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DNA Testing Underway On Water Bottle Left at Scene; NYPD: Police Believe Person Of Interest In CEO Shooting Left NYC; Trump Posts New Show Of Support For Defense Pick Hegseth; Rep. Jake Auchincloss (D-MA) Discusses About Pete Hegseth's Nomination As Defense Secretary; Jury In Subway Chokehold Trial Again Says It Is Deadlocked. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired December 06, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:00:34]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: A bottle of water and a flirtatious exchange, the new clues that may help investigators track down whoever shot and killed a health insurance CEO on the streets of New York.

KAYLA TAUSCHE, CNN HOST: Plus, President-elect Donald Trump publicly rallying around his pick for Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth, as his confirmation chance is dim. Ahead, the new instructions the Trump administration is giving his transition team on how to handle the controversies surrounding Hegseth.

And nearly two years, five continents, and more than a billion dollars later, the end of the Eras. And I know what you're thinking, is it over now? But listen, you need to calm down. We'll tell you what Taylor Swift is planning after her tour that this show knows all too well.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KEILAR: The clock is running in the search for the suspect in Wednesday's killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. We're told a possible key new clue was discovered at the crime scene. Detectives finding DNA on a water bottle and a cell phone, and testing is now underway.

A law enforcement official also tells CNN police are trying to find more images of the suspect as they use facial recognition software to help identify him. CNN's Omar Jimenez is with us now on this.

Omar, I want to talk a little bit about this possible DNA evidence. I do also want to note that our Shimon Prokupecz was just interviewing NYPD and they believe that the suspect has left the city. So that's an interesting new detail that we are learning.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so that interview is ongoing right now. We're going to bring you a lot more of those details as we get them in. Again, it would be the first time we're hearing from New York police top brass sort of since their initial press conference in the aftermath of this. But then as far as what we do know outside of that so far, we know the medical examiner's office has now begun testing or at least has - is testing possible DNA evidence in the killing of this UnitedHealthcare CEO.

And that evidence would come from a water bottle found at the scene that investigators believe this shooter may have sipped from leading up to this. Also, a cell phone was found at the scene as well. They're also looking for potential touch DNA that they could pull from it on top of that. So that's the DNA aspect of it.

But another thing that we're learning as well, of course, is around the path to New York City for this shooter. Now, we know he arrived 10 days before the shooting, as a law enforcement source tells CNN. But another aspect of it is that we believe he arrived by bus, a bus route that originated in Atlanta. And that's where the bus originated. It's unclear where exactly the suspect may have boarded the bus. But interestingly, we are hearing from the Atlanta Police Department that said that they heard from the NYPD in the afternoon of December 6th today and that they are now assisting with whatever the New York Police Department might need.

You see some of the timeline there. When this person arrived in New York, they checked into a hostel in the Upper West Side of Manhattan, stayed for a few days, checked out, came back and then stayed for the few days leading up to the actual shooting. And that all goes into the question of who this person was - is and what they might be doing.

You see this picture here as well. The New York Police Department put this out as a person of interest they want for questioning. This was taken at the same hostel, though, where they believe the suspect was staying over the course of this. And you see the mask down, smiling right there.

Law enforcement believe based on interviews they've done, that was a moment where this person was literally flirting with the clerk at the front desk there and that was why that mask was down. It could end up being one of the more significant clues in this case, Brianna.

KEILAR: Yes, it's certainly a clear shot of the person's face.

Omar, thank you for the latest there.

We've also seen just a flood of frustration on social media following the killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson, actually mainly aimed at the health industry, healthcare industry, health insurance industry itself. Let's watch this.

[15:05:03]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Of course, I would have been happy to send my condolences after the UnitedHealthcare CEO was killed this afternoon. However, unfortunately, sympathy requires a prior authorization, and I have to deny that request. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They also denied my son his AFOs, ankle foot orthotics, because he did have a stroke, so half of his body doesn't work the same as the other half, and he needs those to walk. They denied him because he grew too fast. They said, he just had some five months ago. I was like, yes, and then he grew because he was two years old, and two-year-olds tend to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: CNN's Clare Duffy is with us now.

Clare, I think normally you have an instance like this. We do not see some of what we are seeing on social media. There is a lot of frustration that has come to the surface, even in the midst of what is a horrible tragedy for this company and this family.

