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Court Hearing for CEO Murder Suspect; Sen. Dick Durbin (D-IL) is Interviewed about a Government Shutdown; Laser Strikes Increase over New Jersey. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired December 19, 2024 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[08:34:28]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, happening right now, the man accused of murdering UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson is in a Pennsylvania courtroom for back to back hearings. You're looking at the outside of it, obviously, right there in Pennsylvania. We saw Luigi Mangione arrive to court a short time ago. Less eventful than the first time that he showed up to that courtroom.

The first hearing is about to begin or will be beginning any moment. And this has to do with some of the local charges that he is facing in Pennsylvania. And then you see right there, 9:00 a.m., his extradition hearing. That is what is up next, and that is what everyone's waiting for in terms of the moment, as it could be significant into what happens next and how quickly.

[08:35:07]

Back with us now, as we're going to be getting more information coming from inside the courtroom to bring it to you, Elie Honig back here with us, as well as CNN's Brynn Gingras.

And you were one of the first people on the ground when we started learning the details of this shooting taking place.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, how far we've come.

BOLDUAN: How far we've come, Brynn, exactly.

GINGRAS: Yes. So, we're waiting for that really the judge swap that's going to happen between the 8:30 hearing and then the 9:00 hearing. They're all going to stay in that same courtroom. Danny Freeman is reporting. He's inside the courtroom. Can't actually give comms right now, so we really don't know what's going on exactly at this moment. But we certainly know those hearings are expected to begin.

So like Kate said, they are going to start with those charges in Pennsylvania. Then they're going to move to this extradition hearing. We are hearing from his attorney that he's going to waive his extradition. And then the process begins of him being in custody of the NYPD. Now, we're still trying to fine tune how he's actually going to get to

New York. Is he going to go by helicopter? Are they going to drive him? We're not quite sure about that yet. But certainly going to be here by the end of day today. And that is when he is going to face those charges. Those 11 charges that were unsealed just two days ago here in New York.

Unclear - Eli might know more - about when he might be in front of a judge on those charges. But another part of this is now we're hearing from Kara Scannell that he's going to face federal charges. So, it's unclear also when we might hear the unsealing of those charges.

So, of course, once he gets here, we know that he has to be booked. He'll be brought to 100 Center, which is the main courthouse, if you remember, where Trump had his trial. So, people are probably familiar with it. He's got to get fingerprinted. They'll take a photo. We won't see that photo because they never released those here in New York. But then that whole process starts.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, speaking of the process, Elie, to you. If he says, yes, I am going to waive this extradition, I am ready to go to New York, how quickly could he be in front of a judge in New York?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Could be theoretically later today. Could definitely be tomorrow. I mean as Brynn pointed out, this is accelerating very quickly now that it seems he's going to waive, give up his rights to fight extradition.

What will happen today? First, he'll be formally arraigned on the Pennsylvania charges, which are the gun charges and the false ID charges. The judge will say, these are the charges against you. Do you understand them? Yes. He may plead not guilty. But those charges are going to be back burner while he comes here to face the much more serious New York charges.

And it's really interesting. Now it looks like, given the reporting that Brynn just referenced, he's going to be facing two separate sets of charges across the street from each other in New York. The one we already know about is the first and second degree state level charges, which he will be presented on in all likelihood first. That could be, again, that could be tonight. That could be tomorrow. And then if this reporting comes true, he will simultaneously be facing a variation of a federal murder charge in all likelihood. Same courthouse. It's 40 foot away. It's right across the street. But both of those murder prosecutions could be unfolding more or less parallel to one another.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: So, this is all happening as we speak. They're behind closed doors in that courthouse you're looking at right now. There is a courtroom. We think the hearing has begun, or at least it was scheduled to begin by now. The first of two.

There are many things we've been looking for today. Questions answered. One of which has already been answered, as we saw the video of Luigi Mangione entering the courthouse earlier. This time there was no outburst. It was a much more subdued defendant in this case walking into that court.

