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Fallen Dictator's Luxury Cars; Uncertainty Building in Syria; Oleksandra Matviichuk is Interviewed about Russia and Ukraine; Government Testing Milk Supply. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired December 10, 2024 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Were dozens and dozens of armored cars, if you can believe that. I don't know how anyone would need so many armored cars. And I'm bringing you over here because you can see this collection of classic cars over here.

And the reason this is all significant, John, the reason that we're talking about this, that we're showing you this is because really, this is indicative of the deep, deep corruption of the Assad regime, which is a big part of why this whole uprising started in the first place back in 2011. Bashar al-Assad had been ruling for some years. His father, for many decades before. And the levels of corruption and greed, the opulence and the lavish lifestyle, when so many Syrians were struggling to put food on the table. You imagine, John, the last 14 years Syrians have been under bombardment. They've been tortured, maimed, kidnaped, killed. And meanwhile, Bashar al Assad was living literally like a king, with garages full of cars, with palaces, with incredible mosaics and marble.

And we actually watched in the presidential palace some ordinary people, who managed to sneak in, walking around with their jaws dropped. They could not believe how he was living at a time when Syria was suffering so acutely.

And so this really is a metaphor for the root of the rot for where it all started and what it really means. The spirit of this Syrian uprising. Obviously, we're not going to sugarcoat it. There is a lot of anxiety in this moment. There is a lot of anxiety about the makeup of rebel forces, about whether there will be chaos, whether there will be strict Islamic law. And so it's not that everybody is out in the streets celebrating. But most Syrians are united in finding these displays of wealth and opulence truly sickening and indicative of the sickness of the Assad regime.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: That is the great reporting and the view from on the ground from CNN's Clarissa Ward.

Let's talk now more about the implications of all of it with CNN's Jim Sciutto, who's joining us right now. And also right now kind of encapsulated in all of this, Jim, is the

question of how are these rebel factions going to form a working government, and what is it going to look like? How important is this?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: It's a fair question. You know, just a brief thought watching Clarissa in that basement there. You know, none of these leaders are creative, right? I mean I feel like we've been in the garages of Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi, et cetera..

BOLDUAN: So true.

SCIUTTO: It's the same scene, right? I mean people who have such disdain - leaders who have such disdain for their people, they steal from them, live these opulent lives while their people are suffering. And actually worse, right, while they're killing their own people. Anyway, that image just so familiar as we watch it there.

In terms of these groups, it was interesting to watch that transition yesterday between the former prime minister, Bashar al-Assad's prime minister, now exiled, sitting down with the leader of the rebel group there in a calm conversation on those formal chairs handing over power in what looked on the surface like a peaceful transition of power. But, of course, it wasn't. I mean this was the result of military action as those rebels took over the country and Bashar al-Assad's forces dissolved and disappeared.

The question going forward is, can they maintain this as at least not being a bloody transition, right? And for now HTS is showing to the world, or attempting to show to the world, that it does not intend to have that kind of transition going forward, right? Including making contact with countries and leaders and officials around the world.

But we have to remember, this is a rebel group. And a rebel group that developed from the Nusra Front, which was an al Qaeda-tied organization. So, one of many fighting groups in that country. And none of those fighting groups have disappeared except Assad's forces. They're still there, gunning for power, right? Including the forces that the U.S. backs in the northeastern part of Syria, the Kurds. And none of the outside players have lost their interest in the country either. Turkey, for instance, in the north. Russia and Iran, they're pushed back, but they still have interests there.

So, the question is, how, if you can get those folks around the table to discuss some plan going forward, that's a big question mark, Kate. And listen, Israel - Syria has settled these differences over the last, well, more than a decade on the battlefield. So, the transition would be to get those differences settled, not on the battlefield, but at the negotiating table.

[08:35:04]

That's a - that's a tall order.

BOLDUAN: And just - I mean, in this - a very tall order and just maybe one element of it and how the U.S. approaches it. This kind of contributes to is, the State Department on Monday said that it's not actively reviewing the foreign terrorist organization designation on that main Syrian rebel group that took out - that overthrew Bashar al- Assad over the weekend. Not actively reviewing is one - is one thing, but how that changes in the future is another thing.

