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Trump to be Sentenced for Hush Money Conviction. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired January 10, 2025 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: That infamous catch and kill story.

Joining us now again, CNN chief legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid, and senior legal analyst Elie Honig.

Elie, a lot of people wonder what Trump might say, but I have to tell you, I'm wondering what the judge is going to say about this very case. What do you expect to hear from him given all the contempt discussions and the treatment that Trump has bestowed upon Judge Merchan?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Laura, Judge Merchan has already told us that he intends to sentence Donald Trump to an unconditional discharge, meaning to nothing, essentially. But that's not because Judge Merchan thinks that this case is unworthy or unserious. In fact, to the contrary, if you look at what Judge Merchan says in that opinion, and has said throughout this case, he sees this as a very serious case and a very valid charge, aggravated by the fact that, you note, thinking back to Donald Trump repeatedly violated the gag order and made other public comments that clearly are under the judge's skin.

So, I think when that moment comes today, and it comes in every sentencing, when the judge pronounces sentence, I think he will say something like, I'm sentencing you to unconditional discharge, but that's largely because of your status as president-elect and the fact that you're going to become president not ten days from now. But I also think the judge will deliver a tongue lashing of sorts.

COATES: He also, of course, has to honor that a jury was convened, impaneled and made this decision. It wasn't him on the bench alone. He has to honor that process in our American court system.

Paula, speaking of our court system, the supreme judicial nine, right. This is all a category that Trump has said as lawfare. He has been very, very annoyed, to say the least, about all the cases. He's tried to conflate a number of them. Talk to me about why he is so angered about this entire category of cases, knowing that he has said the election made all of this, he believes, obsolete.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you can't underestimate how angry the president-elect is about not only the hush money case, but all of the criminal cases that he has faced, even though his lawyers believe that they've effectively won here, like, yes, this solidifies his conviction, but he's getting away with, you know, as they told me, a punishment that is less than what you get for speeding in New York.

If you look at the totality, I mean, Trump believes, and his lawyers believe as well, that he has been targeted by politically motivated prosecutions. I think we have to take these one by one. They can't all be lumped in.

When it comes to the New York case, you know, Elie and I have said this many times on air, there are some legitimate questions about why this case was resurrected after so many years. Is it because the district attorney was under political pressure? I mean, is this the case that you wanted to make history with, being the first time to prosecute a former president? Intelligent minds can disagree, but a jury found him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

But then when you extend that out to the federal cases brought by Jack Smith, I cannot tell you how angry Trump's legal team is with the special counsel's team and the attorney general for how they have treated his client, their client. They believe that Trump, as a former president, should have been given more deference by the attorney general, both in the classified documents case and the January 6th case. They have a lot of very close, unusually personal beef with members of the special counsel.

So, what we'll be looking for is once they're in power, remember, Todd Blanche is expected to be the number two official at the Justice Department, you know, how does this manifest once they are in power? But I can tell you, after almost a decade of covering Trump's legal issues, he's never happy about it, but this is next level.

COATES: Yes, speaking of Todd Blanche and the president-elect, they are both now apparently visible on screen. Remember, he has been permitted to appear via zoom, the quintessential phoning it in. What an era we're in where a president-elect can appear via Zoom, where a president-elect could be even sentenced for criminal charges in his native New York. He is wearing a dark suit, we're told. He has a red tie. We can tell you that the audio portion of this sentencing will be available to the public at the conclusion of the sentencing hearing. So, we'll hope to bring that to you as soon as we have it to get the actual audio. The idea, being able to hear the president-elect, if he speaks, let alone the judge, will be very important.

I want to bring in CNN's anchor, Kaitlan Collins.

Kaitlan, let's enfold you in this mix here because you know full well from your reporting over the years as well how much these cases have gotten under the skin of the president-elect. But we've had this major election. He has said that the people don't care about what has happened, that they did not - that they factored it in, and they were dismissive of it, compared to the mandate he believes he's gotten.