And the reason I bring that up is because one of the questions I've had is how this will now all change now that there is a high-profile lawyer, Karen Friedman Agnifilo, whom we all know, who has done some work here at CNN, representing Luigi Mangione. That was the footage of him walking in a few weeks ago before he had lawyered up.

Also interesting, Elie, it's the family, his family, who is - who brought in Agnifilo, right? And the family hasn't visited him yet. But what are you looking for in this dynamic?

HONIG: OK, so, first of all, I promise you, Karen Friedman Agnifilo got to him and said, shut your mouth. No more outbursts. No more of that stuff you did the other day. And there's a couple reasons for that. Number one, those outbursts can be used against him at trial. That video of him going in that you just showed, John, that can be played if it's relevant to prove his motive or something along those lines.

The other thing is, ultimately, if he gets convicted, if he takes a plea, if he gets convicted by a jury, the judge will be sentencing him. And there will be some wiggle room, maybe, depending on how the conviction comes down, for the judge to think about things like, is this person remorseful? Has this person accepted responsibility? That's way down the line. But generally you want your client, if you're a defense lawyer, to be on good behavior.

So, I assure you, we know Karen has visited and spoken with her client. I promise you, she's a good defense lawyer. She told him, keep it quiet for now.

GINGRAS: Yes, I can't imagine his family is there. It's a media circus there. I mean this is now in two states. So, there's media from both states present at this hearing. And then it's only going to get worse when it comes to New York.

So, will be - it will be, I think to your point, be interesting to see if any family does come to represent him, as we have found from Kara Scannell's reporting, that they did hire her, who, for a reason, she's a good lawyer, as we all know.

HONIG: Yes. Well, she's also a veteran of the state office.

[08:40:01]

We talked about the state and federal, right?

GINGRAS: Right.

HONIG: So, Karen worked at the Manhattan DA's office, which is the state level office, Alvin Bragg is the DA.

GINGRAS: Right.

HONIG: We're well familiar from various prior cases, where he faces first degree murder charges. Karen was the number two person in that office for many years before Alvin Bragg arrived there. And then across the street, the feds, that's where I used to work. I was not number two. But I - but I - that's the sort of dual sovereigns that we're looking at, to use the legal terminology.

GINGRAS: Yes.

BOLDUAN: We're just told from the voices in our head that the - that Mangione is in the courtroom. The doors are now closed. So, things are going to be getting underway.

One aspect - you guys can - Brynn and Elie, you can speak to this next from two different angles, which is, there is talk of - when you're talking about the state charges, some concern from experts that this first degree rare murder charge with leaning on a terrorism designation is an overreach, could be a real challenge to prove. And this speaks to all the evidence that was gathered. But also, what do you think of that assessment?

HONIG: Yes, so I think challenge is accurate. I do not agree that it's an overreach. I actually think it's a supported charge. Important for people to understand the way the New York state level charges are currently structured. And I see we have that full screen up.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

HONIG: So, let's think of it this way. An intentional murder in the state of New York is a second degree murder. If it was done intentionally and there's no excuse for it, second degree murder, 15 year minimum, penalty could be as long as life with parole.

On top of that, what they've now charged, the Manhattan prosecutors, is a first degree. In order to bump it up from second degree to first degree, you have to show some special factor. Could be, for example, that the victim was a judge, that the victim was a cop, that the victim was a witness, could be that the murder involved torture, just to give you a sense of what some of the statutory provisions are. The one they're pointing to here is the terrorism enhancement, which means it was intended to cause general public to be fearful, to feel coerced, or to influence policy, presumably relating to health care.

BOLDUAN: Yes. Exactly.

HONIG: But it's important to understand, prosecutors will have both of those charges. So, if and when there comes a day where there's a jury trial, the jury will be asked, first, how do you find on the higher first degree charge? Even if they reject that and say, we don't find first degree, they can still then find the second degree, intentional murder. So, you're building in a fallback position for yourself as prosecutors.

GINGRAS: I mean if - there are federal charges unsealed too. I - we were talking about this.

HONIG: Yes.

