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School Shooting in Madison, Wisconsin, Kills Two and Injures Six; Police Investigating How 15-Year-Old Female School Shooter in Wisconsin Obtained Gun She Used in Shooting. White House: No Signs Drone Activity is a Threat to Public Safety; Fifteen-Year-Old Female Shooter Kills Teacher, Student at Wisconsin School, Interview with Rep. Gwen Moore (D-WI). Aired 8-8:30a ET.

Aired December 17, 2024 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

REP. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI, (D-IL): -- very simple. As the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeal repeatedly said, this is a national security threat under the control of the Chinese Communist Party. They have hacked repeatedly numerous data sets, collected the data of hundreds of millions of Americans. And as the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals said, there's no reason not to believe that that would happen with TikTok as well.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: It's going to be an interesting couple of weeks here to see what the Supreme Court does, what then happens by the 19th, and what happens immediately after. Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi, thanks so much for explaining it so well.

A brand new hour of CNN NEWS CENTRAL starts right now.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: New details about the deadly school shooting that has shattered a community in Wisconsin. The ATF now investigating how the shooter, a 15-year-old female student, got that gun. The police chief also saying they're looking into a possible manifesto they've been made aware of posted online. But so many questions still around all of this.

Also, the drone mystery continues. National security experts batting down conspiracy theories. Residents of New Jersey not buying the explanation coming from the federal government. The White House saying just now and again today they have found no threat to the public.

Also, those hours that seem to slip away from you and evaporate as you click through social media, scroll through all of your apps, there's a word for it -- "brain rot". Sanjay Gupta explains the science behind it.

I'm Kate Bolduan with John Berman and Sara Sidner. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

BERMAN: All right, breaking news. Just a short time ago, we spoke to the police chief in Madison, Wisconsin, and we got an update into the investigation into the school shooting there where a 15-year-old girl shot and killed a teacher and also a teenage student. Six other people were injured. Two of them are students. They are still in critical condition.

So after our interview, the police chief's office called us to clarify that one of the teachers who was injured was a substitute teacher. Also, he suggested that at this time they are not considering specific charges against the parents, but that could change. They're still investigating whether or not negligence may have played a role here. Also, at this point, the chief would not confirm how the 15-year-old student got this handgun. Overnight, a source close to the investigation said the shooter planned the attack. This is what the chief just told us about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF SHON BARNES, MADISON, WISCONSIN, POLICE: We have been made aware of a manifesto, if you want to call that, or some type of letter that's been posted by someone who alleged to be her friend. We haven't been able to locate that person yet, but that's something we're going to work on today. Well also be looking through her effects, if she had a computer or cell phone, to see if there are any transmissions between her and someone else, and that will give us an idea of what type of planning.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, I want to get to CNN's Whitney Wild, who rushed to Madison, Wisconsin, to cover all the developments there. What are you learning this morning, Whitney?

WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, we still don't know why this happened, but we do know who this was. This was 15-year-old Natalie Rupnow. Police say that she went by Samantha. As you said, there are still many more questions to answer. Police have not yet identified or detailed any kind of motive here as they continue to work through those details.

John, this all started at 10:57 yesterday morning. Police say that it was confined to a study hall that had a mix of students from different grades. Horrifyingly, a second grader was the one who called 911, John, just a second grader. Police making that point very clearly and saying at one point, let me just let you sit with that for a moment, because it is just so tragic. Police were inside that building by 11:00 a.m. By 11:05, they alerted that the shooter was down and began life saving measures on other students. John, here's what some of those kids inside the building heard.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, we heard them. And then some people started crying. And then we just waited till the police came. And then they escorted us out. I was scared. Why did they do that? Why?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was getting ready for lunch. So it was basically lunchtime. And then I just heard sobbing, and there was a teacher, and she was screaming like, my leg, help, help!

(END VIDEO CLIP) WILD: John, there is some good news to share this morning. Two people who had been injured were released, but still, sadly, others are fighting for their lives, John.

[08:05:01]

BERMAN: They are still in critical condition. Whitney Wild, to hear that girl describe sounds we can only hope that no other student hears. Appreciate it.

Sara?

