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Presidential Electors Meet; Wisconsin School Shooting Investigation; Interview With Rep. Josh Gottheimer (D-NJ). Aired 1- 1:30p ET

Aired December 17, 2024 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:38]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Next hour, we will get an update from Madison police after a 15-year-old girl killed a teacher and a fellow student at her Christian school, a community that is reeling from the tragedy as major questions remain unanswered. How did she get the gun? Who owned it? And what was the motive?

Plus, 5,000 tips, zero answers. Members of Congress scheduled to receive a classified briefing on the recent flurry of reported drone sightings across the U.S. We're going to speak with one of those lawmakers.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Plus, a brazen assassination carried out just four miles from the Kremlin, a bomb hidden in an electric scooter killing a Russian general accused of using chemical weapons in Ukraine.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KEILAR: Hello. I'm Brianna Keilar, alongside Boris Sanchez, here in Washington.

And, right now, investigators are trying to understand why a 15-year- old girl opened fire at her school in Madison, Wisconsin, killing two people and injuring several others, as new details emerge giving us a clear picture of how this tragedy unfolded.

According to police, a second grader called 911 when shots rang out at Abundant Life Christian School, and the first officer arrived on scene within minutes. We now know one teacher and one student were killed. And, of the six injured, two of them are fighting for their lives. Two others are in stable condition.

SANCHEZ: Right now, we're waiting for an update from police set to happen in the next hour as they comb through evidence to piece together what may have led up to this shooting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHON BARNES, MADISON, WISCONSIN, POLICE CHIEF: We have been made aware of a manifesto, if you want to call that, or some type of letter that's been posted by someone who alleged to be her friend. We haven't been able to locate that person yet, but that's something we're going to work on today.

We will also be looking through her effects, if she had a computer, cell phone, to see if there are any transmissions between her and someone else.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: CNN's Natasha Chen has been following this story for us.

Natasha, where does the investigation stand right now?

NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right.

As you heard the chief just say, they are working on locating that person who posted the alleged manifesto or the letter from the shooter. Police have said that they don't have any record of previous interactions with this teenager. They are working with her parents, who are being cooperative at the moment.

They're trying to figure out whether the gun that was used in this shooting was owned by or possessed by the parents. And they're also asking ATF to do a trace on the gun, where it was purchased, when was it purchased, by whom, basically tracing the steps all the way to how it got in the hands of this 15-year-old student.

This second grader, as you mentioned, had called 911, a very traumatizing moment. This apparently came out of a call from a classroom in a study hall, where there were students of mixed grade levels. Here are a couple of the students just reeling from what happened that day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ADLER JEAN-CHARLES, SIXTH GRADER: We heard them, and then some people started crying. And then we just waited until the police came. And then they exported us out to the church.

I was scared. Why did they do that? Why?

NORA GOTTSCKALK, SECOND GRADER: I just heard shouting. And there was a teacher. And she was screaming like: "Ah, my leg. Help. Help."

QUESTION: Were you scared?

GOTTSCKALK: I was really scared and I was really sad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHEN: An incredible thing for a young person to witness like that and for one of them to have the wherewithal to call 911.

And, in fact, we're told that the school actually had an active shooter training just earlier in the year, something that's all too real for many schools across the country. As you mentioned, now, this is the 83rd U.S. school shooting in 2024.

That outpaces the number in 2023 for the most number of school shootings in the U.S. since CNN started tracking this information in 2008, just an incredible amount for this Madison community to deal with and for the country.

We are expecting, as you said, another update in about one hour. They may release victims' names, but they said that they would be making sure all family members have been notified before they do that -- Boris and Brianna.

[13:05:03]

SANCHEZ: Natasha, thank you so much for the update.

Let's dig deeper now with retired Maryland State Police commander Neill Franklin and CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst John Miller.

Thank you both for being with us.

John, first to you.

What major questions are you looking for police to address when they give this update at 2:00 p.m.?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, I think the two major questions that I would be most pointed on would be the origin of the gun.

The ATF trace will say who the company that manufactured it was and where they shipped it. And that would be a federally licensed firearms dealer, most likely a gun store. Then, who purchased it?

But in the cases where we have seen across the country in these school shootings carried out by students in high school or younger, those guns most often come from the home, were legally purchased, were legally possessed. And when we heard the chief yesterday, he said that they are looking into whether that's the case.