GINGRAS: I mean this could really raise the game a bit because it's possible then he could be eligible for the death penalty. So, right, Elie?

HONIG: Yes.

GINGRAS: I mean so this brings a whole different sort of side to it.

HONIG: So, New York state does not have the death penalty. There is a federal death penalty, but it's up to the Justice Department whether you want to seek it. And this actually - this is very timely because it depends on whose administration it is. During the first Trump administration, he and Bill Barr actively sought and imposed the death penalty I think 13 times they actually executed people. Biden, when he ran for office, said, I'm abolishing it. Now, he hasn't followed through on that. He's actually sought the death penalty in the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting case and the Buffalo supermarket shooting case.

BOLDUAN: Right. Right.

HONIG: Now, when Trump takes over in three weeks, four weeks, it will be his DOJ. They may well be more aggressive than the current Biden DOJ would be about asking for the death penalty, but that's a decision to be made.

SIDNER: I want to ask you about the federal case. I do want to mention that the judge has just taken the bench. So, this is - this is rolling now.

BERMAN: Game on.

SIDNER: The game is on. And the first thing they're looking at are those Pennsylvania charges. And then they'll move on to the extradition.

But about the federal - the potential federal case, you know, his attorney, Karen Agnifilo, is basically saying, look, this is just piling on, on top of already, she calls it overcharged first degree murder and state terror case. It's just highly unusual. And it raises some serious constitutional and statutory concerns about double jeopardy. When you look at that, I mean, can they do this at the same time? And is it piling on?

HONIG: So, yes, they can do this, but it's a fair point that it is what I think a normal person would consider piling on, without rendering judgment about whether it's a good or bad idea.

It is rare to see the feds and the state charge one person with the same crime at the same time. You can do this. There was a 2019 Supreme Court decision that took this exact question on, can you have federal prosecutors at the Justice Department and state prosecutors charging the same thing at the same time? The answer from the Supreme Court was yes. But important to know -

BOLDUAN: But you already said that the Pennsylvania charges now go on the back burner.

HONIG: Yes. Yes. BOLDUAN: So then does it go like that, then the federal charges then take precedent when that comes, and then the state charges, and then the Pennsylvania - you know what I mean?

HONIG: Well - yes, I do. So, the Pennsylvania charges are just the gun, not murder, just the gun and the ID.

BOLDUAN: Yes. Right.

HONING: They're so much less serious. They're definitely going to be back burner.

BOLDUAN: Right. OK.

HONIG: May ultimately even be dismissed.

BOLDUAN: OK.

HONIG: I mean, if he gets convicted of murder, who cares about a fake ID charge?

GINGRAS: Right.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

HONIG: Separately, though, they - there will be, it appears, two separate murder cases unfolding against Luigi Mangione, one state, one federal, more or less simultaneously parallel. Obviously, he can't be tried at the same time. But look for both of those cases to be proceeding through the processes more or less at the same time.

[08:45:02]

And I should say, it is a long-standing prosecutorial principle, certainly it's in writing at DOJ, that if a defendant is already charged with a certain set of conduct in a state court, we don't pile on federally unless - unless there's specific, important circumstances. One recent example, Derek Chauvin, who was charged with the murder of George Floyd, was charged state and federal, both.

BOLDUAN: Yes. OK.

BERMAN: There's a public messaging issue here, too, which is if this defendant is being lionized or treated as a hero by some people, you have state officials and federal officials who want to make clear that for public safety they maybe want to charge it a certain way to make it clear that he's not.

Listen, everyone stick around. This court hearing is underway. We've got cameras outside. We've got people inside. We're going to bring you every twist and turn as it all develops over the next 30 to 60 minutes.

So, stay with us as our coverage on that continues.

SIDNER: All right, and now to some other things happening across the country right now.

Workers are on the picket lines on strike against Amazon, just in time for the holidays.

And something we apparently do not need to worry about anymore. Oh, thank goodness. I mean I'm thinking about this all the time. Murder hornets.

BERMAN: I was saying just this morning, what about the murder hornets?

