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Urgent Search For Gunman Who Killed CEO In "Targeted" NYC Attack; Supreme Court Appears Likely To Back Tennessee Law Banning Gender-Affirming Care For Minors; Syrian Army Withdraws From Hama After Rebels Enter City. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired December 05, 2024 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[07:30:10]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: This morning new clues in the hunt to catch a killer on the run in New York City. The search is now just over 24 hours in, and police are asking for the public's help in finding this man -- the man they suspect -- they believe gunned down the UnitedHealthcare CEO in what investigators consider a targeted attack and then disappeared into Central Park.

Now this morning, ABC News is also reporting this detail that "deny, defend, and depose" were found on shell casings at the scene.

A cellphone and a water bottle were also discovered. But at this hour it's unclear if police know his name or his identity or have a clear lead on where he could be at the moment.

With me right now to talk more about this search and where it heads is bounty hunter Zeke Unger. He also works with the U.S. Marshal's Service often on fugitive matters. It's good to see you, Zeke. Thank you for coming in.

So from -- let's start with the security footage

ZEKE UNGER, BOUNTY HUNTER, LIAISON TO U.S. MARSHALS (via Webex by Cisco): Thanks for having me.

BOLDUAN: -- that's been released -- the images that have been put out of what -- of the incident as it happened, and also in that Starbucks afterward.

What sticks out to you as most useful, and also what is missing here?

UNGER: Well, I think what's very useful is the fact that this is not a professional killer -- a contract killer -- his mannerisms and by the failure of the weapon. I think when you start looking at all of the video footage and you see the malfunction of the weapon with the noise suppression unit causing a major malfunction, this is not the sign of a hired killer. I believe that the individual, by looking at the footage, is -- has some psychological issues. That this is a revenge shooting. If you look at the homicide investigation and the totality of the circumstances, you can see that they say he was laying in wait. I don't believe that because in order to do that you have to have prior information as to where the target is going to be and at what particular time. I think he was followed, and I have a feeling that the individual had a revenge issue with the healthcare industry or maybe a prior employed, but definitely some psych issues in this case.

BOLDUAN: On this one -- so did some -- so this is kind of one of these questions as this hunt continues is was this a professional hitman or not? Some say they believe how quickly he fixed the issue when he - when he had the problem with the gun showed that he had a lot of knowledge and experience with the weapon. You think otherwise.

Why does this matter? Why is this significant --

UNGER: Correct.

BOLDUAN: -- and impacts how you go about this search for him?

UNGER: Sure. Well, normally, contract killers as a whole know their weapon very well. This is the first time that weapon was used with a noise suppression. The weapon -- when that happens the weapon needs to be modified. The ejection ports need to be modified.

And the reason it stove-piped so many times is because the weapon had never been fired with that particular suppression unit causing the jam. And a sophisticated would have put many rounds out of the weapon before using it. The type of clearing a jam is taught within the first hour of learning how to use a semiautomatic weapon.

This individual is getting way too much credit.

BOLDUAN: It's so interesting.

Zeke, now we're, like, just over 24 hours of -- after the shooting happened and after he went on the run.

How do you track him down? How does the search change if it's 24 hours and he's been on the run?

UNGER: Well, the first thing, too, is a professional does not leave DNA behind. Clearly, by the shell casings being left you can tell that this is a revenge shooting.

So the U.S. Marshal's Service, who are the best at what they do, have some alleged DNA that they're going to be working with maybe to identify the suspect. And once we identify the suspect, we'll be able to now put out the BOLO (be on the lookout), show the picture of the defendant -- excuse me, the suspect, and move forward in the investigation.

Cell phone information -- whether or not they can get into the cell phone. Whether the cell phone company is going to be willing to cooperate on this matter. This is all things that we have to see.

BOLDUAN: You have said that this is a difficult case. What makes this unique in its challenges?

UNGER: Well, the fact that we don't know -- a lot of times when we're dealing with fugitive cases, we know who the fugitives are -- prison break, situations like that. As of right now we haven't ID'd the suspect yet.

[07:35:00]

So building the information is the first part. Disseminating the information to the general public will be the second part. And then looking at cell phone records or any other information will be vital in the apprehension of this fugitive.

