who is a Florida man, writes for The Bulwark. He's been at the center of the reporting on this the last 24 hours. And he writes on Twitter, "Hard to see: DeSantis leaving office two years early to work under Trump. Easy to see: Trump is looking for a Hegseth DOD replacement. It doesn't mean Hegseth is done or that DeSantis would get the nod, but when Trump floats other names, it's a sign of trouble for his picks." And talk about a float. I mean, the last 12 hours -- if you were up all night you saw the DeSantis name everywhere, Madison.

MADISON GESIOTTO, POLITICAL STRATEGIST, TRUMP 2020 BOARD MEMBER (via Skype): Yeah, it's been interesting, I mean even over just the past few days to see this shift. Senator Wicker, for example, confidently saying that Pete Hegseth was going to get confirmed and now being very cautious with his words.

[07:35:05]

And so when you can only afford to lose three senators' votes I think it would be very difficult to move forward unless they're very, very confident they have the votes. Right now, I'm hearing that as many as six senators were leaning towards not moving forward with Hegseth.

So I think it's a matter of time today. He'll be doing that Fox News interview, which obviously will be critical. He does deserve a chance to explain himself. But when you're wanting to become secretary of the Department of Defense there's a lot of questions, I think that need to be answered.

And the senators, of course -- Joni Ernst being one of them and another name being floated as a replacement -- has a lot of questions. She's the first female combat veteran to serve in the United States Senate and a sexual assault survivor herself.

So I think a lot of people are going to be looking at her, at DeSantis, at Hagerty this week to see who potentially becomes a replacement if Pete Hegseth doesn't move forward as the nominee.

BERMAN: You said you think it's just a matter of time for Hegseth also?

GESIOTTO: I don't think it's looking good. I'm not saying that it's a done deal but over the past 24 hours I think there's been a lot of comments made by senators and what I'm hearing from the inside from staffers in -- you know, in the Senate. They feel concerned that the votes just won't be there.

BERMAN: At least let me ask you one more question on this matter. Like, there's the DeSantis name being floated. At least on social media a lot of Republicans seem excited about that. Now, I don't know if it's -- the Trump family is excited given that the sort of strange bad blood that's existed in the last year, but a lot of people in Republican circles seem excited about DeSantis.

GESIOTTO: Yeah, despite his failed campaign for the presidency I think many, many Republicans are huge DeSantis fans still. So I think they'd be very excited to see him as a replacement. But again, that depends on if Pete Hegseth doesn't continue forward as the nominee.

And if he does, I think it's all going to hinge on that background check -- whether -- you know, by the FBI or someone else. A lot of senators saying also that they want to make sure that is an FBI background check. I think Kennedy came out and said that and maybe some others saying that behind closed doors that they want the FBI to dig into some of these allegations, specifically during his team at some of the veterans' organizations.

BERMAN: Yeah, and we don't know that Hegseth would agree to an FBI background check. That isn't a guarantee as part of this agreement that the Trump team has signed.

All right, Chuck, I will tell you what I thought of --

GESIOTTO: But I am hearing, John --

BERMAN: Go ahead.

GESIOTTO: -- that they are going to be putting forward everyone's names as they move forward. I'm hearing that it will be not just one or two people being FBI checked. That they're probably going to put forward everybody.

BERMAN: All right. Well, that would -- that would be an interesting development and a bit of a shift.

Chuck, the thing that I thought of when the DeSantis name was being floated was Mitt Romney 2016. I mean, people will remember that after Donald Trump won the White House the first time there has been a lot of bad blood between Trump and Mitt Romney.

Trump brought Mitt Romney up to New York. They went out to dinner at Jean-Georges. There it is -- that romantic dinner at Jean-Georges. Trump brought him out there. There's Reince Priebus. I don't know what the appetizer was -- a little amuse-bouche.

But ultimately, Trump did not pick Mitt Romney. And Chuck, a lot of people saw it actually as Trump world trolling Mitt Romney. You know, dangling the possibility and then pulling the football away like Lucy.

So what's the possibility that's happening this time with Ron DeSantis?

ROCHA: There's no doubt that Donald Trump don't like DeSantis. People can say all they want. What you've been seeing on the internet are regular Republicans who like him -- who there's a -- he got a lot of votes in the primary. He's a very popular governor of Florida.

But let's be clear. Donald Trump don't normally come back to folks like that and give them jobs. I think the senator from Tennessee probably has a better shot if Hegseth don't make it.

And just to be clear for everybody watching, I don't think there has to be all these FBI checks to see if somebody's qualified. I think a pretty simple Google search would tell you that Pete Hegseth, in my opinion, is not qualified.

