Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Interview With Sen. Bill Hagerty (R-TN); Supreme Court Hears Case on Transgender Rights; Gunman Kills UnitedHealthcare CEO. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired December 04, 2024 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:01:05]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Breaking news: a manhunt under way in New York City after a gunman shot and killed the CEO of UnitedHealthcare outside a Manhattan hotel. Police say this was a targeted attack. The latest on the search for the suspect is just ahead.

Plus: The Supreme Court hears arguments in the highest-profile case of the term, a challenge to a Tennessee law banning puberty blockers and hormone treatments for transgender minors. Ahead, what this case could mean for trans rights nationwide.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN HOST: And a defiant Pete Hegseth saying he will -- quote -- "never back down," despite what appears to be quite a rocky road to confirmation for president-elect Trump's pick for defense secretary.

We are following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KEILAR: Hello. I'm Brianna Keilar in Washington, alongside Phil Mattingly, in for Boris today.

And, right now, investigators are on the hunt for a gunman in New York City, a man suspected of fatally shooting the CEO of UnitedHealthcare. This happened this morning just outside the New York Hilton in Midtown Manhattan. And officials say Brian Thompson was on his way to UnitedHealthcare's annual conference when a masked gunman about 20 feet from the city opened fire and shot him multiple times with what police say appears to be a gun with a silencer.

MATTINGLY: Now, we're going to show you photos of that suspect.

Officials say he took off on foot before hopping on a city bike. With holiday festivities under way, investigators are making it very clear this was not a random attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JESSICA TISCH, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: At this time, every indication is that this was a premeditated, preplanned, targeted attack. Millions of people will be enjoying the tree lighting tonight, among other holiday events. And the NYPD will be out there with them keeping them safe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: CNN's Shimon Prokupecz is live near the NYPD headquarters with more details.

Shimon, this case is astonishing on some level. What more are we learning as the investigation continues to kick into gear?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, SENIOR CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Now, it truly is, Phil, when you think about where this happened, really in the heart of Manhattan just about an hour -- over an hour before the CEO was scheduled to attend this investment conference at the New York Hilton.

And police say the gunman was just waiting, lying in wait for the CEO. It all unfolded early this morning at around 6:40 a.m., when the gunman first gets to the scene, and just minutes later, opened fire on the CEO in what police say was essentially an assassination.

The chief of detectives here at the NYPD just a short time ago described how some of the events unfolded. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSEPH KENNY, NYPD CHIEF OF DETECTIVES: The shooter steps onto the sidewalk from behind the car. He ignores numerous other pedestrians, approaches the victim from behind and shoots him in the back.

The shooter then walks toward the victim and continues to shoot. It appears that the gun malfunctions, as he clears the jam and begins to fire again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PROKUPECZ: And so that gun jamming is a really important clue for law enforcement.

They say that the fact that the gunman was able to clear the jam in the 9-millimeter weapon indicates that the individual has some proficiency in weapons. And so that's another reason why they think that this was a -- really someone who knew what they were doing, planned to be here, had this man in his sight, and then, when he saw the individual, fired the weapon and essentially assassinated him.

Now, police have a lot of things to work with. They have that e-bike. It's a city bike that's run by a program here in New York City. People will be familiar with them. They're across cities all over the United States.

[13:05:08]

There is a GPS tracking device on that bike. And so police are waiting for information that GPS device. What they say is that they do have video of the gunman. They have photos of the gunman. And so they have those clues. And they know exactly where the gunman went into Central Park, just blocks from the shooting area.

And, at that point, they lose the individual on video, but they are looking for more video. Another thing that they have been able to obtain, and they're waiting to see if it's connected to the gunman, is a cell phone. They are working through the cell phone to try and get information to see if it's connected to the shooter.

So they have a lot of things to work with here and a lot of things that they still need to investigate. But I can tell you that I spoke to investigators, sources, just a short time ago, and they are confident they're going to be able to identify this individual. They are just working through everything at this point and really trying to figure out the motive here.

KEILAR: Yes, huge question. Shimon, thank you so much.

And we should mention we are looking at live pictures here of the scene where you can see the police presence as they're investigating this.

We have CNN senior law enforcement analyst Charles Ramsey with us now. He's a former Washington, D.C., police chief and former Philadelphia police commissioner.