BOLDUAN: When -- the reporting -- and you kind of are alluding to it, too. This reporting from ABC News that the words "deny, defend, depose" were found on shell casings that were seen at -- were -- that were at the scene, some people see a connection to those words and the health care industry specifically. Those words being used by critics of the industry to describe what they believe are the unfair practices of the health care industry.

If this is a --

UNGER: Right.

BOLDUAN: -- revenge -- if this is a grudge. If this is a revenge killing, how does it help direct the search to try to identify this person?

UNGER: Sometimes there may be internet trails. Sometimes there's phone records. It all depends. Each case you have to look at the totality and go in that direction so you're not chasing a red herring. You can easily be taken in the wrong direction, and you need to stay focused.

I'm sure that the Marshal's Service is not letting out information that they already have. I think this one's going to take a little bit longer than normal just because we don't know the -- who the -- who the actual shooter is.

BOLDUAN: Zeke Unger, thank you so much.

UNGER: My question would be --

BOLDUAN: Oh, go ahead. Go ahead.

UNGER: I was just wondering why a CEO of a major company would be walking down the street alone without a protection team. It seems very odd to me.

BOLDUAN: Yeah.

Zeke, thank you so much -- John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: So this morning, Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy head to Capitol Hill to discuss their plans to slash government spending. Also on the Hill and hanging in the balance, Pete Hegseth, President-elect Trump's pick for defense secretary who survived another night, at least for now.

CNN's Lauren Fox is with us with the very latest. She is on Capitol Hill. Nice to see you there, Lauren. So what do we expect today?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: Well, John, it was a huge day yesterday for Pete Hegseth as he met some of the maybe hardest members to convince on the Senate Armed Services Committee.

One of these key meetings happened yesterday with Sen. Joni Ernst, a Republican from Iowa, who divulged very little about the contents of her meeting with Hegseth, telling reporters over and over again that it was a thorough discussion.

But I also spoke late last night with the senator from North Dakota, Kevin Cramer, who made clear that at this point after his meeting with Hegseth, which spanned more than an hour John, he does feel like he could be on a path to voting affirmatively for his nomination.

Here is what he said they talked about in that meeting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. KEVIN CRAMER (R-ND): The drinking thing is a pretty significant issue -- whether you have a problem or don't have a problem, or you think you have a problem or you think you don't have problem. And he said my commitment is to not touch alcohol while I have this position.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOX: And Kevin Cramer said that during the course of their conversation he made clear to Pete Hegseth that as the Defense Department head you need to be ready to take calls at three in the morning. And Pete Hegseth said back to him, essentially, that three in the morning, three in the afternoon, and every minute in between he would be prepared to take those phone calls. Obviously, a really important role for national security.

He meets again with lawmakers on Capitol Hill. This is just part of making the rounds and getting some of those commitments.

I would not though that I did ask Republican whip Sen. John Thune, who will be the next Republican leader -- he had a meeting with Hegseth yesterday -- if he was ready to back him -- and repeatedly I asked throughout the day. John Thune made clear that he is just going through this process and he confirmed to Hegseth that he would have a fair process throughout this confirmation battle -- John.

BERMAN: All right, Lauren Fox up on Capitol Hill. Thank you very much.

With us now, Christy Setzer, a Democratic strategist and former spokesperson for Al Gore's presidential campaign. And Matt Gorman, Republican strategist and former senior adviser for Tim Scott's presidential campaign. On the last episode of CNN NEWS CENTRAL I asked our guests -- this was

yesterday -- if it was going to be the last day of the Pete Hegseth nomination and yesterday, they thought yes. Well, obviously that was wrong. He has survived a full 24 hours longer.

So is he on the path now to confirmation, Christy?

CHRISTY SETZER, PRESIDENT, NEW HEIGHTS COMMUNICATIONS, FORMER SPOKEPERSON FOR AL GORE PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST (via Webex by Cisco): No, he's not. Even if this takes until Friday or Saturday, or early next week, that does not mean that he is any closer.

Look, it's not just the drinking issue though that has been the focus of a lot of our conversation; it's also the fact that he has rank inexperience. It is the fact that even his own mother said he's kind of a bad guy to women.

[07:40:00]

And that's before you even get to the policy concerns, which are the fact that the statements that he's made about not wanting to see women in frontline combat positions, which one would imagine is probably pretty irksome to someone like Joni Ernst, right?