And now one thing that everybody needs to keep in mind is that these senators are elected to six-year terms for a reason. That means if there's a lot of them who Donald Trump can't threaten because they're not up for election in two years. They're not up for election in four years. They're not -- many of them -- 33 percent of them to be exact -- are not up for six years. That's why we set up the Senate this way so they would have less political pressure for instances just like this.

BERMAN: Do you think DeSantis would want the job, Chuck -- very quick answer?

ROCHA: No. I think he has other plans. But I don't think he'd want the job.

BERMAN: All right. Well, we will see. I don't know if there'd be anyone left in Florida after that.

Chuck Rocha, Madison Gesiotto, thank you so much for being with us -- appreciate it -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: Also very soon the Supreme Court will take up what is considered the marquee case or the entire term right now. Justices will hear arguments challenging a Tennessee law. That law bans medical providers from prescribing puberty-delaying medication and more for transgender minors. It's also the first time a known transgender lawyer will argue before the Supreme Court.

Now, the Biden administration, which is arguing against the ban, is speaking for the transgender challengers of the law. Lawyers for Tennessee argue that the ban is constitutional because the law was a reasonable legislative response to a contested medical -- to contested medical evidence.

Let's get to it. A lot at stake, we know, today.

[07:40:00]

Joining me right now is James Esseks, co-director of the ACLU's LGBTQ and HIV Project, working alongside the ACLU attorney who will be arguing before the justices against the ban in court today. James, thanks for coming in.

Can you describe -- there's a lot of -- we could get into --

JAMES ESSEKS, CO-DIRECTOR, ACLU LESBIAN GAY BISEXUAL TRANSGENDER QUEER AND HIV PROJECT: Good morning.

BOLDUAN: -- the constitutionality, which for some gets into the weeds and can be confusing. But I think most importantly is to get your view on what is at stake in this case.

ESSEKS: Well, what Tennessee has done here is it's made it impossible for families to get access to medical care that their transgender children need and that their doctors have prescribed. The health care at issue here is health care that every major medical association in the entire country agrees is safe, and is effective, and is medically necessary for some transgender adolescents.

And so what we have here is families that have decided after much deliberation and discussions with their doctors to provide this health care to their kids. And they've seen incredible changes in their kids. They've seen their kids thrive.

And Tennessee comes in and says you know what, we don't care that the doctors say this is medically necessary. We don't care that the parents say this is important and effective care for their children. We don't care that the adolescents say this is who I am, and I want to have this care. Tennessee says we're the government and we know better. You can't have it.

That's just not right.

BOLDUAN: I mean, and to your point, we do hear from families saying this has saved lives -- is what this kind of medical treatment has provided their family.

ESSEKS: Indeed.

BOLDUAN: Though the lower court just below this -- the appeals court ruled in favor of the state -- and I know you know this but for everyone out there -- and in doing so said that the law was a reasonable legislative move.

And here is a little bit of what was said in that decision. "The unsettled, developing, in truth still experimental, nature of treatments in this area surely permits more than one policy approach," Judge Sutton wrote in the majority opinion -- "and the Constitution does not favor one over the other."

How do you argue against that today?

ESSEKS: Well, this is not just regulation of medical care; this is the state drawing a line based on sex. And so what's going on here is this 50 years of precedent from the United States Supreme Court that says that when the government treats people differently based on whether you're male or female the government has to have a very good reason for doing that.

That's the right standard that the lower court should have applied. It's not the standard that the court of appeals applied. And the whole legal question here is, is this sex discrimination or not? And we think it's crystal clear that it is because whether you get access to this care or not under Tennessee's law depends completely what your sex assigned at birth was.

BOLDUAN: Given the majority opinion -- the Alito majority opinion in Dobbs and how that has been brought up in this, how closely will you be listening to his line of questioning today?

ESSEKS: Well, yes. One of the things that the lower court -- the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals' opinion did was take the Dobbs opinion, which overruled Roe versus Wade, and extended it to the context -- from the context of abortion to the context of gender- affirming medical care.

We think that is a very dangerous extension of the Dobbs precedent. The Dobbs precedent by itself -- the court said hey, this is just about abortion -- don't worry. And here we see lower courts extending that to other contexts. We don't think it applies and we're going to be interested to see what the court has to say about that today.

BOLDUAN: The timing of this offers something of a complication that I'm interested in your take on. The background for everyone is the court's decision to take this up and take up only the administration's -- the Biden administration's case on this -- the more -- I'll say more narrow just for everyone's argument -- not the case that the families had put up.

That's created a complication, which is the government will almost certainly be switching sides in terms of their view on this issue and case after Donald Trump takes office in January. This will likely be given -- we'll see a decision on this maybe in June.

How does that impact the case?

