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NYPD in Atlanta for CEO Murder Case; Trump Leaves Door Open for DOJ Picks; Sources Talk about Patel; Rep. James Clyburn (D-SC) is Interviewed about Pardons. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired December 09, 2024 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JESSICA DEAN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Jessica Dean, alongside John Berman. Sara and Kate are out today. And this is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, brand new this morning, the FBI offering a reward of up to $50,000 for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the suspect wanted for killing United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson. The manhunt is now in its sixth day, and sources say that NYPD, New York City Police officers, are in Atlanta now investigating.

You're looking at one of the two new images released by officials. One appears to show the suspect riding in the back seat of a taxi on the day of the shooting. Another shows him walking down the street. Authorities say the shooter's backpack was found discarded in Central Park, filled with Monopoly money, but not a weapon. Divers have been searching ponds in Central Park under the idea that maybe he threw the gun into the pond, but so far they have not recovered anything.

With us now, John Miller, CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst.

So, New York City detectives are in Atlanta, John. Why?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, the investigative theory has been that it - that the shooter took a bus up from Atlanta. They have him coming out of the port authority bus terminal in midtown Manhattan ten days, on the 24th, before the shooting. And they're trying to backtrack that bus route. So, if it originates in Atlanta, where did he get on? What stop along the way?

And that's where they're using FBI agents to run those leads, do those video canvasses while they work with both the bus company and the local authorities in Atlanta to try and run those leads.

BERMAN: Any financial evidence that they've been tracking down? I guess, what, he paid at the hostel in cash. So that's limiting right there.

MILLER: He seemed to, whoever the shooter is, choose venues where you could still pay in cash. Things like the bus. Not the airlines. Things like the hostel, not a hotel, where even if you pay in cash they always want a credit card to secure other charges. That's probably why he ended up in the hostel.

BERMAN: That's interesting in and of itself.

So, those pictures that we were looking at, the new pictures that we're getting our first look at today, in the taxi, which is interesting, and also on the streets. Also pointing to a location miles north of Central Park, the last place we had known that he was, near a bus station.

MILLER: That's right. He's actually on a street in the - really the upper reaches of Manhattan, across the street from a park, but a couple of blocks from that bus station. So, one investigative theory, which would be logical if he was avoiding airports and airlines, take a bus in, take a bus out. But they've also been checking airports and cameras and looking for - for hits there, trying to figure this out.

And, you know, the FBI, which is because so many of these leads really at the request of the NYPD saying, if he's not here, we're looking for people from other places who recognize this face. The FBI has taken on the role of running some of these leads out of town. In fact, crossing state lines with the intent to commit a felony, even a felony that's not a federal crime, traveling interstate to do that is a federal crime. So, I think you're going to see them become involved in a partnership with the NYPD here.

BERMAN: John, the messages on the shell casings, the Monopoly money in the backpack, which some people think might have been a message there about greed here, if this person is sending messages or was in the moments after the shooting, and then for some time, do they feel - do authorities feel he might act again? How concerned are they that he could still be dangerous?

MILLER: They are concerned because, you know, so far the messages they have gotten are not directly associated with United Healthcare or Mr. Thompson, the victim. But, you know, "delay," "deny," "depose," the things written on the bullets and the shell casings, are kind of the three d's that critics use about the insurance company. The presence of Monopoly money in the backpack in Central Park, where the killer had to presume it might be found, seems like a real message about greed, because what was in there, that and a Tommy Hilfiger jacket.

BERMAN: And instinctly (ph) not a gun.

MILLER: Yes.

BERMAN: All right, John Miller, thank you very much. Appreciate all your work on this.

MILLER: Thanks.

BERMAN: Jessica.

DEAN: Joining us now to talk more about this, CNN law enforcement contributor Steve Moore and former U.S. Marshal John Muffler.

Great to have both of you here with us. John, let's start first with you. It's now been several days. We've

made it through the weekend. And, yes, they've gotten a lot of evidence. But no - they don't have this guy yet. Are you surprised?

JOHN MUFFLER, FORMER U.S. MARSHAL: No, but I - it tells me a lot that they're in Atlanta.

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And so when I think one of the investigative techniques that they're using is a cell phone tower dumps and looking at those time and places where they know the shooter was, you're looking at all those cameras. They're time stamped. And so they can look at those cell towers in that location and see what numbers were being used at that time and location that weren't being used in the days leading up to. So, that number - those numbers can be taken out of that dump and traced back to a location. So, it tells me that they have a good idea that this guy is from the Atlanta area. That's why they're down there.

DEAN: That's interesting. And, Steve, look, we know - we have that piece of it. We know that they're in Atlanta. We also saw them over the weekend diving and searching within that lake within Central Park, looking for that murder weapon. What did you make of that?