So, if they interviewed the parents and the parents cooperated, the likelihood is that they know that.

KEILAR: And, Neill, what are the next steps in this investigation as police are trying to figure out what the motive is?

NEILL FRANKLIN, FORMER BALTIMORE POLICE MAJOR: Yes, so I think the next steps, as you heard, and I heard the chief this morning doing his press briefing, interviewing friends, trying to find a little bit more about the so-called manifesto that's out there, might be out there.

Digging through her cell phone, digging through if she has a laptop, social media, and they're going to be searching anywhere that they can to find information regarding a possible motive into why she may have done this. The chief also mentioned some things this morning I think are very

interesting and very important, two things, mental health. And we hear this time and time again, the mental health of the child, what she was dealing with, if anything. Obviously, there's something there, in my opinion.

And, of course, the second thing, as you were just talking about, access to the firearm that was used. Those are, I think, the two most important things. And, hopefully, we can gain information going forward to help prevent similar shootings down the road.

KEILAR: John, I think we're all at this point, having covered these for decades now, that we don't want to give the shooter attention for something that has become so horrifically commonplace. We want to give attention to the victims. We want to give attention to the people who are actually doing something to stop this from happening again, which is, let's face it, likely not going to be Congress.

It's going to have to be school administrators, teachers, students, and it's going to have to be parents. So what do they need to know here that folks in law enforcement have studied about them being the eyes and the ears?

MILLER: Well, the FBI behavioralists, behavioral analysis unit has done a tremendous amount of work on this.

And what they have learned after studying all of these shootings is, these school shooters, we say pressure built up, personal issues came to a head and they snapped. They don't snap. Every study has told us again and again that they see, they plan, they prepare, they arm, they map these things out, sometimes over days, often over weeks, in the case of the Nashville school shooter, literally over years.

And during that time, they give off a number of signals that people around them, if they are trained to recognize them, should see. And the FBI has at FBI.gov/Prevent an entire kit of the list of 15 of these potential tells, whether you see a cluster of them or a couple of them.

And then they get this, which is people don't want to call the police on their friend, especially if they might be wrong. But it talks about finding someone you can trust, a teacher, a coach, a guidance counselor, a parent, a friend, and ways to intervene, which I think, since we already know gun control is a discussion that's going to drag on for the rest of time, this is a solution that could start to happen tomorrow if people knew what the resources were and where to find them.

SANCHEZ: Neill, what do you think?

FRANKLIN: Yes.

Well, first of all, John is absolutely worried as it relates to those things regarding mental health and not snapping. But I also think, on the other side of this regarding access to these firearms, and John also mentioned that, more times than not, it comes from the household. That's where the firearm comes from.

I think we have to do a better job in educating parents, people who have firearms in the home, a better job of educating them and expressing the importance of safety with those firearms, a safe, a lockbox, something to prevent their children or friends of children gaining access to these firearms.

So, again, the mental health that John was talking about and folks that hear something, friends that hear something going to someone they trust. And the second thing, access, if we can get folks to secure their firearms better and do a better job of educating.

[13:10:12]

And that education should also take place in the school at PTA meetings with parents as well.

KEILAR: It's very good advice.

SANCHEZ: Yes, definitely.

Neill, I was also wondering, when it comes to this reported manifesto that police are trying to determine the veracity of, what exactly is that process like to figure out if the person who committed the shooting yesterday actually wrote out what supposedly a friend had provided police?

FRANKLIN: Well, first of all, if it's online, you have I.P. addresses that the police are very good of tracking.

And, if so, they can get the assistance from the FBI with that. So, if it's electronic, tracking the I.P. address, seeing if there's anything in the young girl's cell phone. It had to be communicated from her some kind of way. And, typically, it's electronic. Researching her writings.

Is there anything -- if they have a copy of this manifesto, are there any writings in any of her personal effects that have the same verbiage or parts of the verbiage? It's going to take a while. It's painstaking to dig up this information. But that, coupled with the interviews of friends and so on, if it is in fact true, they will find that out. They're very good at this.

KEILAR: John Miller, Neill Franklin, thank you so much to both of you. We do appreciate your time today.

FRANKLIN: Brianna, Boris, thank you.

SANCHEZ: And still to come this hour, a top Russian general killed not far from the Kremlin, a source telling CNN that Ukraine was behind the attack. Wait until you hear how they carried this out.