SCIUTTO: Yes. You know, it's interesting, Matt Miller, State Department spokesman, said not actively reviewing when asked this question, but he didn't close the door. And this phrasing caught my attention. He said, "there is no specific review related to what happened over in Syria. We are always reviewing our sanctions posture with entities based on their actions. So, when entities take different actions, of course, there can be a change in our sanctions."

What he's basically saying is, if HTS changes the way it operates, they're at least open to that question right? Making no promises here.

And we should note that HTS has at least been trying to do just that, right, as it's taken over areas in Syria with, for instance, religious minorities, including Christians. It has deliberately said, you can live your lives the way you want to. We're not going to force you to do anything. To say, in effect, that we're not the group we used to be.

Now, the proof will be in the pudding going forward, whether they can demonstrate that that is real and lasting change. That's another tall order. But the U.S. at least leaving the door open there.

BOLDUAN: Yes, leaving the door open with a little like ball is in your court, right?

SCIUTTO: Exactly.

BOLDUAN: Show us - show us in - show us in deeds, not just words, if you will.

And then, on Monday, you have Israel saying that it struck Syria's chemical weapons capabilities. It also moved troops into like that buffer zone that separates the Golan Heights from the rest of Syria. In the midst of Israel facing obvious threats from all other, you know, all of his other borders, what - what do you see in this? This seems a very tenuous moment for any of this to be happening for the region.

SCIUTTO: Well, Israel is trying to get rid of all of Syria's weapons, right, as best it can. Not just chemical weapons, aircraft, et cetera. So, it says it doesn't fall into the hands of the rebels. And, by the way, the U.S. has been striking ISIS targets as well.

And I have to tell you, I think there are probably a lot of folks who don't mind, right? They might not say it publicly, what Israel is doing in terms of destroying those weapons. Taking territory, though, permanently annexing territory, not by international agreement is a different story. And that is the one that I think you're going to see more opposition going forward.

BOLDUAN: That's a good point, Jim, it's great to see you. Thanks for coming on, buddy. Really

appreciate it.

SCIUTTO: Thanks.

BOLDUAN: So, the FDA has updated the risk level of the recall of a widely prescribed antidepressant. The concerns that it could be contaminated with a cancer-causing chemical. We have much more on that.

And TikTok executives are throwing a hail Mary in court, if you will, hoping - hoping that the incoming Trump administration will help prevent it from being banned in the U.S.

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[08:42:53]

BOLDUAN: Ukraine's president is sharing more details today of what he has described as a constructive conversation with President-elect Donald Trump in France over the weekend. Zelenskyy writing on social media this, "I told President Trump that Putin fears only him and perhaps China. And that's the truth. Only decisiveness can bring this war to a just end and ensure lasting peace."

Zelenskyy also gave an update on the war's death toll, saying 43,000 Ukrainian soldiers have died since Russia invaded in 2022.

And as Zelenskyy continues to push for U.S. support on that front, there is another push for help happening on another front. The war crimes that Russian President Vladimir Putin is accused of, including deliberate attacks against civilian targets and hospitals, as well as hundreds of cases of sexual assault committed by Putin's army.

Now, joining us right now is one of the leading Ukrainian human rights activists. Oleksandra Matviichuk is the head of the Center for Civil Liberties in Ukraine. The human rights organization received the 2022 Nobel Peace Prize.

Oleksandra, thank you so much for being here.

And you are in Washington to push on this front, to raise awareness, meet with members of Congress, the Biden administration and incoming Trump administration officials to remind, talk about Russian war crimes. Let's separate all of them and take them in pieces.

What are you hearing first from members of Congress in this moment as we have seen a growing sentiment in the Republican majority to begin pulling back aid to Ukraine?

OLEKSANDRA MATVIICHUK, HEAD OF THE CENTER FOR CIVIL LIBERTIES: I'm here to tell about horrible atrocities which Russia committed in Ukraine daily. And people are shocked because I told about forcibly deported children who were put in Russian reeducation camp, told that they are not Ukrainian, that they are Russian children. Their parents refused from them and they will be forced to be adopted by Russian families who will bring them up as Russians.