CLARE DUFFY, CNN BUSINESS WRITER: Yes, Brianna. I mean, look, obviously there is no justification for this kind of violence, but I do think what we're seeing on social media is the sort of bubbling up of a lot of the pent-up anger and frustration and distrust that Americans feel towards the health insurance industry.

Another example of this that I found really striking is this Facebook post from UnitedHealth expressing sadness over Thompson's death. It got tens of thousands of reactions from Facebook users, and the majority of those were laughing face emojis. We're also seeing a lot of these stories of people talking about claims that were denied, and experts say that is a big source of the frustration that many people feel over this industry.

In one study, a majority of Americans, insured Americans, 58 percent say they've experienced a problem with their health insurance, including denied claims and pre-authorization request issues. And of those, 15 percent of those people say they actually experienced health impacts because of the denials. Those denials can cause anxiety. They can delay treatment.

Another thing that I think is really interesting is that UnitedHealthcare in particular has faced scrutiny over its use of artificial intelligence, allegedly to deny claims. There was a lawsuit filed last year that claimed the company has used AI to deny claims from elderly patients, and UnitedHealthcare is seeking to dismiss that lawsuit.

But I think what we're seeing broadly on social media is people expressing frustration over the sort of power that they feel this industry has in comparison to the individual patients that it's serving, Brianna.

KEILAR: Clare Duffy, thank you so much for talking to us about that element of the story. Kayla?

TAUSCHE: Donald Trump is giving an end-of-the-week boost to his pick for defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, who just two days ago was the subject of talk about who could replace him. But today, the President- elect posting that support for Hegseth is, in his words, strong and deep. Adding, quote, "Pete is a winner and there is nothing that can be done to change that."

The military veteran and former Fox News host has been on Capitol Hill this week fighting back against the allegations of sexual assault, money mismanagement and alcohol abuse. He has denied the assault and mismanagement allegations and says he does not have a drinking problem. Let me turn now to CNN's Alayna Treene for the latest.

Alayna, the Vice President-elect JD Vance just a short time ago said the transition team is not abandoning the Hegseth nomination. Is this a gaining of momentum?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Look, I'd argue that it hasn't really changed that much behind the scenes, because one key difference between someone like Pete Hegseth from what we saw happen with Matt Gaetz, who ended up, Donald Trump ended up calling him and telling him he did not have the votes, is that so far, both Hegseth's team but also senators are telling the transition this as well, there are no hard nos on Hegseth. That's really been their bar so far for saying that they are still optimistic.

And part of the reason Trump issued that Truth Social, one is to kind of put to bed any anxiety that people think he is having over Hegseth. But also Donald Trump has been, and I'm told this from a number of people at Mar-a-Lago, giving his team the directive to go out there and post in support of Hegseth, to publicly back him and show that they are not moving away from him.

Now, we also heard the VP-elect JD Vance issue a statement of support for him as well, telling reporters this in North Carolina.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JD VANCE (VICE PRESIDENTIAL-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES): Pete Hegseth is going to get his appearing before the Senate Armed Services Committee, not a sham hearing before the American media. We believe that Pete Hegseth is the right guy to lead the Department of Defense, that's why President Trump nominated him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: Now, Kayla, one really interesting thing that I've been picking up in my conversations with Trump's transition team is that part of the reason they are all in on Hegseth is because a lot of people think that if Donald Trump gives in to the pressure from senators on another nominee and another nominee withdraws their name, that'll give lawmakers too much control over Donald Trump.

This is what one source familiar with the conversations told me. They said, "If he drops Pete because of pressure from establishment Republican senators, all it will do is have the effect of the Senate essentially controlling Trump and not the other way around."

TAUSCHE: Well, you have the FBI background check that's now underway and that is going to be one high stakes committee hearing when it happens. Alayna, thank you. We appreciate it. Brianna?

[15:10:02]

KEILAR: Joining us now is Democratic congressman, Jake Auchincloss of Massachusetts. He is a member of the Defense Spending Reduction Caucus and a former Marine. And also, I should mention, a member of the select committee when it comes to China and U.S.

So I'm curious, Congressman, you are watching what we're all watching, which is we've now seen the President-elect and Vice President-elect Vance backing Pete Hegseth on social media. Do you read this as, yes, there may be a chance that he could actually be defense secretary?

