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Two Killed, Shooter Dead at Wisconsin K-12 School; Two Killed, Multiple People Injured, Shooter Dead at WI School; School Shooter Believed to be a Juvenile Student; Just Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired December 16, 2024 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Breaking news to CNN. Police say at least four people have been killed in a school shooting in Madison, Wisconsin. The shooter found dead of an apparent self-inflicted gunshot wound in the building. This happened at the Abundant Life Christian School, a private K-12 school. Here was the police Chief at the top of the news conference just a short time ago.

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CHIEF SHON BARNES, MADISON, WISCONSIN POLICE: Today is a sad, sad day not only for Madison but for our entire country where yet another police Chief is doing a press conference to speak about violence in our community, specifically in one of the places that's most sacred to me as someone who loves education and to someone who has children that are in schools.

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BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: The Chief says that injuries of those transported to the hospital range from minor to life threatening. And we also learned that some people did not make it after being transported. While speaking with reporters, the police Chief learned of the death toll rising. This was that moment.

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WOMAN #1: So we did just get an update from our command post. Five deceased at this time, five injured. So a total of 10.

WOMAN #2: So a total of 10.

WOMAN #1: So a total of 10.

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KEILAR: CNN's Veronica Miracle has been tracking the developments. Veronica, catch us up here on the latest.

VERONICA MIRACLE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Boris and Brianna, just absolutely devastating. Police say that when they arrived they got the first call at 10:57 local time. They got a call of an active shooter and when they arrived, they did not fire their weapons because the shooter had already died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound. There were multiple victims when they arrived.

As you just said, the number of dead, the number of deceased and the number of victims rose. It is currently rising. So we understand that four people are dead, including the shooter. They would not give any further information about those who have died, whether they're students or that they're staff members.

We understand that this is a relatively small Christian school. I counted about 55 staff members on their website, just a few hundred students. Here is what a neighbor and a parent had to say about this tragedy.

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JOHN DIAZ DE LEON, NEIGHBOR & FORMER PARENT AT SCHOOL: I mean, the tragedy of all what the other kids have seen. The kids saw this and heard this. I mean, right before Christmas. How tough is that to live? And the parents, the parents, where are my kids? Where are my -- you know, maybe they still don't know if their kid has survived. How tragic can that be?

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MIRACLE: And obviously this is still a very developing situation, but we understand that the injuries for those who have survived at this point, they range from minor to life threatening. Obviously that could change, but the police Chief did say that they do not believe that there is any further threat to the community at this time. Boris, Brianna.

SANCHEZ: Veronica, thank you so much.

Let's get straight to Shimon Prokupecz, because Shimon, as we often see during developing situations like this, it's tough to get a handle on certain specific details as an investigation is still ongoing. And you have an update now on the number of deceased, help us understand what you've learned.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: So we're back to the original number, Boris, three including the gunman. That's what police are saying now. There was some confusion during the press conference with the number of deceased. There was some thinking that there were two additional victims. That appears not to be the case right now.

There are people with very, very serious life threatening injuries. So that is perhaps what's causing some of the confusion. But the hospital is still dealing with that. And so the police wanted to update and revise the number back to their original number, which was at three, including the shooter.

I went back and I've been talking to police there in Madison. They're still trying to sort out the many questions that we have, like what kind of weapon was used, the range. In the age of the victims, I'm told it's from very young to some adults.

One of the dead appears to be a staff member, which the police are telling me is just going to be devastating to this community. The police saying this is a very small school, about 200 students or so. So people there really know each other. People in the community there really know each other.

And the other thing, when I spoke to the Chief again a short time ago, he said the effect of this is going to be really just so profound and it's going to really just affect this community in such a way.

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And they're still working through many of the details and many of the questions we have on why this happened, the motive and they really don't know many of the questions. They don't have many of the answers for the questions because they're still trying to investigate.

The ATF is involved and dealing with processing the crime scene. The local police are doing all that. The ATF is dealing with some of the questions about the gun and so forth and the range because they were dealing with so many different victims.

And you know, you're dealing anywhere from minor injuries to some of the more severe injuries. They're still trying to sort through exactly the age range of victims. But I'm told that some are going to be very young and then some are the adults that are the staffers. And as news of that gets out, obviously that's going to be even more devastating.

But many of the parents, the good news is that many of the parents have been notified. Sadly, with everything that's going on there, the kids have been unified with many of the parents. But there's going to be a lot of questions here, obviously Boris and Brianna, as to what happened here and how all this unfolded.