Look, I think that there are a number of Republican senators who are ready to vote against this guy, and I don't think he's going to want it to get to that. So I think you're going to see him pull his nomination over the course of the next few days.

BERMAN: Matt, the promise to quit drinking if he's confirmed was a hell of a statement -- I mean, just on its face. It's not the type of thing you usually hear from someone trying to be a major cabinet secretary.

MATT GORMAN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER FOR TIM SCOTT'S PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN (via Webex by Cisco): Sure. And look, I think the game where this could be the day, now this could be the day -- look, the reality is this, right? If he can get through, say, the next 48 hours without, kind of, another major story dropping, that's a step in the right direction certainly.

But then as we get to next week the two most important meetings -- Lisa Murkowski, Susan Collins, right? Those are two of the -- kind of the prime swing votes for any cabinet nomination. So you combine them with Joni Ernst. Those are going to be the ones I'm watching most closely.

Now, stepping back a little bit, with some of these nominees there is strength in numbers because who were we talking about five days ago? It was all about Kash Patel. So when you have a couple of these nominees, whether it's Tulsi or RFK, you divide the scrutiny. You divide the media attention and some of the outside money coming in where last time around it was really only Betsy DeVos that got a lot of that outside attention. So maybe Senate Republicans will sink maybe one, maybe none -- but

there's no way now with all of this you're sinking, say, a third of the cabinet -- four or five of these nominees. No way.

BERMAN: No. And again, I would be -- the framing of it, like sinking the nomination when you're dealing with nominees like Matt Gaetz and the questions surrounding Pete Hegseth from Republicans and Democrats, it may not be an affirmative sinking of a nomination. It may be people who actually have legitimate questions about that nomination. We've been hearing those questions from Republicans over the last few days, including those who have met with Hegseth.

I'm still curious 24 hours later, Christy, about the effect of the float -- the very public float of Ron DeSantis as possible replacement for Pete Hegseth. It just seemed so deliberate from the Trump team and --

SETZER: That's right. That -- yeah.

BERMAN: And then to have DeSantis not deny it. How could it not have an impact?

SETZER: That's right. That was the moment that I thought oh, this is over. Once the Trump team is officially floating alternatives that means that they know it's done. And the fact that frankly, much like the situation with Matt Gaetz versus Pam Bondi, the person that they are promoting or floating as an alternative is someone who does have more experience and does answer some of the questions that one would have about Pete Hegseth.

So I think they know, and this is just a ticking timebomb and it's going to go off at any -- any day now.

BERMAN: Yeah. I mean, the flow to DeSantis, Matt, it made me think for Republicans and frankly even some Democrats looking at this saying you know what, this is someone they would say who is just a better pick. Like, you can have someone with all the same views who is just a better pick, so why not?

GORMAN: Look, I think we should be careful on DeSantis. I think we should pump the brakes just a bit. As I understand there's still no love lost, I think, between the DeSantis and Trump teams especially.

So one name I'm watching very closely is Bridge Colby -- Elbridge Colby. I think he could be someone who could step into that breach who's well respected certainly among the Republicans but also could probably get some Democratic votes.

And look, I think it goes to the point too -- and you talked about kind of the DOGE thing before -- where it's the state of the resistance is really very different from the first time around where you have John Fetterman, Mark Kelly willing to vote for Ron DeSantis as a cabinet nomination, where in 2016 --

SETZER: No.

GORMAN: -- 2017 these were downward leaning (PH) Democratic no's all the way around.

BERMAN: Again, I get it, although the resistance here in this case to Pete Hegseth has been the likes, maybe, of Lindsey Graham and Kevin Cramer -- not exactly liberal bomb throwers there.

Christy, I want to ask you about reporting that came out in Axios just before we came to air. And the gist of it was Democrats are really pissed at Joe Biden, and it had a bunch of reasons why and a bunch of different levels of anger.

One quote from the Axios article, "Some Democrats tell us they're so furious about Biden's abrupt, clumsy pardon of his son Hunter that they're threatening to withhold donations from his future presidential library."

I guess my just open-ended question to you is how upset are Democrats at Biden right now just -- not just for the Hunter thing but Axios points out for not leaving the presidential race a lot earlier?