Charles, investigators, you have heard what they're saying, that this was a targeted shooting. The gunman was masked in cold weather, waited outside of the hotel, opened fire from about 20 feet away from behind the UnitedHealthcare CEO, fled through an alleyway, cleared the gun very quickly.

What does this say to you about what kind of killing this was?

CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, it does begin to sound like it was targeted. I mean, he was standing there for a period of time. Multiple people went by, that if he just wanted to do a random shooting, he certainly would have had the opportunity to do it.

The victim was across the street at his hotel coming across to the Hilton for the conference. After he passed the gunman, the gunman opened fire. So this does sound like it was targeted, it was planned. The individual fled on foot, then got on an e-bike and left, went in the Central Park.

So he had an escape route all planned out as well. So, this certainly doesn't sound like some random shooting that took place. The question is, why? Is this something that was a beef with that individual, or is it an issue with the insurance company, and he's taking it out on the CEO?

We just don't know the answer to that. But the priority right now is going to be to locate this individual. And they do have some things to work with now that's going to help them perhaps narrow things down to identify the person who committed the crime. MATTINGLY: Charles, during the news conference, law enforcement

officials made very clear it was early on in an investigation. They were sparing no expense in terms of resources to try and find this individual.

I was struck by two things. And Brianna and Shimon both mentioned it, one, the proficiency with weapons that they perceived by his ability to clear a jam. But also there were questions about the potential use of a silencer. What does that tell you, based on your experience with just gun crimes generally?

RAMSEY: Well, they were reluctant to actually say it was a suppressor or a silencer. But when you look at the photos, something clearly seems like it's extended from the barrel. So it could very well be a silencer.

The fact that he was able to clear a jam very quickly does show a level of proficiency with a firearm. But he also left behind some evidence. I mean, you have three shell casings and three live rounds. They will be testing that for fingerprints, for touch DNA. So they have got things to work with right now that hopefully will lead them to the individual responsible for this.

KEILAR: Talk about the -- there's the GPS on the bike, which is obviously interesting. There's the fact that there are so many cameras in Manhattan.

But this individual did go, Charles, to Central Park, where I think you would expect that there are fewer cameras. How is that going to play into figuring out who this was?

RAMSEY: Well, I imagine there are fewer cameras in the park.

But the e-bike with the GPS, they will be able to actually track the route once they get that information. And they may have to subpoena it. Sure they got it on a fast-track to try to get it to find out exactly where that individual went once they got into the park, where they emerged from the park.

They may have very well gotten into a vehicle and drove off. Maybe they stayed on the bike for a period of time. We just don't know. But the GPS will help them in terms of tracking them in areas where they may not have access to cameras. But, again, you have got business cameras. You have got NYPD cameras. Buses have cameras. Some cabs have cameras.

I mean, you have got cameras all over. And so they will be piecing that together. And that's on the back end. They're also going to try to backtrack from the time he's first picked up on a camera to go backwards to see how he got to the location.

[13:10:07]

(CROSSTALK)

MATTINGLY: I apologize. We got to cut you off really quick because, at this moment, Pete Hegseth, the nominee to be secretary of defense, is speaking on Capitol Hill.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

PETE HEGSETH, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY NOMINEE: ... edifying and a wonderful process to go through and meet with senators and talk to them, especially members of the Senate Armed Services Committee, whose passion is the Defense Department, and our war fighters, to hear what they want to do, to make sure that department is properly oriented for the threats of the world and make sure that we're putting the war fighters first.

That's what Donald Trump asked me to do. Your job is to bring a war fighting ethos back to the Pentagon. Your job is to make sure that it's lethality, lethality, lethality. Everything else is gone. Everything else that distracts from that shouldn't be happening.

That's the message I'm hearing from senators in that advise-and- consent process. It's been a wonderful process. As far as everything else, I had a chance to sit down with Megyn Kelly today for an hour. I refer you to that interview. She asked probably all the questions you guys would like to ask.

(CROSSTALK)

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Will you commit to not drinking on the job to do the job?

KEILAR: I'm sure that we can think of a few more questions to ask Pete Hegseth to fact-check that.

I do want to bring in our Manu Raju, who we just heard there in the hallway, trying to get a question into Pete Hegseth.

Manu, this is a high-stakes appearance for Hegseth. And he's really trying to get out there in front of the cameras.

RAJU: Yes, that's right.