KEILAR: Certainly. And when you're -- when you're talking about the victim, Shimon, I just want to be clear here. You're talking about including folks who were injured and we know -- is that correct? And the injuries here run the gamut.

PROKUPECZ: Yeah, the injuries here run the gamut. I mean there are some very serious injuries, some life threatening injuries that the doctors in the hospital there are really working to save lives.

So yeah, the injuries are going to -- some are going to be very serious, some -- some are not so serious. But remember, you can just -- in a lot of times in these situations, people start running and they get injured while running and hiding and just trying to get away from the danger zone.

And just the trauma also, right? We never really -- you can't see that. But many of these kids that are now going to have to deal with the trauma of hearing gunshots while they're in their classrooms learning, you know, in some cases probably just having a good school day. So there's a lot of that that they're dealing with and for the families there and having to deal with all of that and really trying to make sure this community is aware of what happened and making sure that they are doing this in a very appropriate. The police, they're making sure that they're doing this in a very appropriate and mindful way in thinking of this community and thinking of the family members before they start releasing any more information.

SANCHEZ: Shimon, thank you so much for clarifying that for us. Please let us know if you hear more.

I do want to let our viewers know we have now seen a statement posted online by the school Abundant Life Christian School posting online asking for prayers. They write, quote, "Prayers requested. Today, we had an active shooter incident at ALCS. We are in the midst of following up. We will share information as we are able. Please pray for our Challenger Family.

I want to bring in CNN Security Correspondent Josh Campbell. Josh, you have covered a number of these sorts of incidents. I wonder what you make of what you've seen thus far. Specifically, the news that once police arrived on the scene responding to this shooting, the suspect, apparently a student at the school, was already deceased.

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, that is certainly notable. I mean, these incidents typically end a number of ways. Either the suspect is taken into custody without incident. Sometimes there is an exchange of gunfire between a suspect and police. And sometimes, as appears to be the case here, the gun, the shooter takes their own life.

Now, that -- the next step would be trying to identify that person, obviously to see was this a juvenile who was a student had some type of connection to the shooting? Because of course, the big question now going to be motivation.

And because they cannot interview this juvenile, obviously they then have to try to determine everything they can about, you know, from people who knew this person. Were there any utterances before shots rang out, whether there any past history between this juvenile and that school, any types of issues, disciplinary issues and the like?

You know, it's interesting, I was looking and reporting not long ago, the FBI came out with a report from their professional behavioral analysts. And they said that, you know, contrary to maybe popular belief, mass shooters don't just snap. There's this what they call a pathway to violence. And often in so many of these incidents, people that are in a shooter's orbit pick up on certain signs.

But perhaps either don't think that it's serious enough to report to police. We've seen instances where people were fearful that maybe they were overreacting by trying to point something out. But I bring that up because that is also a key part of an investigation like this, trying to determine were there those warning signs, were there things that were going on in this person's life that could have then led them down this path -- this pathway to violence? And then I think secondly, and finally one major other portion of this investigation comes down to the firearm itself.

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How did a juvenile, get a hold of a firearm and then, you know, use that here with this just horrific attack of the school? So major questions for the owner of that weapon. I'm told that ATF is on the scene now assisting in trying to do what they call a trace to try to figure out where that weapon originated from, who was the owner.

And again, that's going to be a key part of this investigation as well because we've seen sadly again, in shootings that owners of weapons have been held accountable whenever someone underage then goes on to conduct an act of violence. So a lot of different threads here that authorities are looking into.

KEILAR: All right, Josh Campbell, thank you so much as we are monitoring our breaking news here. Two killed. We do not know if these are students. We know that one is believed to be a staff member and that the suspect believed to be a juvenile at this school, Abundant Life Christian in Madison, Wisconsin is now dead. We are getting new information. We will have more after a quick break.

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SANCHEZ: We are continuing to follow breaking news out of Madison, Wisconsin, a community in shock after a deadly school shooting. Police say a gunman killed at least two people at the Abundant Life Christian School, also injuring several others. The shooter was found dead as police arrived on scene.

KEILAR: There were several people transported to area hospital with injuries. The police Chief saying that law enforcement there had actually trained for this exact scenario just a few weeks ago. And there were actually some medics training at the time that this alert went out.