REP. JAKE AUCHINCLOSS (D-MA): Not if the United States Senate does its Article I job and actually vets him thoroughly. Because if they do that, even Senate Republicans are going to have to see that he can't do any of the three core jobs of secretary of defense: One, be a manager; two, be a leader; three, be a foreign policymaker.

I mean, he was a manager of two small non-profits, ran them into the ground. He has failed to meet the officer and a gentleman standards that the uniform code of military justice asks of military leaders. And he has zero foreign policy experience, so how do we trust him on the phone with the Israeli defense minister or the Ukrainian defense minister or the Taiwanese defense minister when snap judgment calls are the potential between war and peace. So he just - he fails on all three fronts.

KEILAR: There are sources that Kayla is talking to who say Trump world sees Hegseth, you know, at least as an effective heat shield from other controversial picks like Tulsi Gabbard and RFK Jr, who quite frankly, we've heard much less about than we might otherwise hear because he's getting so much attention.

AUCHINCLOSS: Yes.

KEILAR: How much does that can concern you that all this attention on him - with him staying in benefits some of these other picks?

AUCHINCLOSS: I think that's exactly right. And the founders in their infinite wisdom understood this dynamic. They knew that at one point in our history, we would have a strong man populist in the Oval Office who would want to project his own power and his own preferences ahead of the American peoples. And they - so they said the Senate has to advice and consent on these important nominations.

So these picks are actually less about the individuals. We know that these individuals are going to be yes men for Donald Trump. They're more about whether the Senate takes seriously its own constitutional responsibility. This is John Thune's first real test on the national stage. He is the new Senate majority leader and we're about to find out what John Thune is made of.

KEILAR: So I want to ask you, because you have noted, I'm sure as we all have that Hegseth has put a real emphasis on lethality, saying that that would - lethality, lethality, lethality, he actually said that that would be his only focus if he's chosen to lead the Pentagon. I think the question may be, what does he really mean by that? Because he's spoken out against the constraints of current rules of engagement, the constraints of the Geneva Convention, he supported accused and convicted war criminals. What do you take him to mean when he's saying that he's focusing on lethality only?

AUCHINCLOSS: Well, there's a lot of dimensions to that. One of them, yes, is rules of engagement. The other would be tactical and technique training for officers and for enlisted. Just yesterday, though, the Select Committee on China had a hearing about a third dimension, which was our defense industrial base, which is a really important component of that.

And one thing that the next Secretary of Defense should do is really overhaul how the military buys things. I've voted against every defense budget since I've been in Congress, not because I don't want a stronger military, I do. It's because I'm so frustrated with how badly the Pentagon procures things.

Instead of buying these expensive, exquisite weapons systems that only monopolistic vendors can provide, we've got to start building modular, commercial scale and autonomous systems that we can wage against China in the Indo-Pacific, things that are built by companies like Anduril or Hadrian or others. We've got to move into the 21st century and outproduce our enemies like China and Russia.

KEILAR: We'll have to see if that's what he means, if he makes it to the confirmation process, perhaps some of your Senate colleagues will be asking him those very questions.

Congressman Jake Auchincloss, thanks for your time.

AUCHINCLOSS: Good afternoon.

KEILAR: We do have some breaking news in the Daniel Penny manslaughter trial. That is the ex-Marine accused of killing street performer, Jordan Neely, onboard a New York City subway after Penny held Neely in a chokehold for several minutes. The jury says that they have deadlocked for a second time. CNN's Gloria Pazmino is outside of court there.

Gloria, tell us what's happening.

GLORIA PAZMINO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it is a bit of a dramatic moment right now, Brianna, I have to tell you, because it is Friday. We've been at this since Monday. We're almost done through the day. And the jury has now just said for the second time to Judge Wiley, we cannot get to an agreement on the first count.

Now, the reason that is important is because this jury cannot even begin to consider the second count until they get through the first. The first is the most serious of the two charges, manslaughter in the second degree.

[15:15:03] Now, early in the day today, they said that they were deadlocked and Judge Wiley instructed them to go back into the deliberation room and keep at it. Keep doing the job that you're here to do. Try to get to a verdict. Try to get to an agreement. Review the evidence and try to get there was what he told them. They came back. They asked for a definition, a legal definition of what it means to be a reasonable person.