SIDNER: Shew.

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[08:50:37]

BERMAN: All right, this morning, House Speaker Mike Johnson getting a taste of what a speakership under President-elect Trump will look like. Also, maybe a speakership under Elon Musk. That is, if Speaker Johnson can keep his job because it's very much up in the air right now. Elon Musk led a Twitter rebellion that helped kill a deal that Speaker Johnson had made to keep the government operating and funding. "Politico" put it best, "Speaker Mike Johnson finds himself mired in a total S storm." Rhymes with spit, storm. facing down the threat of a government shutdown and demands from an incoming president that he cannot easily deliver on.

With us now is Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois. He is the chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, the Senate majority whip. The waning days of the Senate majority for Democrats.

Senator, thank you very much for being with us.

As you stand there this morning, what's the status of this deal, now non-deal?

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): I wish I knew. I could just tell you that for months we've been trying to craft a bipartisan compromise to avoid a government shutdown and to fund some critical areas of government spending. We had an agreement. Of course, you just described accurately what happened to it last night. I hope the agreement moves forward. It was a good way to make sure that we don't face a financial disaster in this country.

BERMAN: This was an agreement forged by the Republican House speaker, Mike Johnson. A deal he made with Democrats. Now that President-elect Trump and Elon Musk have pulled the rug out for - from under him, do you think Democrats should go back to the table and renegotiate?

DURBIN: Well, I think we have an agreement. There's no reason to renegotiate it. And it takes Democrats, it takes a bipartisan approach to solve this problem. That's the reality. It isn't, though. Speaker Johnson can just issue some sort of proclamation. He needs the votes to pass it on the floor of the House of Representatives, and we do in the Senate. We carefully crafted a bipartisan compromise. We ought to move forward with it. BERMAN: Are you saying that deal or no deal?

DURBIN: Well, at this point, there is no other deal. And this compromise - this bipartisan compromise, I think, was sensible. There are elements in here that are absolutely essential that go beyond a simple continuing resolution. Disaster assistance is one of them. And it's a bipartisan request from across the country, from Hawaii all the way through North Carolina and Florida, where devastating natural disasters have really cost the local economy in a terrible way.

So, we're moving forward to do the responsible thing, to rebuild the bridge in Baltimore, for example. And that has to be included in this agreement. It is, and should be.

BERMAN: We've heard from some Republicans this morning and some who support what Elon Musk and President-elect Trump are doing, saying there was - there was stuff in that deal we just can't accept. It was - it was a bad deal. That's not what the American people want.

DURBIN: A compromise will always include elements that you personally don't endorse. That's the nature of a compromise, give and take. And the reality of this situation is, we've reached that bipartisan compromise. We should have moved forward and passed it last night. And I hope we return to it today.

BERMAN: It included a pay raise for members of Congress, which is something that it's easy to pick on for a lot of people.

DURBIN: Well, of course it is. Of course it is. And - and one of your reporters stopped me in the hall and said, tell me about the congressional pay raise. I said, I don't know what you're talking about. I had no idea that that was going to be included. It's a cost of living adjustment. Members of Congress have not had a COLA in 15 years. Fifteen years. And this is a modest increase. I talked to my wife this morning and I said, don't count on ever receiving it. But it is included in the early draft of the compromise.

BERMAN: What do you think this episode, this last 12, 24 hours tells us about what this next Trump presidency will be and the power, maybe, that Elon Musk will wield.

DURBIN: Well, I'll tell you, it's a serious mistake if we give that kind of authority and power to someone who is not - not elected and is going to dictate. I wonder why Mr. Musk, who I've met several times, fails to remember that when Tesla was about to fail as a company, he turned in desperation to the Obama administration and had multi- hundred million - hundreds of millions of dollars given to him in a loan so that Tesla could succeed.

[08:55:16]

And it did. And I'm glad it did.

BERMAN: You are -

DURBIN: But the fact of the matter is, there was a moment in time when his private company needed help.