And, look, this is a public effort beyond just the private behind-the- scenes push to try to get Republicans in line. There are a lot of Republicans who do have concerns about all the reports that they have, all of the misconduct allegations that have come out over the last several weeks.

And there are more than three. Remember, he can only lose -- afford to lose these three Republican senators in the new Senate in order to get the job and be confirmed as the next secretary of defense. There are more than three Republicans who have concerns. Whether they actually vote no, that's another question, but they're at least more that have concerns.

So he has some work to do. And as you can hear here this is all part of this new effort to try to go out publicly, contend that he -- these allegations are all false in his telling and tell senators that he can actually do the do the job. The question is, do the Republican senators agree with that? He just

met moments ago with Senate -- the incoming Senate majority leader, John Thune, about all of this. And we expect a critical meeting this afternoon with him and Senator Joni Ernst. She is a member. She's a Republican who's served in combat, somebody who's actually a victim of sexual assault and someone who's pushed to change how sexual assault claims have -- dealt with throughout the Pentagon.

And, of course, Hegseth has been accused of sexual assault, something that he has denied, but Ernst has been pointedly not taking a position about whether she would support Hegseth, but has said that she would have a thorough conversation with him and frank conversations with him when he meets later today.

How does she deal with what Hegseth has been saying privately and publicly? Will she come on board? And will the other Republican skeptics as well, people who are uncertain if they will back him, like Senator Susan Collins of Maine, Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, other Republicans, will they fall in line?

And the ultimate question here too, Brianna, is whether or not Donald Trump continues to stand behind him. Hegseth has been telling reporters all day that Trump has his back, is still behind him, and he spoke to Donald Trump before coming to the Capitol. The question is, how long does Trump have his back?

And will these misconduct allegations ultimately become too much of a distraction and force him to bow out? That is what a lot of people on both sides of the aisle are watching here as Hegseth is making the rounds and trying to make the appeal that he should get the job.

MATTINGLY: Yes, such a notable and clear shift in strategy, publicly fighting back today, even taking -- well, not taking questions, making statements to folks like Manu Raju, avoiding questions from folks like Manu Raju.

We will see if it works out. Certainly seemed like it was teetering last night.

Manu Raju for us live on Capitol Hill, thanks so much.

Well, the Supreme Court is now weighing the fate of a blockbuster case involving transgender rights. At the center is whether it's constitutional for Tennessee to ban children and teens from receiving gender-affirming care, which can include treatments like puberty blockers and hormone therapy.

KEILAR: Oral arguments wrapped up here a short time ago with lawyers for the Biden administration making the case that the law is a form of sex discrimination, while Tennessee said lawmakers are justified in denying medical care for people under 18.

And a ruling here could have significant implications across the country as well. You have more than half of U.S. states adopting similar laws banning gender-affirming care.

With us now is CNN chief Supreme Court analyst Joan Biskupic, who was in court today.

What stood out to you, Joan?

JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SENIOR SUPREME COURT ANALYST: Sure.

It was just a very gripping two-and-a-half-hours of oral argument, very compelling from both sides. And I will get to the bottom line, but I also want to give you a couple of examples. There was real conservative momentum on behalf of Tennessee. It looks like they're going to have a majority to uphold this Tennessee law and say that it is not sex discrimination to block this kind of gender-affirming treatment.

[13:15:08]

I can explain a little bit about where the justices and the majority were, but I also want to mention right at the start the kind of anger and frustration that became evident from the three liberal justices when they could feel the whole thing moving in the opposite direction.

For the justices who really want to vote with Tennessee, it seemed like what concerned them most is the fact that judges and justices shouldn't be making this decision. It's something that should be left to the legislative process. Justice Alito really complained a lot about what kinds of studies really show that this might be beneficial.

He tried to poke holes in the Biden administration and the ACLU lawyers' cases about how this could help people. But let me -- let's see if we can hear from Chief Justice John Roberts and what he said about how they might not really be up to the task of looking at this kind of medical treatment.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

JOHN ROBERTS, CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE U.S. SUPREME COURT: Here, it seems to me that the medical issues are much more heavily involved than in many of the cases that you look to.

Of course, we are not the best situated to address issues like that, unlike in like Morales and Craig v. Boren and some of the other ones, where it doesn't strike me that they're intensely affected by medical considerations.