So they're going through the details. But now, once again, a little bit after returning from lunch today, they're telling Judge Wiley they cannot get to an agreement. This is now the second time this jury is hung on this top charge. Now, before they were sent back to deliberate, while the parties were talking about what to do without the jury being in the room, there was a discussion about whether or not the prosecution in this case would consider agreeing to dismiss the top charge if the jury remained hung on it so that they could be allowed to move on to the second charge.

The prosecution said that they were open to that. And right now the parties are conferring. They have not reached a decision yet. But there is a possibility where the prosecution here, led up by Alvin Bragg, the district attorney here in Manhattan, might say, we'll let the first charge go. But we got to move on to the second one.

Now, you have to wonder how that may play for this jury. It's unclear, right? They could say, okay, good, we can now move on. But they could also say, well, if the top charge is something you're willing to let go, what does it mean for the second charge? So it's just a really intense moment of trying to figure out where this jury is at, trying to imagine what they're thinking.

But at least for now, we can tell that they're really making an effort to understand what the law requires them to do and trying to get to a place of agreement. We don't know. There might be one person, two people in there who are just not in agreement with the rest and they're trying to work through that. It is Friday, Brianna. The weekend is around the corner. Perhaps they don't want to be back here on Monday. But on the other hand, they know that they have someone's life in their hands and it looks like they are taking that very seriously, as they should.

In the meantime, throughout all of this, the defense has moved for a mistrial multiple times at this point, saying that this should not be such a complicated case, according to them. The judge has disagreed, telling them that it's not time to declare a mistrial just yet. Brianna?

KEILAR: All right, Gloria, a lot happening there. We know that you'll stay on it.

Let's go now to criminal defense attorney Misty Marris, who's with us. Misty, what do you make of the jury deadlocking a second time here?

MISTY MARRIS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY & TRIAL ATTORNEY: Yes, there's a lot going on in this case. So the jury now deadlocking a second time on the manslaughter charge. And right before that, really interesting. The jury had asked for a clarification on one of the instructions relating to justification, relating to the self-defense argument.

They asked the judge for clarification on what the standard is as far as justified self-defense. It's called the reasonable person standard and the judge read that to the jury. That is very relevant because it seems like now that we have a second deadlock, the jury is likely grappling with some individuals who believe that Daniel Penny's actions were justified versus other individuals who do not.

And in that case, if justification is the linchpin here, that's what's keeping the jury from agreeing. The second charge, criminally negligent homicide, the same will happen because that is the same element to both of the charges, manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide. So that was very, very telling, the question and now the second deadlock.

KEILAR: Misty, we can't know what's happening between those jurors, but I think people looking at New York City and the city's experience with crime in recent years, they're going to have some questions about what kind of conversations people are having in that jury room. When you look just at the law, is it that complicated to you? What kind of conclusion do you think a reasonable jury would come to? And is it a potential that the experience of New Yorkers with the recent crime in the city, you know, informed of that over the last few years that that could come into play here?

MARRIS: Absolutely. So I'm a New Yorker myself. So I've taken the subway. I've lived in New York City for 20 years. So any New Yorker that you speak to about this case, it's actually really interesting because you do get reasonable arguments on both sides. There are some people who say this should have been a guilty verdict right away. And there are others who say this case should have never been brought.

[15:20:00]

But keep in mind, those jurors - those jurors are New Yorkers, many of whom had said during jury selection that they ride the subway frequently and even some would have negative experiences. They're told when they enter that jury room, you have to base your decision on the evidence, what you heard in court and nothing else. But they're also told, you don't leave your life experience and common sense at the door. That's part of the jury instruction.

So any juror in that room looking at this case, looking at the evidence is looking at through the prism of their own experiences. So when they're in that jury room, I'm sure that that's what we're seeing manifest in this deadlock is that they're grappling with that.

KEILAR: It'll be very interesting to find out.

Misty Marris, thank you so much.

And ahead on CNN NEWS CENTRAL, CNN's Shimon Prokupecz just spoke moments ago - you heard this happening as we were here on TV - he spoke moments ago with the commissioner of the New York Police Department about this search for this person, this suspect, in the shooting of the UnitedHealthcare CEO. We learned just minutes ago that police believe the person of interest has left the city. We're going to bring in that interview after a quick break.