What are you hearing from the Trump camp about why this one continues to be that - that - that particular irritant?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, I mean, they have a point in terms of arguing that because, I mean, you're looking at this courtroom here. You know, I was in that courtroom a lot during the actual trial when this was - when this was going on. This sentencing was initially supposed to happen back in July. And Trump's tactics of delay, delay, delay worked. That's why we're not here until January where this is happening. And he's not even having to be present.

[09:35:02]

He's appearing virtually, as you noted, from - from his Mar-a-Lago club.

And the way the Trump team is viewing this in a political sense is, well, he was convicted, and this happened - and that happened months before voters went to the polls, and yet still they elected him and they put him into office.

But I can tell you, you know, that's how they're viewing it in a political sense of whether or not people are concerned about this or are watching this closely. But in terms of what the last few months have looked like from Donald Trump since he did -

COATES: And, Kaitlan, we're hearing right now, Kaitlan, that the judge is on the bench. We're hearing right now the judge is on the bench. He's getting ready to discuss the sentencing.

Go ahead.

COLLINS: Yes, well, the key thing to watch with that judge is, obviously, we expect to hear from prosecutors and from the defense, does Trump himself speak before the judge brings down his final sentencing here? That is something that we have not gotten an answer on and we've spoken to people. It's not even totally clear that - that they know if Trump is going to want to speak. But that is going to be something key to watch because, obviously, Judge Juan Merchan has been one of the biggest sources of irritants for - for Donald Trump.

And what I was saying is, since the election, he has been in an incredibly good mood, Laura. But it has been watching this and dealing with this and the Jack Smith report that is, we believe, imminent and expected to come out in a matter of days as the judge here is greeting Donald Trump, as he did every single day during his trial. It's just something to watch as Trump has been so fed up with this judge.

But when I was in that courtroom, you know, you watch, the judge kind of bend over backwards to actually be accommodating to Donald Trump. When you're there in the room in person, he was very respectful to him and certainly went out of his way. I mean he's letting him appear virtually for this hearing, which, as Elie knows, speaks to - to how he's handling all of this.

COATES: And, of course, you know, the idea -- good morning, Mr. Trump, and, of course, Attorney Blanche confirming that he and Trump are indeed appearing virtually from Florida. This signal that he already came down, Merchan, to allow him to appear virtually, signaling, of course, Kaitlan, that he does not necessarily intend to impose a jail sentence, which would be normal for maybe a class e felony in New York, or also even to have a probationary period or a fine, that largely likely greased the wheel for the Supreme Court to then say, we're not going to prevent what will ultimately be perhaps a tongue lashing, but a punitive slap on the wrist. We're going to be wanting to see if we're going to hear from either of them.

Of course, you know, Todd Blanche, as you know, is going to have a pretty important role in the Department of Justice in about 10 days' time or so. And, of course, they're telling him where they are. But, Blanche, having this role right now beside Trump, his success in that trial, even though it was a - it was actually a conviction, his successful performance, according to Trump, is what put him in a position to now be the number two at DOJ.

COLLINS: Well, basically, all of Trump's attorneys are going to work in the White House. I was thinking about this the other day, who is going to be representing Trump in a personal sense once he's in the White House because it's not just Todd Blanche. It's Emil Bove, who was the attorney, I believe, in the courtroom this morning. It's John Sauer. It's Will Schaaf. It's his - his White House counsel is also - David Warrington is his current campaign counsel. I mean, essentially, all of the attorneys who are working with Donald Trump and around him are going into the administration at this point from right now.

COATES: And, Kaitlan, I'm noticing here that Blanche, Todd Blanche, has confirmed that he received a copy of the probation report this morning. For the audience to understand, when somebody is sentenced between the actual verdict and the actual sentencing date, there is a compilation of information about the defendant, either through community reporting, people who want to vouch for him, to issue things on his behalf. Sometimes if there is a victim, they want to be able to provide a victim impact statement. How they have decided or viewed their own role in this. Any remorse that might be demonstrated, any individual things, if there was a mental health treatment plan or, of course, a drug treatment plan, all these things would be taken into account in a normal case.