STEVE MOORE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CONTRIBUTOR: Well, obviously, they're there right along the line of travel. You know, the backpack gave them an idea, informed them a little bit of the route he took through Central Park. So, they're following logical leads there.

Another thing that they have to consider is his M.O. in this entire thing was going from one place a long way away to going to the next place that he was (INAUDIBLE) like the attack. And so you - the investigators have to concentrate, not just on Atlanta or the stops that they've got, but they have to realize that he may have flown somewhere using his normal I.D. to Atlanta and taken the bus up from there to throw it off. So, there's so many potential variables here.

DEAN: Yes. And, John, we hear Steve talking about the M.O. And I do want to kind of drill down on that because this is a very specific case in the evidence he left behind, in the - as John Miller was laying out, the words on the bullets, the Monopoly money in this backpack that they found.

What do you take away from how he planned this out? Again, just - again, knowing how to move through a city, he did - he did show up in a lot of photos and video. But he was clearly aware of where the surveillance was.

MUFFLER: Yes, he definitely did his operational planning, pre-attack surveillance. Knew his - knew the location of this meeting and knew where he was going to be. So again, ten days in advance says a lot and gives you a lot - gave him a lot of time to plan this out. And he was thinking about it longer than ten days before the attack, right? This is something that's been on his mind for a long time, for whatever reason. I guess we'll learn that in the postmortem of the investigation. But he's left a lot of clues behind. And my feeling is they're pretty, pretty close to him.

DEAN: And, Steve, what are your thoughts at this point? Because there's also this thinking that law enforcement does know more than they're telling the public, for obvious reasons, to preserve the integrity of this investigation, to be allowed to move a little bit more nimbly without this suspect having all their cards as well. Where do you think it stands now?

MOORE: Well, generally on cases like this, you've got three points. You've got to identify the person. You've got to locate and arrest the person, and then you've got to prosecute the person.

When the mayor of New York is describing the investigation in the past tense, this was a difficult investigation. This was, you know, a really challenging investigation. That, to me, kind of makes me think that they've got the first one. They've identified him. And now they're in - they're kind of in fugitive mode, which is what the marshals do so well.

DEAN: And so, John, where do we look next? What are you looking for next in terms of the next big break that potentially authorities will need, or that the public might hear about? Is it - is it - is it actually apprehending him?

MUFFLER: Yes, I think another clue is, I know there's much to be said about the burner phone. That makes - for an investigator, it just makes it a little bit more difficult, but it's more of a tedious investigation. But with those burner phones, there's an IMEI number associated with that number. It's a 15-digit number that goes to the store it was sold from. So, they're going to know what store sold that phone and they can then interview those people and know that time and that place of that purchase.

So, that's another lead they're going to be following. And some more people who can give some specific information on that - on that individual who purchased it, whether it was him or someone else.

DEAN: Yes, technology does seem to leave a trail of evidence behind. Steve Moore and John Muffler, our thanks to both of you.

John.

BERMAN: All right, who is running Syria right now. Nations securing their borders. And all the uncertainty after the fall of the Assad regime.

Donald Trump's pick to lead the FBI heads to Capitol Hill this morning. What questions will lawmakers have about his past?

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And then, heinous and idiotic. That is how Jay-z is describing the disturbing sexual assault allegations leveled against him in a lawsuit.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BERMAN: All right, new this morning, piecing together the promises, the statements and some misstatements in President-elect Donald Trump's first major interview since he won election. He sat down and talked extensively on a number of subjects.

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Immigration first and foremost among them. He said he would end birthright citizenship. That is enshrined in the Constitution. But also said he wanted to work with Democrats to figure out a way to keep dreamers here in the United States.

Let's get to CNN's Alayna Treene with the very latest.

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Now, Trump had previously said that he would support trying to protect dreamers during his first term as well, but then he also tried to end the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, an Obama-era program that really would have protected dreamers. That was later struck down by the court. So, we'll see what this could look like in a second term. But I think it's clear that Donald Trump, as he's having these conversations since he got elected, he's having some political considerations about what this could mean as well.

Now, I also want to talk about another major issue that Donald Trump addressed during this "Meet the Press" interview, and that was whether he wanted to double down on his claims to seek retribution against political opponents. Trump said that he does not plan to go after directly President Joe Biden. However, he did leave the door open to allow some of his political appointees and people like Pam Bondi, his pick to lead the Department of Justice, as well as Kash Patel, who's picked to lead the FBI, really giving them kind of broad authority to go after whoever they believe maybe had committed crimes or acted in a corrupt manner.

He also talked about wanting to issue January 6th pardons on day one. Again, this is something that Donald Trump had repeatedly vowed to do throughout his time on the campaign trail. But it's been unclear really, ever since he won the election, how he would do that. He didn't really get into the specifics during this interview, but I will say, from my conversations with Trump's team, there's two different thoughts about how to go about it. Some people believe that really he should have these wide pardons, sweeping pardons for anyone who was convicted for what they did on January 6th in the Capitol attack. Others, however, saying it should be on a case by case basis, specifically looking at the people who did not, you know, attack police officers or weren't committed on seditious conspiracy charges.