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, the Wisconsin shooting marks the 83rd school shooting this year, a record number of shootings. Joining me now, Daniel Brunner, retired FBI supervisory special agent, and Juliette Kayyem, CNN senior national security analyst joining us this morning. Thank you both.

Daniel, I'll start with you. Where does the investigation go from here? Is it trying to figure out if anyone knew of a plan or assisted the shooter? Or is it looking at what the motive behind this may be since the shooter is dead?

DANIEL BRUNNER, RETIRED FBI SUPERVISORY SPECIAL AGENT: well, I think an investigation like this, it's all hands on deck. They're going to be looking at every possible angle, every possible motive, the pathway to violence. They want to figure out where she went off the rails, where she deviated from what is considered the norm. And if this manifesto truly is her words, then they want to loop using that as the blueprint. They're going to talk to every single person that was close to her.

Clearly, they've already interviewed her family. They're going to look at everything in her electronic presence. They're going to try and understand where she was during this route. They want to look for red flags. They want to see if there were red flags that were missed, who missed them. They want to document all these things. They want to understand all of these things, not only to conduct the investigation, but they want to understand from this incident also to prevent future incidents, to prevent future situations like this. So it's going to be an ongoing. And like I said, the FBI, ATF, Wisconsin police department, they're all going to be working together.

SIDNER: Juliette, I do want to just note how unusual it is that this is a female student committing the school shootings. I mean, how often does this happen? Because we always, you know, I think people took sort of a gasp when they found that it was a girl of, I think, 15 years old?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yes, I was looking at the data yesterday because I had the same reaction. In fact, I couldn't remember a time in which I remember that the shooter was a female. And there's just about nine cases over the last year of a female shooter in what in what would be called a school related shooting. So that may not even be a mass shooting or any fatalities. And it's interesting because the data on safety and security and

gender stereotypes, I'm willing to admit that, is that men generally shoot for sort of what they call aggressive antisocial behavior. In other words, they are lashing out at the world, and a school may be a perfect place because they had gone there, as we've seen in some cases, or they are there.

Woman killers, and this is, again, gender stereotypes, tend to be sort of murders of intimacy. Someone that they know, someone that they feel like they were betrayed by, someone that may have harmed them. And so the investigators are -- you can't ignore this. Investigators are going to look to sort of why did she choose that school? Were the victims chosen for a reason? Although we've learned it's a substitute teacher, so it may have been random. And what will the manifesto in terms of their investigation, what will it tell us in terms of her motivation? Because she does fall so far outside of the norm and the data at this stage.

SIDNER: And I do just want to be careful with the police chief said it was a manifesto or a letter of some sort. There's also been talk of perhaps it was like a social media. No, because we did hear that from the chief. He did use the word "manifesto." And I think we just need to be careful. Sometimes people think manifesto is this big, very well researched and thought out thing. But she is a 15-year-old student at the school.

Daniel, I do want to ask you about what the chief talked about earlier today when it comes to the parents. We have seen two parents in two separate cases ending up being charged in these cases. The first one, everyone remembers, it was in Michigan. The parents of that Oxford school shooter were charged and convicted. And then more recently, in Winder, Georgia, the father of the alleged shooter and the shooter himself, the alleged shooter himself, both charged in that case.

Moments ago, I want you to listen to what the Madison police chief said to John Berman.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: As of last night, you were still questioning the parents. At this time, any reason to expect that they could be charged with any sort of crime here?

CHIEF SHON BARNES, MADISON, WISCONSIN, POLICE: Well, we will certainly look at all facts and aspects of this case as they were voluntarily giving information that certainly helps to determine if they were involved or if they were -- this was pre-planned.

[08:10:02]

We don't have any evidence that it was. But we also want to look at if the parents may have been negligent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: I'm curious from you, Daniel, is this going to be standard practice now, that the parents are investigated in these cases? And we heard from the chief that they are fully cooperating. And so far there's nothing of the sort that is happening. But do you think this will be standard practice now?

BRUNNER: Absolutely. I think it absolutely should be, because as you discussed here before, that word would he used, "negligence." That is the key word. If -- you know a gun is not dangerous by itself, but if it's not properly handled, if it's not properly individuals having the gun are not trained if they don't secure it in the home safely and they make it accessible to young children, even 17 years old, that's illegal in the state of Wisconsin. They cannot purchase a weapon until they're 18 years old. That's negligence. They're not keeping that weapon secure. There needs to be followed. There needs to be repercussions. The parents who are responsible for that gun when they purchased it, negligently housed it in the, in the, in their home.