Here we have a probation report that would have been provided, of course, not only to the judge to review in his decision ultimately to weigh factors and now rule. But now the attorneys also have a copy of it. You can only imagine what was in that probation report. The man was campaigning for the presidency in that time. He certainly, Kaitlan, was not silent about his views about how this case went. So, no expectation whatsoever of a demonstration of remorse in that probation report.

COLLINS: Yes, and I think as they're viewing this, you know, with this actually being the one of all of the legal challenges against Donald Trump that has gone forward here out of the Jack Smith cases that they spent months working on, whether it was classified documents or election interference, this is the one that has gotten the furthest, which is likely why it's the one that irks Trump the most, as you see, as he was approaching the sentencing. And they're not worried about what Judge Merchan is about to hand down, but it does make Trump the first convicted felon to be sworn in as president in just a few days from now here in Washington.

And you see Merchan, you know, asking these prosecutors who have been working on this case, who were in that courtroom every day, if they want to put anything to that report.

[09:40:04]

You know, it just is bringing to a close that - that saga. And it's just personally frustrating from what we've heard to Donald Trump as the fact that he is going to be the first convicted felon sworn in as president and is something that is, you know, out of all of the success he's had since the election and focusing on what round two is going to look like, this is the one thing that, when you talk to people, has made him angry.

COATES: And, of course, we're noting that the prosecutor, Joshua Steinglass, is asking for more time to read the probation report. They hadn't seen a copy of it. Todd Blanche had already seen it. They want to have more - but nothing - nothing to add to the record. We should note, of course, the prosecution seems to be in line with the idea of an unconditional discharge, a way of saying that it's going to be a slap on the wrist. And now the judge saying, let's impose sentence, please. Everyone stand by because what's going to happen, we're going to hear finally whether or not the judge will issue a sentence as he has stated he would, not having a jail in position or even a fine or probation.

You have the prosecutor, Josh Steinglass, up. Trump, we're told, is staring straight ahead as his attorneys are making the case. This is a very different vibe than we saw when we were in the courtroom at the trial where there was a weight very apparent in that room on the shoulders of then candidate Donald Trump and former president. But now the question will be, to what extent this judge is going to take into account the contempt allegations, the contempt confirmations that were happening during the course of the trial, to what extent he will discuss the jury system in America that said that there were these 12 jurors who were going to decide ultimately the fate based on the information that they received and the burden of proof that they felt the prosecutors weighed.

Trump and Blanche are appearing on the feed. It happens to be muted. So, we're not going to be able to have the real-time response. But there is an opportunity often for a defendant to have a say. The final word, of course, will go to the judge.

And remember, one of the reasons you want to have the so-called finality of a sentence, we've been using the term "convicted felon" for quite some time after the jury found him guilty of those 34 counts. But it's not a complete and total conviction to the point of finality of the trial court level until a sentence is handed down.

And then you know what happens? You can do a full appeal, a full appellate review of your case. Trump wants to do that. He does not believe that, one, this case should have been brought, that it should have been resurrected in the same way based on the allegations from before. The prosecution is recommending an unconditional discharge, meaning that there won't be that probationary period that most people will have when you have to sometimes submit urine analysis or meet with the probation officer, have requirements about jobs, requirements about community service. If you somehow violate the terms of your probation or any imposition of a restraining order, you might face jail time and other consequences. They're saying that they agree with an unconditional discharge.

This is no surprise, Elie, let's go to you on this point, because we knew that the judge was signaling that very point. But now the prosecution are in lock. What will that mean for the judge?

HONIG: Yes, so it is unusual, first of all, so people understand, to see a sentencing happening remotely. The rules, the laws usually require that a person be physically present in the courtroom, but the judge has made this accommodation. Now, again, the prosecution has agreed that the sentence should be an unconditional discharge. But I think what's about to follow now is the prosecution's going to make clear, we're agreeing to that unconditional discharge only because he's about to take office as the president. And I think what we're going to see, something we've heard from the prosecutors throughout and here, I see Steinglass, the DA, is saying the jury's verdict in this case was unanimous and decisive, and it must be respected. I think that's exactly the theme the prosecution's going to sound, which is, this was a valid case. This was a case that was tried fairly to a jury of 12 of - 12 civilians in Manhattan. They unanimously found Donald Trump guilty.