So, some considerations there. But again, this is something that Donald Trump said that he will do very early on once he assumes office. And I'd also just add here that this is also a promise that I'm told he needs to follow through on. He didn't just make this promise broadly throughout his time on the campaign trail. He also promised this to specific people, to their families. And so, this is something I am told that he is expected to follow through. The question is, what will it look like? DEAN: Alayna, thank you.

And this morning, several of President-elect Trump's picks for key national security positions are heading to The Hill to meet with top GOP senators as they prepare for confirmation fights. And they include Defense secretary nominee Pete Hegseth, Tulsi Gabbard, who's been tapped to be the next Director of National Intelligence, and Kash Patel, Trump's pick to lead the FBI.

Patel is widely seen as a controversial figure with a deep disdain for Washington elites, with one former colleague saying the former mid- level Justice Department lawyer is the kind of person who, quote, "sees enemies everywhere."

CNN's Zachary Cohen has new reporting now from Washington.

Zach, you and our colleagues doing a deep dive into the background of Kash Patel. What did you learn?

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes, that's right, Jessica, we talked to over a dozen people who worked with Kash Patel. Some that have known him for years. And they all characterize him, described somebody who sees themselves as an outsider and somebody who carries a rather large chip on their shoulder, dating back to his time - that originates from his time as a young prosecutor and as a young lawyer. He was - he worked as a mid-level DOJ attorney back in 2016. And multiple people we talked to pointed to a specific incident that occurred around that time when Kash Patel was essentially parachuted into an ongoing court battle. He was fresh off a plane from the Middle East and entered a courtroom and really seems to have been embarrassed by the way he was treated by a judge who effectively said, quote, "who is this Patel guy?" And then said, quote, "you're just one more non- essential employee from Washington," essentially describing Patel as the very thing he has pledged, as FBI director, to help Trump route out of the establishment. So, look, this is something that somebody very close to Patel and somebody who's known him since that time said in hindsight, quote, "thinking back about it now, I can see the arc of him going from this guy who was obsessed with one episode to someone who sees enemies everywhere. I think he was always like this, an opportunist who feels constantly aggrieved."

And that's something -- a viewpoint and a world view that he actually tends to share with Donald Trump. And one that has really fueled his rise within Trump's universe. It's something that motivated him as an investigator on Capitol Hill to help try to investigate the so-called Russia collusion hoax. That's what got Trump's attention. And it, again, was a motivator while he was on the National Security Council. But look, as you mentioned, that sort of loyalty and that sort of shared ideology with Donald Trump has made him a controversial figure and something that Trump actually yesterday on "Meet the Press" acknowledged could pose a problem for his confirmation.

Take a listen to what he said.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENT-ELECT: And Kash Patel is very fair. I'll tell you, I thought Kash may be difficult because he's, you know, a strong conservative voice. And I don't know of anybody that's not singing his praises.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: So, Patel has publicly said that he wants to use a second Trump term to help investigate Donald Trump's political enemies. Something that Donald Trump has already spoken publicly about as well.

And that could raise questions when he's on Capitol Hill from senators who, while publicly have rallied around Patel's nomination as Trump has sort of urged them to confirm all of his nominees, but privately has expressed concerns about his experience and also his public comments about going after these political enemies. So, we'll have to see what the reaction is when he meets with these senators on Capitol Hill. But there will have to be some swaying that goes on, on Patel's part.

DEAN: All right, Zach Cohen with the latest there.

Thank you very much. John.

BERMAN: All right, with us now is Congressman Jim Clyburn, a Democrat from South Carolina.

Congressman, thank you so much for being with us.

This interview that Donald Trump, the president-elect, did, he talked about a number of things. But one of the things he discussed was pardoning January 6th rioters the first day he is in office.

Listen to this.

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DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENT-ELECT: But I'm going to be acting very quickly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Within your first 100 days? First day?

TRUMP: First day.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First day?

TRUMP: Yes. I'm looking first day.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To issue these pardons?

TRUMP: These people have been there, how long is it, three or four years.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. TRUMP: You know, by the way, they've been in there for years. And they're in a filthy, disgusting place that shouldn't even be allowed to be open.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Congressman, how would you feel about then President Trump pardoning the January 6th rioters on day one?

REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC): Well, thank you very much for having me.

You know, this is not the first time he's said that. Throughout the entire campaign he campaigned on that, made it very clear that that was his intent. Not respecting the fact that these people attempted an insurrection, of course. He encouraged them to do so. And so maybe that's why he's taking that into account.