ESSEKS: Well, obviously, it's going to be up to the court to decide what to do, but I think that the court can, and I expect that it will keep the case. Because even if the federal government switches sides, which we expect is likely to happen in January, there is still a controversy here between the private plaintiffs who brought the case in the first place -- the families whose children's health care is at risk here. They're on one side and the state of Tennessee is on the other side. There's still a fight here -- a controversy for the court to resolve. I expect that it will.

[07:45:00]

BOLDUAN: Yeah.

And James, just to note for everyone, arguing the case before the court today is your co-director at the ACLU's LGBTQ and HIV Project, Chase Strangio. He's a -- will be the first known transgender lawyer to argue before the Supreme Court. This is a very big day for you on many levels -- all of you at the ACLU.

Thanks for coming on. Let's see what happens today -- John.

ESSEKS: Thank you.

BERMAN: All right, the latest in the search for a grandmother believed to have fallen into a deep sinkhole.

And Elon Musk may have some competition for the role of first best friend/billionaire. New reporting that Mark Zuckerberg wants an active role in crafting policy for President-elect Trump.

(COMMERCIAL)

[07:50:26]

BOLDUAN: A California man is in custody this morning accused of plotting with North Korea for a "surprise attack" against South Korea. Investigators say the man bought firearms in Texas and transported to the Port of Long Beach in California where he allegedly shipped the weapons out.

CNN's Josh Campbell is tracking this and picks the story up from here. And Josh, what are you learning?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is like something out of spy thriller, Kate. You have a young man who is coming to the U.S. to study. The FBI says that he was actually working with the North Korean regime to obtain prohibited items such as weapons and ammunition, and sophisticated military technology.

I'll read you from the criminal complaint against 41-year-old Shengua Wen. They say that Wen "believed the North Korean government wanted the weapons, ammunition, and other military-related equipment to prepare for an attack against South Korea and military uniforms, which would subsequently be used by the North Korean military to disguise their soldiers to conduct a surprise attack on South Korea."

Now, describing how this scheme worked the authorities allege that the suspect set up a front company in Texas where he procured ammunition, where he procured weapons, and then brought them to the Port of Long Beach here where I am near Los Angeles for shipment over to North Korea, often disguised in containers that had false manifests such as one item labeled a refrigerator, for example.

Now, authorities spoke about the scheme and what they actually uncovered. I'll show you some of the pictures -- what they got from his residence as well as from his cell phone. They say that they got over 50,000 rounds of ammunition. They obtained a sophisticated device for chemical detection as well as another type of device that detects listening devices in a particular area -- all that prohibited to be sent over to North Korea.

Now, authorities held a press conference yesterday. They described this scheme and what they think the results of this investigation actually led to. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AKIL DAVIS, FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR IN CHARGE OF L.A. FIELD OFFICE: Not only did the investigative team prevent additional restricted items from going to the North Korean regime, but they gathered valuable intelligence for the United States and all of our allies. This case is a success for the United States and no doubt dealt a significant blow to the North Korean government.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMPBELL: And as far as how the suspect got on the government's radar, we're learning that it was a tip from the public -- someone who sells this type of technology who said something is wrong here with what this guy is trying to purchase. That person contacted law enforcement and then we see the results of this investigation.

It's worth pointing out we have reached out trying to obtain Wen's attorney information for comment. Authorities say that if convicted of violating U.S. export control laws, Kate, he could face up to 20 years in federal prison.

BOLDUAN: Josh, thanks for putting it all together for us. I really appreciate it -- John.

BERMAN: All right. This morning we have new reporting on how Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg is trying to cozy up to Donald Trump and take an "active role" -- that's a quote -- in the president-elect's tech policy.

CNN Business writer Clare Duffy is with us. So how exactly does Zuckerberg want to play here?

CLARE DUFFY, CNN BUSINESS WRITER: Yeah, John, it's sort of vague at this point but we know that Zuckerberg was in Mar-a-Lago meeting with Trump. And then on Monday Meta's global president of public affairs said that Mark is really keen to play an active role in the debates that any administration needs to have about maintaining America's leadership in the technological sphere.

They also said yesterday that Meta has sort of admitted that it had over moderated content during the election which, of course, plays right into this narrative that Trump and other Republicans have spread that big tech is censoring them.

Now, it's not totally surprising that Zuckerberg would seek to play some role in these tech policy discussions. There are a lot of big decisions that the Trump administration is going to need to make that will be really relevant to Meta. For example, whether and how to regulate artificial intelligence, which this company is hoping to be a leader in. And as you hear in that Clegg quote there, Meta also thinks that AI is going to play a big real -- really big role in geopolitics.

But, of course, Trump is not a totally typical president. He's been really critical of big tech in the past, including of Meta and of Zuckerberg.