And if that's true, doesn't that make a stronger case for us to leave those determinations to the legislative bodies, rather than try to determine them for ourselves?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BISKUPIC: Yes, and I have to say, that was the tone from the others on the right-wing throughout. Justice Kavanaugh at one point said, well, who decides? Should it really be us deciding?

I will tell you the one person we did not hear from at all during that entire two-and-a-half-hour period was Neil Gorsuch. And it's important because Neil Gorsuch was the author of the one decision that the justices have already issued on transgender rights. And in that case involving a statutory protection, not the Constitution as is issued -- at issue here, he wrote the opinion that said that, in the workplace, transgender people should be protected from discrimination because it is based on sex.

But he said nothing to either side. And, obviously, it might not matter what he thinks because it looked like there was a sure majority to, as I say, vote for Tennessee. Some of the concerns that came from the liberals is just, what's going to happen to some people who were already getting this treatment in Tennessee and not be able to complete the treatment?

And Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, the first African-American woman on the court, did raise the question of, what about for all kinds of discrimination, all kinds of violations of the Equal Protection Clause? Are we going to be going backwards in that? So, very gripping.

MATTINGLY: Yes, it was -- to your point, it was a fascinating argument to listen to from all sides to see where this is going to land. Got some time before we see where it's going to land.

BISKUPIC: Yes. Watch in June.

MATTINGLY: But that's why we have Joan Biskupic.

BISKUPIC: In June.

MATTINGLY: Joan, thanks so much, as always.

BISKUPIC: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Let's turn now to CNN's Lucy Kafanov live outside the Supreme Court, where demonstrators gathered today ahead of those oral arguments.

Lucy, what was it like there in this really monumental moment as it unfolded?

LUCY KAFANOV, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Such a critical court case and so much energy here on (OFF-MIKE) from the Supreme Court.

There's a small, but vocal opposition group here who's been protesting transgender, gender-affirming care, and then a much larger, much more colorful, louder group of people (OFF-MIKE) this kind of gender- affirming care, care for the children.

And one thing I really want to emphasize, there's a lot of conversations being had about transgender people. We are not hearing enough from the individuals who are affected. And we have been spending, our cameras have been spending time with several families who traveled all the way from Arizona to have their voices heard.

These are not professional activists. They're normal kids, normal parents. They're taking time off work, off school to be here in order to have their voices be counted. And I spoke to one young girl, Violet DuMont, who's been open about

being a transgender child. Here is how she felt being surrounded by all of these supporters here today. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's honestly quite emotional and hearing, like, the echo of the opposing kind of side be drowned out by cheers and music and voices of love and affirmation for Violet. Like, it's so powerful.

KAFANOV: Violet, what does it feel like to be here finally?

VIOLET DUMONT, TRANSGENDER YOUTH: It feels really good. I love how those mean people are just -- like, they're not being heard by anybody and being ignored.

And I feel really glad to be here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAFANOV: These families say they feel like their rights are being eroded, and, regardless of how the Supreme Court rules, they will continue to be active, to continue organizing in their communities to help other families who are facing the same struggles as them -- back to you.

[13:20:13]

KEILAR: All right, Lucy Kafanov, live for us from outside the court, thank you.

We have much more to come on this story. We will be speaking to Montana's first openly transgender state legislator, Zooey Zephyr.

And also ahead, more on president-elect Trump's pick for defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth. You heard him just moments ago on the Hill. He's not backing down, certainly not giving up. We will be speaking with a Republican senator about the future of Hegseth's nomination fight.

MATTINGLY: And later: It was a record-breaking Cyber Monday. We will tell you what is on everyone's hot list this holiday season.

You're watching CNN NEWS CENTRAL. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:25:13]

MATTINGLY: Just a few moments ago, we heard from president-elect Trump's embattled pick for secretary of defense, Pete Hegseth, telling reporters on Capitol Hill he's not giving up, even as we are seeing names floated to potentially replace him, names including Florida Governor Ron DeSantis. Senator Bill Hagerty of Tennessee joins me now, a Republican, member

of that Republican Conference, that some of them have been meeting, including you, I believe, sir, with Pete Hegseth, weighing where this is going to go.

Senator, I want to start with something that my colleague Manu Raju, reporting that he just sent in from Josh Hawley, your colleague from Missouri, who said he's not 100 percent sure -- that it's not 100 percent clear who Trump wants as secretary of defense right now.

That was striking to me. Hawley made very clear he would support who the president wants to be the secretary of defense. The president has made a nominee or has told you who he's going to nominate. Do you think it's not clear who he wants to be SecDef?