But the fact of the matter is, they did so. Some people died. I was in that building that day. I know very well what took place. This was not any kind of walk in the park. No peaceful protest. This was an insurrection. It was violent. And it took lives.

And so, for him to say this on - yesterday simply reinforced what he's been saying throughout the campaign.

Maya Angelou told us, if people show you who they are, believe them the first time. So, I believed him before we ever got to yesterday.

BERMAN: But you think - you're against it, to be fair, to be sure?

CLYBURN: Well, you know, I think that it's the president's prerogative to pardon whomever he wishes to pardon. That's up to the president. I favor the pardon system. It ought to be used to rectify wrongs. It ought to be used to forgive and to provide a second chance.

So, if you go on a case by case basis, you look at all of those people, and some people may have gotten caught up in the emotions and may be a pardon for them would be OK. But if you're using the American flag, plugging at the soldiers, I mean, the law enforcement officers, you have injured a law enforcement officer and you're spraying whatever the stuff was they were spraying on people, those people should not be pardoned.

And so, yes, go case by case. And there may be some people who got caught up and give them a pardon. But a blanket pardon to everybody irrespective, no, I do not agree with that.

BERMAN: All right, but a case by case maybe. That is interesting.

Shifting to the current president, President Biden, how would you feel about President Biden issuing what some people call preemptive pardons? We hear it's being considered or discussed at least inside the White House, pardoning people. And just some of the names that are thrown out there, you know, Anthony Fauci or others who might come under or be targeted by a Trump administration? CLYBURN: Well, I agree that that should happen. Once again, case by case. I wouldn't say to the president, just blanket everybody or pardon everybody in a blanket way. No, go case by case. And Fauci is an indication of someone that I think should be protected because he has been threatened by people who say that he ought to be in jail. For what?

Bennie Thompson's name was mentioned on yesterday. Liz Cheney. Now, I, for two or three weeks have been saying the president should use his pardoning power to protect those people who were doing their jobs and now have someone like Kash Patel saying he's going to go after them.

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Now, some people say you shouldn't do it. They don't want it done for them. Maybe they can afford the legal fees that go along with all of that. You know, I know Bennie Thompson. We came up the same way. He in Mississippi, I in South Carolina. We can't afford to be paying our children's future out to attorneys protecting ourselves against stuff that just is not true.

And so, if you want - don't want the pardon, then don't take it. But for people who need to protect themselves, their children's future, I think the president should take that into account.

BERMAN: You know, you mentioned Bennie Thompson, the January 6th Committee. This is what Donald Trump said about potentially investigating them.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENT-ELECT: For what they did -

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

TRUMP: Honestly, they should go to jail.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, you think Liz Cheney should go to jail?

TRUMP: For what they did -

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everyone on the committee, you think should go to jail?

TRUMP: I think everybody on the - anybody that voted in favor -

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you going to direct your FBI director and your attorney general to send them to jail?

TRUMP: No. No. No, not at all. I think that they'll have to look at that. But I'm not going to - I'm going to focus on drill, baby, drill.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BERMAN: Your reaction to that?

CLYBURN: Well, I think that's what I'm talking about. He's made it very clear, she cut him off before he said, for anybody - he seemed to be saying, who participated on those committees, they ought to be in jail. Now, just look at that committee. I think Adam Schiff was on that committee. He says he doesn't want a pardon. Well, that's OK. But I don't think that everybody is in the same position. I don't know. Maybe he can afford the expenses that go along with that sort of thing. To me, I think President Biden ought to demonstrate the kind of compassion he's always demonstrated in his public life, and certainly as president of the United States, and use the power and authority that he has to protect the integrity of those people who are working to protect the integrity of this democracy.

And that's what those people were doing. They unearthed some things. They had people to testify who were very close to Donald Trump, who worked in the White House. And they have shared with the public what they (INAUDIBLE). And because they did that, they should all go to jail. That's what he said. Those are his words. We ought to believe him when he says it. And I know there are people already saying, oh, he doesn't mean that. OK, go and look and see what he had - what he did after the 2016 election. We got a precursor way back then to what's now being called Project 2025.

I've studied history all of my life, and I'm telling you, what I see going on, what I hear coming from those people who are planning to work in this administration should be concerned for everybody. I know what happened. The history is very clear what happened the last time we had a presidential election that pretended this.

BERMAN: All right.

CLYBURN: Jim Crow became the law of the land. And that's where we're headed if we aren't careful.

BERMAN: All right, Congressman Jim Clyburn, appreciate it. Thank you very much.

Jessica.

DEAN: Jay-z responding this morning after being named in a sexual assault lawsuit that also named Sean "Diddy" Combs. The disturbing allegations from a woman who says she was sexually assaulted by both men when she was just 13 years old.

And this morning, many are wondering what's next for Syria after the stunning collapse of the Assad regime after decades of power.

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