So yes, I think that it should be looked at. And I think from here on out, yes, I think that should definitely motivate a lot of people to start looking at their homes, looking at how they house their weapons and how they're kept in the house. But negligence should be investigated. It should be looked at, including if the parents missed the red flags along this pathway to violence, not only the negligence to the gun, but if they missed a red flag and chose not to address it. If she made overt actions and overt statements that she wants to kill and they didn't do it, that should be considered too. But everything should be looked at.

SIDNER: Daniel Brunner, Juliette Kayyem, thank you both so much for your great analysis. Really appreciate it.

Kate?

BOLDUAN: After weeks of wondering what exactly is going on in the skies over multiple states, House lawmakers are set to get a new briefing on the drone mystery today.

And new details are also coming out today about the atrocities committed in Syria by the now ousted dictator Bashar al-Assad, and his regime. We have that for you.

And also running the numbers on the rising skepticism in childhood vaccines and what it means, and why its back in the headlines because of RFK Jr.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:16:55]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, the White House is trying to reassure the public once again, saying once again that the nighttime drone sightings that have sparked concern across multiple states now are not a threat to public safety and pose no National Security threats either.

Moments ago, I spoke to the White House National Security spokesman, John Kirby about this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ADM. JOHN KIRBY (RET), COORDINATOR FOR STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS AT THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL: I mean, when people shoot video of that, Kate, I mean, you're seeing the lights on these things, the navigation lights. That's what is required if you're going to be flying in US airspace at night, are navigation lights.

So clearly, they are being operated in a lawful and legal way and we've seen nothing from their behavior, nothing that tells us there is a public safety threat or a National Security threat.

I do want to add one point, though. We've still got about a hundred leads that the FBI is following up on and if we learn something that contradicts that or something more, something additional, something more specific, my goodness, we are going to come public and we are going to talk about it.

We have been trying to be as transparent with the American people as we can. But I think it is also important to remember that there are a million drones registered with the FAA and thousands upon thousands fly in US airspace legally every single day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: And today, the House Intelligence Committee is going to receive a classified briefing on these drone sightings.

Joining me right now is the executive director of the Commercial Drone Alliance, Lisa Ellman. She is an expert on drones and law and someone who knows the limitations of these laws right now.

It's great to see you, Lisa.

So when I talked to John Kirby this morning, he said they've not detected any threats, but he also -- and right there at the end I thought was important. He says what this whole episode shows is just how many drones there are out there today.

You're an expert in this space. How would you describe the explosion in drone usage these days?

LISA ELLMAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, COMMERCIAL DRONE ALLIANCE: Yes, well, first of all, thank you, Kate, for having me. It is great to be with you today.

And yes, the airspace is evolving, and that is a good thing, right? The technology has moved quickly forward. And what used to be considered toys are now tools for industry and public agencies.

And the use of commercial drones, legitimate commercial drone uses are growing exponentially by the day, right, for amazing life-saving use cases such as infrastructure inspection, inspecting our bridges, you know, crop spraying, saving lives, medical drone delivery. That's just a few examples. But that said, you know, all technologies can be used for good and for bad, and drones are no exception there. So the commercial drone industry is very important for our industry to engage with communities to utilize a drone digital license plate known as remote identification, to be transparent and electronically conspicuous in the airspace.

Where there are drones that are not engaging with communities, not following the rules. Of course, there we worry and the policies have really lagged behind, Kate, that -- you know, and there is a lot that can be done here, including by those in Washington.

I sympathize with the frustration of millions of Americans across the across the country who just want to know what is happening, who want to know what is flying in the air. That's a very fair question to ask.

[08:20:06]

And, you know, there is a lot that can be done here in Washington from a policy perspective to close the gap between the technology and the policy.

BOLDUAN: And that's one thing we've heard over and over, is that this also has shown not just how many drones there are out there these days, it is that, once again, technology has advanced much faster than the laws and regulations around them.