BERMAN: You are finishing up your chairmanship. This current version of your chairmanship of the Judiciary Committee. And you are proud of your accomplishments in terms of confirming judges under the Biden presidency.

DURBIN: Yes, I am. And I can tell you that the - if we approve the two judges on the calendar today, 235 federal judges will be filling vacancies because of action taken in the last four years. Over 85 percent of them were on a bipartisan roll call. These are quality individuals, women and men, who will make a difference.

BERMAN: Senator Dick Durbin, we appreciate your time this morning. I would say get home safely for the holidays, but you may have a lot to do between now and then. So, good luck over the next several hours.

DURBIN: Thanks a lot. Good to be with you.

BERMAN: Sara.

SIDNER: And just ahead, happening at this moment, more teamsters union members are on strike against Amazon and even more are expected to join later today. This morning, a worker near Chicago speaking out against the company.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASH'SHURA BROOKS, DRIVER, AMAZON WAREHOUSE: One thing that I would like to say is that there is a narrative being pushed out by Amazon that we are the monsters and we are the problem and we are not. How are we the problem when we have Amazon drivers in Fort Lauderdale that are delivering packages in a flood? How are we the problem when we have Amazon workers in California who are forced to work during a heat wave? We are not the problem because we're asking for what is owed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: Amazon is responding, calling the strike a PR play and illegal. And the company says this will not affect deliveries this holiday season. The teamsters union represents less than 1 percent of Amazon's U.S. workforce.

All right, the attorney for the woman who accused Sean Combs and Jay-z of rape is now suing Jay-z's entertainment company, Roc Nation. Tony Buzbee accuses Roc Nation of soliciting dozens of his clients to file, and I'm quoting here, "frivolous lawsuits" against Buzbee's law firm. A spokesperson for Roc Nation calls the lawsuits baloney. Jay-z has denied the rape allegation and is suing Buzbee for extortion.

And, multiple sources have told CNN that U.S. officials are investigating a Chinese telecom company to see if their routers posed a potential national security risk. Authorities are trying to see if hackers allegedly used the cheap and widely available routers from TP- Link to target U.S. infrastructure. Sources say the routers could be banned pending the results of the probe. And the world's largest hornet, aka the murder hornet - yes, it's a

real thing - has finally been wiped out here in the U.S. Federal officials announcing the invasive hornet has now been eradicated five years after they were first spotted in Washington state. Local residents played a huge part in helping get rid of them, agreeing to place traps on their properties. The hornets, which can be two inches long, killed dozens of people in China just a few years back.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: That's terrifying, and thank God we're all OK right now.

SIDNER: Oh.

BOLDUAN: All right, thank you so much, Sara.

Let's talk about this. We're going to show you some video. And what you're going to see is what is a suspected laser strike, video captured by a passenger as his plane flew over New Jersey on Friday. You're seeing some video of it there. An example of what the FAA is now warning about. Pilots reporting a dramatic uptick in laser strikes from the ground, all since concerns have been - were raised over those mysterious drone sightings.

CNN's Pete Muntean tracking all of this for us.

So, Pete, what are you hearing about these laser strikes and this somewhat connection to the drone mystery you've been - you've been covering?

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, essentially here, Kate, that drone panic has triggered this dangerous outcome. People misidentifying airplanes as drones, and then taking a high-powered laser pointer like this one - I bought this one for about $29 on Amazon, and pointing it at the plane. That can temporarily blind pilots, or worse. It's a huge problem all the time. An average of 30 times a night, according to the Federal Aviation Administration. But the FAA says there has been a huge surge this month.

On Tuesday night alone, pilots reported 123 laser strikes nationwide, 24 over the skies of New Jersey. Meaning, an average night for laser strikes nationwide localized entirely over one state.

Now, the FBI has been warning would be drone hunters against this, but this is the first time that we're getting new data. The FAA says, in all, there's been a 269 percent increase in pilot reports over the same period a year ago.

[09:00:03]

This is what it looks like. That's the blue laser there that was captured by a passenger on an American Airlines flight last Friday. The passenger