Plus, the House Intel Committee about to get a classified briefing on those drone sightings that have caused anxiety across several states. We're going to be speaking to a member of that committee when we come back. KEILAR: And state electors are meeting right now to cast their votes

in the 2024 election.

You're watching CNN NEWS CENTRAL. And we will be right back.

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[13:16:40]

KEILAR: President-elect Trump's presidential victory is being officially confirmed today. I think you knew this, but hundreds of electors are gathering in state capitols nationwide to do the official business of casting Electoral College votes.

And you were looking here at the proceedings that are under way in St. Paul, Minnesota. It's a process, of course, that is largely ceremonial.

SANCHEZ: It is mostly symbolic, but it is a big honor. And, today, 13 Republicans involved in the 2020 fake electors plot are getting to sign the legit certificates, including some who faced criminal charges for their actions four years ago.

CNN chief national affairs correspondent Jeff Zeleny is here.

Jeff, walk us through this process.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Look, it is ceremonial, but I think we learned four years ago that some ceremonies are disrupted. So this is an important part of the process. Yes, the election was some 42 days or so ago, and Donald Trump is going to begin his second term in office in 34 days or so.

But today is a key part of this becoming official. So we're seeing state by state by state happening right now. It's under way in Wisconsin, in Nevada, as we saw there in Minnesota, some other states as well. But during the 3:00 Eastern hour this afternoon, the state of Texas will put the former president and soon-to-be-next president over the top in terms of 270 electoral votes.

So that is something that this is a peaceful transition of power. What is unusual this time around, there are 13 fake electors from four years ago, some of whom are under criminal charges, who are electors this time as well. So that is, I guess, the hangover, if you will, of when Donald Trump refused to accept his defeat four years ago.

The difference today is, Kamala Harris is accepting her defeat. And, ironically, at the end of all of this early next month, she will preside in the Senate chamber over these electors actually becoming certified. And she will do as Al Gore did in 2000, accept her own defeat. That is how it should work in the United States of America.

SANCHEZ: That's the process of democracy and a democratic handover of power.

Jeff Zeleny, thank you so much. ZELENY: You bet.

SANCHEZ: Let's discuss this and more with Democratic New Jersey Congressman Josh Gottheimer. He's a member of the House Intelligence Committee.

Congressman, thank you so much for being with us.

REP. JOSH GOTTHEIMER (D-NJ): Thanks for having me.

SANCHEZ: I do want to talk to you about drones and the drones that have been hovering over New Jersey and parts of the Northeast.

But, first, I did want to ask you something about the electoral process, because, yesterday, some of your Democratic colleagues on the Senate side unveiled an amendment to abolish the Electoral College. I wonder if you would support it.

GOTTHEIMER: I haven't seen that.

But what I do support, as you were just talking about, is, of course, a peaceful transfer of power. We have a lot of work to do this coming Congress. And as you know, it's going to be a very narrow majority in the House.

And it's going to take many of us working together to make sure the country runs, including, by the way, this week on our annual appropriations measures to keep the government funded and running and helping our veterans and our first responders and our families with support for childcare and other key issues.

It's going to take us working together. And that's what I have been very focused on, as you know, as co-chair of the Problem Solvers Caucus, something, is, how do we going to make sure we govern this country?

SANCHEZ: And before I get to the drone aspect of our conversation, are you confident that the government will remain open past Friday's deadline?

GOTTHEIMER: Well, we're still waiting, as you know, for the Republicans to actually put out a bill, put out text.

[13:20:03]

But I will tell you this. It's going to take Democrats and Republicans to get that bill across the finish line. I'm hoping they get it out, because the government is set the shut down, as you just pointed out, soon. And we're waiting for it. So we -- I'm ready to read it as soon as they can get this out the door.

SANCHEZ: Now onto this controversial subject.

You have been outspoken in your eagerness to get information for folks, for your constituents, for folks in your home state. You also set up a Web site where people could submit information on these drone sightings, not just in the Northeast, but from across the country.

I wonder if you could take us through some of the tips that you have been getting.

GOTTHEIMER: Well, we have been getting -- and we're focusing, of course, on Jersey, where I live and where we have seen a surge of drone activity has been reported by so many people.