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BARNES: When officers arrived, they found multiple victims suffering from gunshot wounds. We train on this almost quarterly. The last time we trained on this as commanders was approximately two weeks ago. The protocols are simple. Stop the killing, stop the dying. Find out who's doing this. The officers did that and they did that adamantly.

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KEILAR: With us now is retired FBI Supervisory Special Agent Rob D'Amico and retired NYPD Detective Michael Alcazar. Michael, I wonder for you at this point. Here we are a little more than two hours after first calls went out to law enforcement where we are in this investigation and what questions you have. MICHAEL ALCAZAR, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE: So now that they have the shooter, they have to identify him, right? Find his residence, see where he lives, see if he has any kind of like manifesto. First check to see if he has any more victims. It's not unusual that these active shooters, you know, kill their own family members.

So we have to go to his residence, find out where he got his weapon, also identify if there's any other bad actors that might be associated with this active shooter. Check his background, check any criminal history, school history. We have to go to his social media to see again to see if he made any statements, any manifestos before this shooting. All this is like background information on the shooter that is necessary to complete this investigation.

SANCHEZ: And Rob, what does this mean for families in that community as they await word of the well-being of their loved ones? What is the process of communicating with them like in a situation like this?

ROB D'AMICO, RETIRED FBI SUPERVISORY SPECIAL AGENT: Well, hopefully they've already communicated to the injured and deceased victims families and they have counseling there. That's one thing that the FBI maybe be able to help with. They have victim assistance folks that can come in and deal with this because it's going to be tremendous. It's a small school, it's a small community. It's just before Christmas. The kids were probably getting ready for Christmas break anyhow, and then this happened.

So I think it's going to be devastating. You have to get the right counselors in for the victims families and then all the other students and the witnesses to this. So it's going to be a tough time. But hopefully all the agencies and folks around there will be able to pull in and really help that along.

KEILAR: And Rob, we've been looking at video of three buses that have been lined up outside of the school. Do you have any insight what those might be used for?

D'AMICO: A couple things. One, it could be to screen the TV cameras because a lot of times with the school shootings and the cameras get there, you're seeing people walk out at very bad times. It could be a police officer having witnessed something horrible. It could be victims coming out. It could be witnesses that you really don't want on the news.

I think part of the protocol now is how do we stop some of that from going out without proper clarification of what's happening? So it could be used to that, or it could be now taking witnesses to a location for reunification with parents and such, and they're just trying to do in an orderly manner.

And getting on a bus, you can take headcounts, you can get names. So it's not just people streaming out left and right where you don't know if someone's missing or if they're not on the bus.

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So it's a way to do accountability for that.

SANCHEZ: Michael, I'm wondering, as Rob is describing, the way that some of the evidence is gathered in this kind of investigation, what the process is like when you are trying to get information specifically from traumatized children who have just endured something extremely difficult. But obviously, if they were witnesses to something that happened, may have valuable accounts that investigators would want to get.

ALCAZAR: Yeah. So when we're investigating and we're interviewing victims and witnesses, and these are children, so we have to take proper care. They might need a little bit more time. They might need their parents with them. But key is we have to separate them so that their recollection of what happened or what they saw is their own recollection.

We don't want the witnesses all commingling and sharing information, and then it might get muddled. So we like to interview them separately so we get their information as they recollect, and hopefully they can give us better information to identify the suspect. If they knew the suspect. Did he say anything, were there words, what kind of weapon he used? These are all good information. We'd like to interview the students, but preferably the adults are probably make better witnesses, especially with such a traumatic incident.

KEILAR: And, Michael, what is the objective here? Because, I mean, I'm thinking of the family members who have loved ones who are severely wounded and fighting for their lives, the family members who have lost loved ones in this, and nothing is bringing those people back. To what end will this investigation yield useful information?

The goal, I think everyone wants to know why there's -- it seems like an important part of the process. And then the fruitful part would be if you could learn something to prevent some other kind of shooting. Is that realistic? Are investigators able, in your opinion, to make strides with that?

ALCAZAR: Yeah, sadly, you know, active shooting is becoming so prevalent in our society. So we're learning a lot, unfortunately, from these events. We have to remain vigilant. People that work in schools have to be quick to identify an active shooter. They have to have established protocols. Run, hide, fight. I know it's more difficult, of course, with a school, with students.

I've done active shooter training for citizens, and most people, unfortunately, right away, their instinct is to hide. And I hate to say that, you know, you don't want to really wait if there's a possibility for you to escape the location. Hopefully an adult in a school can identify where the shooter's coming from, where the sound is coming from, and guide the students out there as quick as possible.