And just this summer he made this sort of veiled threat -- or I should say not so veiled threat to throw Mark Zuckerberg in prison. I want to pull up a quote from his book that was published over the summer where he again sort of suggests that Zuckerberg was meddling in the last election and then says that if he does so again in this upcoming -- this past election that he would throw Zuckerberg in prison.

Now, Mark Zuckerberg may not have much of a choice as to whether or not to engage with this administration. Again, there's going to be big decisions for them to make in the tech policy space.

[07:55:00]

And Zuckerberg is not the only big tech leader who is trying to cozy up to Trump. We know that flattery is the strategy that works when it comes to getting what you want from Trump. So it'll be interesting to see what more of a role Zuckerberg seeks to play here.

BERMAN: What role does Elon Musk play in all of this? Obviously, Musk and Zuckerberg have their own relationship. They almost fought once in a battle that literally no one wanted to see.

DUFFY: Yeah, it's interesting. What we understand is that Musk is playing sort of a guardrail role in terms of who has access to Trump from the tech space.

And Musk and Zuckerberg have had this sort of fraught relationship. As you said, Musk offered to fight Zuckerberg in a cage fight. That never really materialized.

But Musk has been really critical of Zuckerberg and of Meta in the past of their content moderation policy. So some of what you're seeing from Meta where they're sort of talking about wanting to walk back content moderation and admitting that they made mistakes in that space may not be only an effort to sort of win over Trump but also Musk, who we know sort of has the closest connection to Trump at this point.

BERMAN: All right, Clare Duffy. Thank you so much for sharing your reporting on this -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: So a race for a city council came down to a game of drawing straws for the California city of Galt. Two council candidates -- you see them there and how it turned out. Two council candidates deadlocked with the exact same number of votes at the end of their campaigns.

So the city had to activate a tie-breaker plan that they had approved earlier in the year. Drawing straws was chosen as the most cost effective and time effective option. A special election, they say, could have cost upwards of $165,000 and those plastic straws probably cost about 10 cents.

The only rule here is the longest straw wins. And after drawing straws, candidate Mathew Pratton beat out Bonnie Rodriguez for the city council seat.

Rescue crews in Pennsylvania -- they have been working through the night searching for a missing grandmother who may have fallen into a 30-foot sinkhole. She was out looking for her cat and police say that 64-year-old Elizabeth Pollard -- she was last heard from Monday when she left her home with her 5-year-old granddaughter with her in search of the cat. Authorities then discovered Pollard's car parked near a restaurant -- her granddaughter still inside the car, and a deep sinkhole just steps away.

Officials so far -- say that so far, monitoring equipment -- look how big that hole is -- monitoring equipment has not found -- picked up any sound from the sinkhole but they have seen a shoe on a search camera.

And there's also this. Some folks in Oklahoma are definitely going to be getting some coal in their stocking this year after a tradition of airdropping toy paratroopers for kids turned messy and frankly, disappointing. A U.S. Army veteran known as "The Flying Santa" has been spreading holiday cheer this way by dropping these paratroopers -- these toys -- for the past four years.

But as this -- at this year's event a crowd of about 100 people gathered and you can see what played out. Adults were seen in video pushing children out of the way and diving for the toys themselves.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pushing little kids out of the way, you know, stealing this -- this little toy. Stealing it from them. That's not what this is supposed to be about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Um, there's not much to say after that other than I guess there's a lesson to learn there, John, which is don't be a jerk.

BERMAN: The paratroopers are really cool.

BOLDUAN: They are cool for a kid.

BERMAN: OK. I mean --

This morning word that Cyber Monday did not just smash records; it blew them to smithereens. It was the biggest online shopping day ever in the United States. Consumers spent $50.8 million every 60 seconds. The grand total by the day's end was more than $13 billion.

CNN's Vanessa Yurkevich is here now. You said this was going to be big. It was even bigger.

VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: It was. Analysts were forecasting a record spending day in the U.S., and we got it with Cyber Monday. More than $13 billion spent -- $15.8 million, as you said, every minute in those two hours of key shopping, 8:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m.

People came out. They were looking for the deals. They were trying to get the deals in electronics. And Cyber Monday is essentially the last call for the steepest deals that we're going to see this season.

But if you look at it as share of growth year-to-year, actually Cyber Monday had the smallest share of growth. The biggest shopping days in terms of growth were Thanksgiving, and then it was Black Friday, and then it was Cyber Monday.

On average, Americans spent about $235 this five-day shopping weekend. That's about a quarter of what we're expecting all Americans to spend over the holiday season. About $900 roughly is what they're projecting.

What I thought was really interesting about what we got from this report from Abode was that social media influencers had such a big presence in terms of converting people scrolling on the internet to actually buying something. They contributed about 20 percent in revenue.