And what I have said is, listen, I'm willing, given that there's so many bits of information out there, to set up a site where people can send us their information, so that I can pass that along to the FBI, to DHS, and, of course, the Intelligence Committee, where I sit, and to the intelligence world to make sure we get this information shared.

The key here is transparency and making sure people know that we're not telling them or insulting them and saying that they're not seeing what they're seeing, but actually explain to them what they are. This is where I have called on the FBI, Homeland Security, and others to please do a briefing right away, come out, explain to the country and to the people that I represent what they know, right?

And that transparency, that information is critically important. And then, of course, to give local law enforcement, and I have got bipartisan legislation to do this, the tools they need to be able to monitor and ensure this isn't the Wild West of drones, right, that actually only the drones that are licensed and should be in the air are in the air.

I'm not talking about recreational drones that you have in your backyard, right, as someone puts -- you get for the holidays. I'm talking about these large drones that I'm concerned are over military bases, as have been reported, over reservoirs, over critical infrastructure, and over airports.

We got to make sure that we keep people safe, but we got to give people information. Otherwise, as you know, people just wonder what's going on.

SANCHEZ: Yes. And folks speculate. And I have heard from friends that live in the area that there are a range of theories. Some folks think that it's a foreign operation.

One of your fellow New Jersey congressmen suggested that there was an Iranian mother ship off the Atlantic coast. What's your hypothesis? What's the most likely scenario of what it is that you're seeing up in the sky at night?

GOTTHEIMER: Well, here's what I know.

I have been briefed by the FBI and Homeland and reached out multiple times and feel very good saying that I believe, based on what they know and what they're able to scan, that there's no imminent threat to public safety. That said, what I want to know is more information about where these are all coming from, why the surge in sightings.

And,obviously, I have an Intelligence Committee briefing, as I mentioned, coming up in the next couple hours and hope to learn more. I feel good about the fact that there's no foreign threats here. That said, I think people should know, well, what is this surge of activity? Where are they coming from? How do we make sure that we monitor the skies properly?

I have called for an FAA traffic monitoring of the sky, just like we do at our airports with planes, so we know what's out there and know what's going on. You can't have just people throwing up drones everywhere, these unlicensed, unwelcome drones, and making sure that they're not capturing information or anything else.

That's the kind of stuff I want to get to the bottom of and I want to make sure that they brief the public on, not put out like a drip, drip of statements. I mean come out, as the FBI and Homeland Security should, and give a proper public briefing and tell people, answer their questions.

So, otherwise, you leave a huge vacuum, and people will just fill it with their own information.

SANCHEZ: Right.

GOTTHEIMER: And it's time for them to put out the facts.

SANCHEZ: But if you get information at that classified briefing that, for security reasons, you can't share publicly, how do you then go about reassuring folks that there is no imminent threat?

Because, if you hear from officials there's no imminent threat, but we also have no idea what this is, how sure can you be that there is no imminent threat?

GOTTHEIMER: Well, listen, there are certain ways to communicate to the public without specifics. And, as you know, what I learn in the classified setting, I can't discuss publicly.

However, you will know information enough that I think -- and what I have learned from the FBI and DHS, I believe they can go out publicly with and talk about. And, obviously, what I learn based on that, there's ways to communicate with the public without giving all the specifics, but to make people feel better that they shouldn't have to worry when they look at the sky or what's flying overhead.

That, to me, is the most important thing, right? I just want people to not have to worry. And they're seeing stuff, right? They're sending me stuff. I know they're seeing things. I have heard from local law enforcement that they have seen things with their own eyes.

So, the bottom line is, we have got to address that. We can't just tell -- insult people and tell them they're not seeing things. I think that's the wrong answer. And you saw the secretary of homeland security, he came out and said this weekend, finally, yes, people are seeing drones, right, instead of telling people they're not.

[13:25:05] So I think the key, again, here is transparency, information. Don't insult people and tell them they aren't seeing things. Explain to them exactly what's going on. Then I believe people will feel better.

SANCHEZ: Congressman Josh Gottheimer, we look forward to hearing what comes of that classified briefing. Thanks so much for joining us.

GOTTHEIMER: Thanks for having me.

SANCHEZ: Of course.

So, RFK Jr. says that he is all in for the polio vaccine. That's despite an attorney connected to him filing to get an approval for that vaccine revoked. Up next, we're going to speak to a doctor whose father invented the polio vaccine that saved so many lives.

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