And the DA's office has backed this verdict. They've backed this prosecution strenuously throughout their filings. So, I think that's a theme we're going to see from the DA. And also I think we'll hear the judge echo that later on in this proceeding.

COATES: And, Paula, to that point, before, during jury selection, there was a real concern that Trump had of political bias, not just on the part of the judge, but by those people who might be potential jurors in this case. We now, of course, know, there's political conversations happening, legal challenges that will be raised about the ability to have brought this case according to the current statutes. But for the jury's perspective, they had the evidence in front of them. They believed a burden of proof was met. The judge wants to look at that, as do prosecutors.

And, of course, Steinglass is now listing off a bunch of things, by the way, that Trump has done post sentencing to undermine that very verdict.

[09:45:03]

Paula.

REID: Yes, this is a - this is definitely an opportunity for prosecutors to once again defend their case that has come under enormous scrutiny. They tried to reframe this. We refer to it as a hush money case. They tried to reframe it as an election interference case, arguing that the allegations here were part of an effort to deprive voters of information. They wanted to elevate this case after it came under really a lot of criticism. And now it's coming under scrutiny in the courts because the laws have changed since this conviction.

The Supreme Court has ruled that not only can presidents not be charged for official acts, you also can't use official acts to support or to prove other charges. And that is the piece of the Supreme Court opinion that Trump's lawyers are leaning into, to try to get this conviction overturned.

Now, Steinglass is saying that Trump has been far from expressing any kind of remorse for his criminal conduct. But this is important because we saw last night something that was really considered a long shot, having the Supreme Court weigh in at this early juncture to block this sentencing. Trump got four conservative justices to agree with him. He only needs one more to agree with him that their immunity ruling should mean this conviction is overturned to have this whole case upended.

Now, the prosecutor also telling the court Trump has been unrelenting in his unsubstantiated attacks on the court. This is, of course, something we've seen throughout this trial. But it was expected. The defense team expected that prosecutors would use this time to defend their case and likely attack the defendant.

COATES: And, Kaitlan, you know, you're seeing what the reaction of Trump is. He's visible on Zoom in this proceeding. He's leaning back, apparently shaking his head. There's even a moment that Steinglass, the prosecutor in this case, arguing in this moment is saying that he tried to encourage others to reject the jury verdict.

COLLINS: Yes, they're saying he has been nothing but - or nothing like remorseful since that sentencing came down. And pointing to what the judge himself has said, trying to use the judge's own words here about that being a hack on the rule of law itself. I mean the judge is fully aware of everything the prosecutors are saying right now because he has faced almost the most blistering criticism from Donald Trump, in addition to the district attorney, Alvin Bragg here, and these prosecutors that Trump has gone after repeatedly.

The judge knows all of this very well. And so that is something to watch, is how the judge articulates this and what he says here. But, I mean, he has been the one who issued his ruling, who has been, you know, responding to Trump's attorneys, saying, you are just trying to delay this. This was supposed to happen back in July. It's now happening now in January.

So, when part of their complaint in recent weeks was that he can't be sentenced right before he's about to take office, that he is busy, that he has other things to do. I mean, this was supposed to happen six months ago. And so that is something that the judge himself has noted in his rulings here as they've been moving forward. The prosecutor citing Chief Justice John Roberts. We'll see.

You know, Trump's - one thing that stood out to me last night was, Trump responded in real time to that Supreme Court decision to let this move forward today, as Paula noted there, a very close one. It very well could have not happened had Amy Coney Barrett decided a different way. Trump was not that angry with the Supreme Court. He said he understood their decision because they were saying, you know, he has an avenue of appeal here. And instead was saying, I'm just going to appeal this anyway.