SETZER: Yeah. I mean, I think that's what we would call misplaced anger, right? I don't think they're really mad about the Hunter Biden pardon and if they are I think those people don't understand what we are up against in the incoming Trump administration.

[07:45:05]

I do believe that people are angry at Joe Biden for not getting out of the race sooner but ultimately, I don't know that would have made a difference. You know, we've talked about this on air before, which is the fact that there was just this global anti-incumbency movement that had been happening not just here but in many countries around the globe.

So you can be mad at Joe Biden, but I have to think that that's not really what you're mad about. We're mad about the situation that we are presented with right now with the second Trump term and no levers of government.

BERMAN: Not disputing though that Democrats are angry at somebody, wherever that anger is placed?

SETZER: Right, right, yeah. I -- that's exactly right.

You know, look, I think that it's interesting people can believe that Kamala Harris ran a great campaign and that she did everything that she possibly could have done. But again, at the end of the day I don't believe that even if Joe Biden had gotten out let's say six months sooner that she was going to be able to turn around what in some places was an eight-point swing to the right. Look at New Jersey where it only ended up being a five- or six-point margin, right? Those were really hard mountains to climb.

BERMAN: New York was closer than Texas.

All right, Matt Gorman, Christy Setzer. Thanks to both of you. Thanks so much for being with us -- Kate. BOLDUAN: So, two boys, five and six years old, are in critical condition this morning after a shooting at their school in California. There's new detail on why police think that the gunman may have targeted the Christian school -- what the motive was behind that.

And there's also new information this morning about the search for the missing grandmother who fell into a sinkhole.

We'll be right back.

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[07:51:25]

BOLDUAN: In what could be the Supreme Court's biggest case of the term, the conservative majority on the high court appears inclined to uphold a Tennessee law that bans gender-affirming health care for minors. Now, the law prohibits medical providers from giving puberty blockers and hormone therapy to transgender kids.

The Biden administration was arguing the case for the transgender kids and their families in court yesterday and told the justices the law violated the Constitution by denying equal protection to transgender people, primarily by discriminating against them based on sex.

The state's lawyers argued in court that the law was passed for medical purposes having to do with age primarily, not sex.

Chief Justice John Roberts and conservative Justice Brett Kavanaugh -- they raised a broader question on whether they are the right people to be deciding this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS, U.S. SUPREME COURT: My understanding is that the Constitution leaves that question to the people's representatives, rather than to nine people, none of whom is a doctor.

JUSTICE BRETT KAVANAUGH, U.S. SUPREME COURT: The Constitution doesn't take sides. If there are strong, forceful, scientific policy arguments on both sides in a situation like this, why isn't it best to leave it to the democratic process?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: And joining us right now is the attorney general of Tennessee, Jonathan Skrmetti. Thank you so much for coming in. I really appreciate your time.

How are you feeling about the chances -- your chances with this case coming out of oral arguments yesterday?

JONATHAN SKRMETTI, TENNESSEE ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, you never want to speculate as to what the court is going to do. You know, there will be months while they review this and put the opinions together. But we put on a good case yesterday and I think we have some strong arguments on our side.

Ultimately, I think the chief justice -- the point that you just played on the clip is an important one, and that is we live in a government of the people and ultimately, the people decide what the law should be. And the more the courts interfere with the policymaking process the less healthy our democracy is. We need to be continually working on our self-government. So I think that's a really important component of this case.

But the other issue is there is a huge scientific dispute here. Every systematic analysis of the research shows minimal to no benefit to kids from these procedures, and the risks are huge. So there's a lot of enthusiasm on both sides of the argument.

But we've seen countries in Europe with different values than Tennessee reach the same conclusion and severely restrict access to these treatments for kids.

BOLDUAN: There is definitely a debate over that -- over the medical evidence, and that is part of this discussion. And we saw that playing out in court, for sure.

I want to read for you something -- and you I'm sure will remember this moment -- that Justice Elena Kagan said challenging the Tennessee solicitor general's contention that the ban arose from medical concerns distinct from any classification based on sex, which is the central question here.

Here is what Kagan said. "The prohibited purpose here is treating gender dysphoria, which is to say that the prohibited purpose is something about whether or not one is identifying with one's own sex or another. The whole thing is imbued with sex," she says. "You might have reasons for thinking that it's an inappropriate (sic) -- it's an appropriate regulation but it's a dodge to say that this is not based on sex, it's based on medical purpose, when the medical purpose is utterly and entirely about sex."