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[15:25:17]

TAUSCHE: Breaking news, CNN just sat down with the NYPD commissioner and NYPD chief of detectives to get the latest on the manhunt for the gunman who shot and killed the CEO of UnitedHealthcare.

KEILAR: CNN's Shimon Prokupecz got this sit-down interview. Tell us what you learned, Shimon.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so they gave us about 12 to 15 minutes to sit with the police commissioner and also the chief of detectives who is running this entire investigation. And some significant new information that I can report now is that the suspect - the NYPD believes the suspect is no longer in New York City. They've been able to track his movement. And what they say is that on that bike, remember there's that video from 85th Street, West 85th Street, where he comes down the road, makes a right. They now say that they see the suspect get in a taxi cab and head north.

They also say that they have a lot of evidence that they're still working through. Here's some of what they told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PROKUPECZ (off camera): Where is this guy? Who is this guy?

JESSICA TISCH, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: So I'll start by saying we have every reason to believe that this was a targeted attack on an individual rather than a random act of violence. We do have a person of interest in the case, and we have released the photo yesterday. We would appreciate you getting that photo out to your audience because we also have reason to believe that the person in question has left New York City. So we want a wider audience to see the picture outside of New York City.

PROKUPECZ: Okay, so that's new information. And what is that based on? Why do you believe that this person has left New York City?

TISCH: Well, before we do that, I want to say that if anyone sees that photo and recognizes that person, we ask them to call 1-800-577-TIPS. That's if you have information about who that person is, and it's a pretty good shot of a face. So if you know that person when you see the photo, you should be quite sure. But if you do see the person on the street, don't call 1-800-577-TIPS, call 911 wherever you are.

PROKUPECZ: Got it.

Sir, if I can ask you now ...

JOSEPH KENNY, NYPD CHIEF OF DETECTIVES: Yes.

PROKUPECZ: What has led your investigators to believe that this individual has left New York City?

KENNY: Our detectives are doing a very, very extensive video canvas. We're working from back - from the Hilton Hotel, from the incident itself, all the way to Uptown Manhattan. So we have our perpetrator leaves the Hilton Hotel after the incident takes place. We have them getting on a bicycle and riding into Central Park.

We then later pick him up on 77th Street, exiting the park on Central Park West, still with the bicycle. Eventually, we have him on 86th Street and Columbus Avenue walking. He loses the bike. And then from there, we have him in a taxi cab, and the taxi cab takes him up to 178th Street and Broadway, which as we know, is a Port Authority bus center. Those buses are interstate buses. That's why we believe he left - he may have left New York City.

PROKUPECZ: Do you know what bus he got on, where that bus was going?

KENNY: We're working into that and then we're looking into that now. It's a very busy bus terminal. We want to make sure we have the right bus, but we're working through that right now. This is all new information.

PROKUPECZ: Yes.

TISCH: And actually, now as we speak, we have a huge canvas going on in Central Park. We still have not found the backpack, and so we're doing a full sweep of Central Park to find that backpack, which we believe he dropped in Central Park. We're using manpower, but we're also using our drones.

PROKUPECZ: I want to get back to that quickly, because this is new information. I think it's important for New York City residents certainly to know that this individual is no longer - you believe he's no longer ...

TISCH: We said we have reason to believe ...

PROKUPECZ: Right.

TISCH: ... he's no longer in New York City.

PROKUPECZ: And that I assume is based on video of ...

KENNY: We have video of him entering the Port Authority Bus Terminal. We don't have any video of him exiting, so we believe he may have gotten on a bus.

PROKUPECZ: Okay. And we don't know what bus.

KENNY: No, not at this time.

PROKUPECZ: Did he say - the cab driver, were you able to interview the cab driver that - the taxi driver that took him to the ...

TISCH: We want to be careful not to get too far in the weeds of this investigation. It is an active, ongoing investigation. (END VIDEO CLIP)

PROKUPECZ: And so there you go, that's basically the important new information, I think, for investigators right now that this manhunt is obviously now going to have to expand. The race is on to figure out what bus he got on at the Port Authority Bus Terminal in Upper Manhattan.

Remember, he took a bus here, they believe, got on somewhere at some point, maybe transferred through Atlanta, made his way to New York City, spent about 10 days or so here before committing this horrific crime.

[15:30:02]

And now, again, it appears that he has left the same way he came via a bus.