But there is, at its core, Lisa, is the fear. It is not of the great commercial uses of it, it is the fear of the rogue drone, the nefarious use of a drone.

And I feel like we've heard throughout these weeks is that communities feel like they don't have the authority to be able to handle and investigate drones.

How limited is our nation's ability right now to respond to a rogue drone?

ELLMAN: It is incredibly limited, Kate. That is why we need legislation, and there has been legislation on this pending for years that would fix this problem.

So unfortunately, under current law, drones are treated essentially as manned aircrafts and there are laws that would criminalize, for example, hacking into a computer or hacking into a landline telephone that could also potentially apply to drone detection technologies, which at the end of the day, what we all want here is information. We want transparency. We want to know what is in the air, like you said.

There is technology out there that can solve these problems. Much of it is currently illegal under the law, and that is why there is bipartisan consensus legislation pending in Congress that has been pending for years now that needs to be passed. I really hope that the House and the Senate, you know, there is a Senate version which we've been on the record supporting. There is a House version that's been much improved over the last year. Bring the House and the Senate together and let's get this done before the holidays, because this will do a lot in terms of closing some of these legal gaps that our towns and communities are feeling right now.

BOLDUAN: So interesting.

When you hear people, including the incoming president, suggest that the most immediate solution in the absence of what you're talking about is to just shoot these things out of the sky, you've got New Jersey saying, Dear God, please do not try to do that, people.

Just your reaction as someone in this space of just that is the level that people have gotten is like, maybe we should just shoot them out of the sky.

ELLMAN: Yes, yes. Well, again, look, I understand the frustration. We all want to know what's going on. We all want to know what's in the air.

But legislation is key. The use of remote identification, the use of a digital drone license plate, like we talked about, it is important to note that there are very legitimate commercial drone uses out there that are growing by the day, and that is a really good thing.

So we certainly don't want to, you know, shoot and kind of ask questions later. We need the information in order to understand who is flying and when and that is why transparency is so important, electronic conspicuity drones should be -- you know, talking to each other. The commercial drone industry is engaging with communities for that reason.

It is incredibly important for the drone community to build public trust. But of course, we want to enable the good while preventing the bad and we do need to enable the limited use of, in case of rogue or unauthorized drones flying where they shouldn't be that present a threat, there needs to be ways for towns and communities to respond, and that is this legislation is so key.

BOLDUAN: I am not even going to pretend to understand all of the ins and outs of drone technology or the laws that we need to regulate them.

Just know that this episode seems to expose that this bipartisan legislation, they need to be taking another really close look at this right now, because there has got to be some kind of a solution.

Lisa, it is great to see you. Thanks for coming in -- John.

ELLMAN: Thanks for having me.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, "This is all a fantasy. This never happened." The lawyer for Jay-Z is speaking out about the about the rape claims against his client.

And a bomb hidden in an electric scooter kills a Russian general accused of using chemical weapons in Ukraine. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:28:32]

BERMAN: This morning, the Police Chief in Madison, Wisconsin told us they have not determined how a 15-year-old girl got the handgun she used to kill a teacher and student at a Christian middle school in Madison.

The Chief also told us they are trying to track down information on a so-called manifesto.

With us now is Congresswoman Gwen Moore, a Democrat from Wisconsin.

Congresswoman, thank you so much for joining us this morning. What questions do you have about this case?

REP. GWEN MOORE (D-WI): This is just yet another blockbusting episode in American life where we see yet another school shooting. And as often as this happened this past year, you know, this is our, I believe, 323rd time. You just can't get used to it.

I mean, what we can't wrap our heads around this time is that there is a female shooter involved. And so my heart goes out to all the families and children, intergenerationally, and let's not forget the parents of the shooter, who have also suffered a tremendous loss. I mean, this is horrible.

And, you know, my thought is that we don't have a lot of information, and that's why it is really important for us to support efforts that people have made consistently to have the CDC and other private foundations really try to study what the cause of this violence is.

You know, we already know that there are too many guns. You know, a lot of people say it is the mental health or it is video games. We don't know because we refuse to even study this phenomenon. But it is yet another American tragedy, the loss of unfulfilled life and it is really close to home.

This is not Colorado or Texas, this is Wisconsin.

[08:30:36]