To that you say what?

[07:55:00]

SKRMETTI: Well, it's just a fundamental fact that boys and girls have different bodies. They react differently to different hormone treatments. And so if you want to protect kids from these cross-sex hormones you necessarily have to use a different -- you have to protect against a different drug on one side versus a different drug on the other side.

If you give a boy with a testosterone deficiency testosterone, you're solving a medical issue. If you give a girl testosterone to deal with gender dysphoria -- a psychological condition -- you are creating additional medical complications.

And so the fact that sex is involved is only because every human being is one of two sexes, and it's necessarily part of it. But that shouldn't mean that we're constitutionally unable to protect kids from these treatments. It's the treatments that are the issue, not the kid's sex.

BOLDUAN: Attorney General, what was not squarely at issue with this specific appeal before the justices right now is parental rights.

Do you think parents should have the right to make medical decisions for their children?

SKRMETTI: I think to some extent parents should. I think parents have a huge role to play in their kids' lives, but the government also has a role to play to regulate the medical profession. And if the evidence is showing significant harm with minimal benefit the government does have a role in ensuring that kids are safe.

Now, this is a very contentious issue. The court did not take up the parental rights issue and I think it would have substantially complicated the arguments because it's a whole other very complex issue to address.

But, you know, there's -- there is significant evidence of real harm. The research has been manipulated. I don't know that parents are getting accurate information necessarily about the risks involved and about the benefits. And in situations like that the government has a role to play to protect its citizens, especially its young citizens.

BOLDUAN: The reason I raised it is because there is another appeal out there asking the court to consider whether parents should have the right to make -- to make these medical decisions for their kids.

So, similar question, different framing as you -- as you know. Would you like to see the high court take up that question regardless of what they do with this case when it comes to transgender procedures and issues?

SKRMETTI: The Supreme Court has a lot going on. You know, this is such a relatively new area just overall. We've seen an explosion of cases dealing with gender identity. We've seen an explosion of kids being treated for gender identity disorders. And, you know, I think --

BOLDUAN: Well, and that's why this question of fundamental parental rights when it comes to medical decisions is a fundamental one.

SKRMETTI: Well, I mean, I think we need to resolve the equal protection question before we move on to anything else because that suffuses so many of these legal issues, and there's no clarity for the lower courts.

BOLDUAN: That is certain. There's no clarity right now, for sure.

Attorney General, thank you for coming in. I appreciate your time -- John.

BERMAN: All right. This morning, two kindergarteners, just five and six years old, are in critical condition after a man shot them at their school in California. Authorities say they found the gunman dead at the scene from a self-inflicted gunshot wound. Investigators say he may have targeted the school because it is affiliated with the Seventh-Day Adventists Church.

One student describes actually seeing him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STUDENT; FEATHER RIVER SCHOOL OF SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS: We were running to the gym. I looked back and I saw a shadow with a gun, so I told most people to run even faster. My face had a cold expression but inside I was breaking down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Oh, poor girl.

Police say the shooter was there for a meeting about enrolling a family member, but they're trying to figure out if that was just a ruse to get inside.

The search for a missing grandmother in a sinkhole in Pennsylvania is now a recovery mission. Authorities say they have seen no signs of life as they try to find 64-year-old Elizabeth Pollard. They believe she fell in earlier this week as she was looking for her cat -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: Oh, that's so sad.

We're also following some breaking news we want to bring to you. Intense fighting by rebels has forced the Syrian military to withdraw from the city of Hama. Is the second setback for Syria's President Bashar al-Assad. Quite a time we are watching -- something that I would think a lot of people would say they would not expect as this war has gone on for so many years.

CNN's Ben Wedeman joining us now with much more on this. Ben, tell us what's happening.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So the city of Hama has fallen to the rebels. This happened just within the last few hours whereby the government simply said they're pulling out of the city after an intense assault by those rebels.

Now, Hama is the fourth-largest city in Syria. Aleppo, which the rebels took over on Friday, is the second-largest city in Syria. So in the -- in the space of a week, the rebels have made massive gains, and it doesn't seem that the regime of Bashar al-Assad is really able to stop this rebel advance.