I also said them about religious persecutions in occupied territories, like case of father Stepan Podolchak (ph), who was took barefooted with a bag on his head.

[08:45:03]

And after two days, the Russians told his wife that Stepan Podolchak was dead. They tortured the father, Stepan Podolchak, to death only because he refused to transfer his church to Russian patriarchy.

BOLDUAN: That - you say that when you speak with members of Congress, they are shocked to hear about this. But these - the atrocities and the accusations of war crimes, this is not new. This is something that you and others have been raising since the war began really. I mean what is your takeaway then from meeting - meetings with incoming members of the Trump administration?

MATVIICHUK: I'm sure that we have break the circle of impunity, which Russia enjoyed for decades, because Russia committed horrible crimes in Chechnya, in Moldova, in Georgia, in Mali, in Libya, in Syria, in other countries of the world. Russia has never been punished. And that is why Russia believe they can do whatever they want. And now we have historical change to implement justice.

BOLDUAN: Donald Trump has said that he can bring about an immediate ceasefire in Ukraine once he takes office. And just on Sunday, he said he was actively working to end the war and that he would be open to reducing military aid to Ukraine and pulling the United States out of NATO.

From your unique perspective, what is your reaction to that?

MATVIICHUK: A ceasefire, it's a first logical step to peace. But we need sustainable peace. And Russia want to occupy and destroy Ukraine. And even more, they want to forcibly restore Russian empire. And the problem is that Putin doesn't refuse of his goal for this moment. And that is why it's very important, in all peace processes and negotiation, to design a real security guarantees, which make this goal not just to postpone it, but to make this goal impossible to achieve for Putin.

BOLDUAN: One of the - you mentioned one of the elements of the war crimes that I know I've been tracking really closely is, well, it is all atrocious. But one of them is the kidnaping of innocent Ukrainian children. And there have been efforts of trying to find those children, trying to get them back with their families, trying to help them through what they have suffered through. Can you give me an update on what is the latest on that front? How is that going?

MATVIICHUK: It's very sensitive problem for Ukrainian society because Russia ignore all provisions of international law and all decisions of international organizations. And that is why, while Ukrainian official identify approximately 20,000 of Ukrainian children who were illegally deported, only approximately 500 we managed to return back. And the problem is that we have no time because, according to Russian legislation, these children and Russian adoptive family can provide to these children a new name. They can change not just a date of birth, but place of birth. And even having the parents, even having the families, if the children is two years old or three years old, after some time it's impossible to identify where these children are in the huge Russian federation.

BOLDUAN: You've been featured in - I was taking note of - I think it's a multi-million dollar ad campaign to, and correct me if I'm describing it the wrong way, but it seems to bring these atrocities to the attention once again of the American people. For Americans who believe that the United States should pull back on their support of Ukraine, for Americans who say, and we heard it during the presidential campaign, that the United States has already given so much money and so much aid to Ukraine, it's no longer in the U.S. - in U.S. interest, what is your message to them?

MATVIICHUK: First, I would like to express my sincere gratitude from the bottom of my heart for American people, for your solidarity and support in this dramatic time of Ukrainian history. Because we are fighting for freedom. And we are fighting for freedom, not just for ourselves, people whom I interviewed, who survived from Russian captivity told me that Russians see their future like this. That first we'll occupy Ukraine, and then, together with you, we will go to conquer in other countries and process a forcible mobilization of Ukrainians to Russian army all these years is going on in occupied territories.

So, to be clear, Ukrainians are fighting not just for ourselves. We are fighting for the international order which was established after the Second World War, which means that with our fight we are preventing the third one.

BOLDUAN: Oleksandra, thank you very much for coming on.

[08:50:01]

MATVIICHUK: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Thank you.

Coming up for us, here's a quote for you, "I don't remember 20 days." Jamie Foxx now sharing details about the medical emergency that he survived last year. We have more from him coming up.

And the U.S. Department of Agriculture says it will now begin testing unpasteurized milk amid growing concerns of bird flu contamination. Doctor Sanjay Gupta has answers for your questions about the outbreak. That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, happening now, health officials across the country are monitoring an ongoing outbreak of bird flu in dairy cattle.