Of course, if you can't escape, and the shooting's happening right outside, like a room. Then you have to hide, you have to barricade, and you might have to fight. Schools are having this training now. You know, it's just a fact of life for us. I hate to say that. People don't want to believe that, but we have to be prepared for it. And it's, again, it's happening a lot. And I'm sure Rob would agree with that.

SANCHEZ: And as you were speaking, Michael, I just want to point out to our viewers, we were watching a line of very, very young children being escorted onto those buses. And it appears that law enforcement is pointing to cameras that are angled in that direction. I couldn't get the exact number. It seemed like a half dozen to a dozen kids were walked. From where you're seeing folks move across the street, and it appears that there might be more of them. You see an officer greeting them as they get close to the buses with high fives.

It's really tough to wrap your head around what a child like that has just experienced and has just endured and how they make sense of a shooting that may have killed some of their classmates and possibly one of their teachers.

Rob, as you're watching some of this unfold, I wonder what it's like for officials to handle a crime scene like this in which you have very, very young children. Again, this is A K through 12 school. Some of them may be extremely confused, and yet what they have just endured will stay with them for the rest of their lives.

D'AMICO: Yeah, so it's one of those things that, with the police forces and the EMTs and all the staff going through these, doing tabletop exercise and talking about it, and as the police said, that they just did an exercise with this, that gets you into muscle memory that what you're doing, because these are horrific crime scenes.

And then what always hit me when I was doing stuff, when I saw a child, a victim that was the same age or around the same age as one of my children.

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I have four kids. And when I saw that, it really kind of hit home more just because it gets more personal. Not that it's different when you see it, but it's like, wow, my kid was that age. I had an incident at a school that my kids were in. Same thing happens. All of a sudden, it's now really personal.

But the police officers, they're there, they've done the exercises. So hopefully it gets into muscle memory of what they're doing. And then hopefully they can relate to the kids, that they're safe. That's the biggest thing, letting them know they're safe and then getting one the parents and maybe, you know, therapists or counselors with them to start talking about it, because you can't do that too soon.

So hopefully that was in the planning of these exercises. When do you bring in the parents and then when do you bring in counselors and therapists to help with these kids? Especially the young ones, but older ones too. They're going to have issues for the rest of their life that you talked about. But those first interactions, I think are very important how that turns out.

KEILAR: Yeah, such a good point, Rob. I think so many people connect with that. They have kids, they are going to have kids. They have had kids these age -- this age, and I think they're right there with you thinking about this situation.

I think the other thing, Rob, is, you know, not all schools in America have active shooter drills. They have become increasingly common. It is a possibility that this school has had them. Talk a little bit about how some schools prepare and also how some are choosing not to do the drills.

D'AMICO: I think it's negligent not to do the drills. And everyone says, we never thought us. And that's always the common thing. And these are small towns and small schools, and it's happening still. So I think it has to be mandatory for, you know, state certification or local certification that your school has to participate so many times.

And I think you have to do it by age. A kindergartner is going to be a lot different from a 12th grader and what you do and what you tell them. And it's going to be more important for the adult or staff member with a bunch of kindergarteners, having them do something as opposed to what you can tell someone in high school to be able to do.

But some of it, as the gentleman talked about, was hiding is not always the safest thing to do, because, you know, I see that as I've seen school shootings where they hid and then that just let the shooter work his way down to that room and then go in and kill him. And it's horrible sitting there waiting.

And I don't know if this -- I told my kids, if you're on the first floor and you think he's right outside the door, break a window and just go out the window and run, run as fast as you can and as far as you can until you are away from this. You don't need a bunch of kids breaking windows. But if you're on the first floor, I'd much rather break a window and I'd tell them to throw a blanket or anything or books over the glass and get out of there. Because sitting and waiting is not the answer in my book.

So there's active training going on. I think it needs to be mandatory for a school to have accreditation to do it. But it also does have to be age based because this school was K through 12. So you have a very big range of students that you're dealing with and you can't treat a kindergartner as you can, you know, a high schooler.

Sanchez: Rob and Michael, please stay with us.

If you're just joining us, two people have been killed, at least six injured, in a private school in Wisconsin, the Abundant Life Christian School in Madison. The shooter dead of an apparent self-inflicted wound. Stay with CNN News Central. We're going to take a quick break. We'll bring you the latest in just moments.

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