SEN. BILL HAGERTY (R-TN): No, I think it's very clear, Phil.

And Pete spoke with President Trump this morning. And President Trump again indicated his support. I have been behind Pete from the very beginning. He's actually been using my office as a base as he meets with other senators.

And he's done a very good job. It's a process of advice and consent. He's stepping through this. And he's taking a tremendous amount of incoming pressure for very obvious reasons. He's here to change the Pentagon. He's here to put the Pentagon back on a mission of lethality, getting away from pronouns and social experiments, and fixing a broken procurement system.

We have got a retention crisis that's terrible. We have got a recruitment crisis that's terrible. And an inspirational leader like Pete is just the person to fix this.

MATTINGLY: Senator, I know this isn't a place most potential nominees or potential replacements in this case would want to weigh in publicly, but you can't avoid the fact your name is mentioned in a lot of the stories over the course of the last 24 hours.

There are people in the Trump transition operation who think very highly of you, would love to have you inside that administration come January 20. Has anybody reached out to you to talk to you about secretary of defense if Hegseth does not make it through?

HAGERTY: No, Phil.

And I think everybody needs to remain focused on the fact that Pete is the person that President Trump has designated. And I certainly support him 100 percent. And I think the Republican Conference will, as they have their opportunity to get to meet Pete and get past a lot of the allegations that are in the media to the truth.

And that is that Pete is a very highly qualified leader, very bright, intelligent. And he's somebody that's going to inspire the rank and file there in the Pentagon, as well as our troops on the ground, that they have got a true leader in place. MATTINGLY: It appears today there's been a shift in strategy, coming

out and trying to fight back, as Pete Hegseth said, in his interview with Megyn Kelly earlier today. His mother was also on TV this morning...

HAGERTY: Yes.

MATTINGLY: ... said she regrets sending an e-mail in 2018 to Hegseth accusing him of mistreating women. She urged senators, especially female senators, to judge Pete Hegseth for who he is today.

Has Penelope Hegseth's appearance quelled any of the concerns that some of your colleagues have stated publicly?

HAGERTY: Well, I'd say this. I was just with Pete meeting with a large group of House members.

And he had an ovation that was resounding. I think that Pete is -- as people get to know him, again, as people get to see his deliberation, his deliberate stance on trying to repair the Pentagon, try to fix our recruiting crisis, our retention crisis, I think people are overwhelmingly supportive of him.

And I think that's going to continue to move in the right direction. The momentum is with Pete right now.

MATTINGLY: To that point, what do you attribute kind of the burst of stories or reports over the course of the last 12 to 15 hours -- not made up, I mean, they were coming from people inside the Trump operation -- that seemed very concerned, were floating other names.

Governor Ron DeSantis was coming out as a potential replacement. Why do you think that's happening?

HAGERTY: I think it's totally not constructive. And I think what everybody needs to do is get behind President Trump's nominee. And I think we need to move this thing forward as quickly and as expeditiously as we can, because we need to be ready for President Trump to hit the ground with the TV wants on day one.

MATTINGLY: The attorney general picked, the initial one, Matt Gaetz, withdrew from consideration. Pam Bondi seems to have widespread support, the replacement selection.

HAGERTY: Yes.

MATTINGLY: The president-elect's first choice to lead the DEA dropped out yesterday. The drama around Pete Hegseth has swirled since his selection.

That's in addition to some other controversial picks that seem to be doing OK right now inside the conference. I guess the question is from a vetting perspective. You are a veteran of how things are supposed to work. Are you concerned that the vetting wasn't expansive and thorough enough?

HAGERTY: No, I'm not concerned at all.

Again, I know Pete. He's my constituent. I have known him for years. I think he's going to be an inspirational leader. And I think what we have seen is what happens here in Washington. It seems to be very popular to go on the offensive, to go on the attack to anybody that -- against anybody that President Trump might nominate.

The reason for that is, President Trump wants to disrupt Washington. He wants to see real change take place. So, inertia is the most powerful force in the universe. It's happening right here in Washington too. That's why we're seeing all this resistance. Washington doesn't want to change. President Trump was elected to do just that.

MATTINGLY: Senator Bill Hagerty of Tennessee, thanks so much, sir. Appreciate it.

HAGERTY: Thank you, Phil. Thank you.