[08:55:01] Dozens of cases, mostly among farm workers, have put a spotlight on the safety of the nation's milk supply. Now, the government plans to test unpasteurized milk across the country to get a better sense of how the virus is circulating.

CNN chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, he's on call and joins us this morning.

You know, you hear something like this and the obvious question is, you know, how concerned should people be about getting sick from drinking this milk?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I - so, the good news is, I don't think most people should be concerned at all because 99 percent of our milk supply is pasteurized. So, you know, we're really talking about raw milk here in particular, which has becoming increasingly a thing. When you pasteurize milk, it basically means you're heating it up to at least 161 degrees for at least 15 seconds. That's sort of the standard protocol. If you don't do that, there's all sorts of different pathogens that could be in the milk. E coli, salmonella listeria, and now H5N1.

Just to give you a little context, John, about 1 percent of the country drinks raw milk at least once a week. There is some, you know, kind - evidence that maybe it provides bioactive ingredients, although the scientific evidence around that is not really clear. And you can get a lot of those bioactive ingredients in other ways without subjecting yourself to unpasteurized milk.

What we do know is that there's been a lot of outbreaks associated with raw milk over the last 20 years. Some 200 some outbreaks, 2,600 illnesses, 228 hospitalizations. So, we do know that. And that is why, as you said, given the concern about H5N1 in particular, there is going to be this new testing. It's going to start next week. It's going to be at dairy farms across the country, John.

BERMAN: So, you covered a major outbreak of bird flu (INAUDIBLE) back in 2006, when you were 14. Give us a sense of what that outbreak taught us and what it might mean for this current situation we're in.

GUPTA: I'm in my mid 50s now, John. I don't know - I don't know if you know that, so, time has passed.

BERMAN: I don't believe it, but OK.

GUPTA: But, you know, one thing - the reason people get sort of very concerned about H5N1 is because, let me show you this graph. So, I was in Indonesia back in 2006. This was in the midst of a significant bird flu outbreak. And there have been bird flu outbreaks over time. There's the one from 2006. So, that was 2003 to 2009.

You know, John, the orange is the number of cases. Red is the number of deaths. So, if you add up all of that, since 2003, over the last 20 years, mortality around this virus is around 50 percent. The numbers are small, but the mortality overall is high. Now, if you look at that graph even more closely, you can see that

over time the number of cases has come down and the mortality risk has come down as well. So that's good news. But this is still, you know, one of those viruses that people - epidemiologists certainly pay a lot of attention to all over the world.

In the United States, what we've really been talking about is since March, I think that's when this really hit peoples radar screen here. You had it detected in dairy farms in Texas. And then you sort of look at these points in time. There was the first case of a human becoming sick. The first case of a human becoming sick with no known exposure. And then detected in pigs just about a month and a half ago. So, these are the points in time that epidemiologists are paying attention to.

Again, the good news is, most milk is pasteurized. So, it's not going to be a concern for most people. And, importantly, there's been no evidence of human to human transmission. You remember when we were talking about Covid, John, those points in time, is this transmitting human to human, that's a big concern. We're not seeing that, thankfully, with H5N1.

BERMAN: No, but obvious why it is something we want to monitor very closely.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, my fellow AARP member, thank you very much for being with us.

And you can head over to cnn.com to submit your questions on the bird flu outbreak. Sanjay will be back later this week to answer these questions.

All right, new this morning, the FDA is recalling the antidepressant duloxetine sold under the brand name Cymbalta over concerns of contamination with a toxic chemical. More than 200,000 bottles of the drug were recalled from a New Jersey plant last month due to the presence of a chemical that is toxic if swallowed and is suspected of causing cancer. The recalled drugs have been labeled as class two risk by the FDA. That is the second most extreme risk.

This morning, the clock is ticking on one of the country's most popular apps. Bytedance, the Chinese parent company of TikTok, is asking an appeals court to temporarily block a law that would force them to sell TikTok by January 19th or get banned in the United States. The Supreme Court is set to review the ban and could issue a ruling on that.

So, Jamie Foxx is speaking out for the first time about the mysterious illness that forced his hospitalization last year.

[09:00:00]

At a Netflix comedy special, he revealed he had a brain bleed that led to a stroke.