So, one thing that is notable coming out of this, once the sentencing does come down, Trump can start that appeals process in earnest. And so that is something to watch here as he's moving forward.

COATES: Elie, the defendant, he - the Judge - Josh Steinglass is arguing, the defendant has caused enduring damage to the public perception of the criminal justice system. He's also citing Chief Justice Roberts. Presumably, I would assume, in part based on the official acts and discussion.

One argument that - that Trump had made in the past, through his counsel, was that the Supreme Court's decision on immunity would also have applied to the behavior that he was alleged to have had, and also the conduct of a president-elect.

Can you talk to me a little bit about the Supreme Court's being invoked in this instance, knowing the role that Chief Justice Roberts played just yesterday as a part of that majority opinion?

HONIG: Yes, I'd be interested to see the exact context of the citation to Chief Justice Roberts. Keep in mind, Chief Justice Roberts has made a lot of public statements about the need for respect for the process. And that's really the theme that the DA is sounding right now. It's interesting because the DA has opened his remarks, not by talking about the hush money payments, the falsification of business records, but by talking about Donald Trump's out of court conduct, his tweets, his comments outside the courthouse. And here we see the - the prosecutor continues to sound this theme about Donald Trump's open disrespect for the process. Steinglass acknowledges that any other conditional discharge has the potential to interfere with Trump's obligations.

So, what the prosecutor is saying here is, any sentence other than nothing, conditional discharge, could get in the way of him becoming president. So, so far, the focus of the DA has been on Trump's conduct beyond the hush money payment.

[09:50:04]

I suspect they'll get to that soon.

COATES: Wow.

And a huge note here, Steinglass is noting, we all remember this phrase being used, of course, and how prevalent it has been. Steinglass noting that the probation officer who interviewed Trump for the probation report wrote that Trump believed that he was, quote, "above the law."

Now, this, Paula, is monumental to think about because, again, people at home understanding the process of what goes on. Once you are convicted of a crime or have the jury verdict, there's a period of time in which you are interviewed by a probation officer who will get a sense for the judge and be the liaison to the judge to determine what the appropriate sentence would be. Are they remorseful? What do they have to say about the process? Are there community standards or community statements being made?

For this to be written, this is a really important statement that the judge will likely consider, even though he's already shown his hand about how he views the conditional and unconditional discharge here.

REID: Yes, and, look, this is not wrong. After a decade of covering Trump's legal issues, it is fair to say that in many instances, he believes he is not - he is either above the law or somehow protected by the law. And again, since the conviction in this case, the law has changed and given him at least some ground to stand on, to argue that there are parts of this case, evidence that was brought in, that the Supreme Court now says could potentially be official acts and may have to be tossed out.

Now, the prosecutor is - is saying that a sentence of unconditional discharge preserves Trump's status as a convicted felon, while he pursues his appeals.

But I will also note, in the federal cases that Trump is facing, he didn't say, look, no laws apply to me. He just said, I am in a different status because I am a former president when it comes to the classified documents case. He believes the attorney general should have allowed him to come in, speak to him one on one. He believes that he occupies, again, a different status than the average citizen and should be treated differently. The Justice Department, also the Manhattan DA, formerly the Georgia prosecutor, didn't see it that way.

COATES: Well, Kaitlan, Todd Blanche is now up. He's saying, I very much disagree with much of what the government just said about this case. The idea of governing and the ability to govern with this label overhead, convicted felon, is one that has gotten under the craw of the president-elect. Although there are arguments to be made that this case would not interfere with his ability to govern, given there would be no probation, presumably no jail time, or even a fine, which would be virtually minimal.

Trump looking while Blanche is speaking next to him, not reacting to what his attorney is saying.

But the idea of governing, why is this continuing to be part of the discussion that the Trump team will likely argue that they're unable to govern with that label of convicted felon?

COLLINS: Well, they're just arguing that essentially none of this should be happening. That they should not be here as part of the sentencing right now. This is what they argued against, not only delaying it. I mean they wanted to delay it, in effect, past January 20th, to where it wouldn't have to - to occur even. That was really what Trump wanted here was for this to not happen at all.

And so now that they're in the room, that was a legal argument that they have been making ever since he was elected and won the election in November, saying that he's too busy doing this, that he couldn't attend today's hearing. That's why he's appearing virtually via Zoom from Mar-a-Lago. He was just here in Washington yesterday for - for President Carter's funeral.

I think once they get past this and what Trump's attorneys have also tried to argue to him and kind of not just his attorneys view, but the view inside his orbit, is that, as Paula was noting earlier this morning, this is probably the best case scenario in this situation when they came here. You know, after sitting through every day of that trial and then how quickly that guilty verdict came down, they were arguing that from what happened last May, to where they are now, that this is one of the best outcomes that Donald Trump could have gotten here.

Now, does that mean he's not angry about having to sit here for a Zoom appearance in front of the judge that he has belittled and criticized at length? No. But - but they're looking at this and noting that they do intend to appeal this. It was a question of who was going to be appealing this once Donald Trump is in office, and all of his attorneys presumably are working inside the government. But they are continuing to argue against just the merits of this case overall.

COATES: And, Elie, there - Blanche is saying that the majority of the American people should agree - also agree, excuse me, that this case should not have been brought. And one of his arguments is that all of what the government is saying is presupposing the legality and legitimacy of having been able to bring this action. You yourself have been critical about evaluating whether this case, under the statutory premise, should actually have been brought. This is what, of course, the court had. He's saying it's a very sad day. And Trump is now speaking. We are waiting to see what he had to say. Remember, we will have the audio of this.

[09:55:02]

The judge ordered to have it be essentially silenced until after the conclusion of the sentencing. But his attorney teeing him up, saying that it's a very sad day for President Trump, for his family and continuing with his viewpoints about what this would mean and portend.

Elie, the idea of a now defendant, somebody who had had a guilty verdict issued, this is not novel. We often expect to hear from the defendant. But this moment is historic.

HONIG: Yes, so I'm eager to see what - oh, here we go. Donald Trump begins by saying, this has been a very terrible experience and a setback for the New York court system.

As you say, Laura, in any sentencing, the defendant has the option to address the court. Sometimes defendants choose not to do that, especially if they're intending to appeal. But clearly, Donald Trump is speaking now. He is going to be - it sounds like so far he's being characteristically aggressive. He says, this has been a terrible experience, a setback for the New York court system. And as you said, this is sort of the fundamental disagreement here.

The DA, and the judge will agree with the DA, who said this was a righteous case. No man is above the law. But Todd Blanche's argument that he made, that it sounds like Trump is, is echoing, and here Trump says, this is the case that Alvin Bragg did not want to bring, is that this case should never have been brought, that it was politically motivated.

What Trump's referring to there, this is a case that Alvin Bragg did not want to bring, that's not true. Alvin Bragg declined to bring a separate case, but Alvin Bragg chose to bring this case. And I see Trump now says of the DA, quote, "he thought it was from, what I read and from what I heard, inappropriately handled before he got there." Trump is sort of mish mashing several different stories in his head because there was a separate investigation of a separate crime that Alvin Bragg, when he took office in 2022, declined to charge. But that had to do with - with Donald Trump's finances.

This hush money case is a case - look, I disagree with the decision, but Alvin Bragg made the decision to bring this case. And, obviously, he and his office, the Manhattan DA's Office, stands behind it.

I see Trump said, quote, "he said I was falsifying business records." Falsification of business records, that is the underlying charge here. The hush money payments are at the core of this case. The falsification is the actual crime.

COATES: In large respects we're hearing a lot of what he's saying in the halls of the court after each proceeding or during the breaks. He was always very, very steadfast in his belief that these were attorney's expenses, that this was not a cooking of the books, that this was overblown. He's going after the indictment and the charges after he chose, of course, not to testify in the trial. And here he is describing again the legal fees were put down as legal expenses. He's always thought this was odd.

We're going to hear more from what the president-elect, soon to be president is saying, at his own sentencing in his hometown of Manhattan.

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