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Interview With Former U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales; Confirmation Hearings Continue on Capitol Hill; Israeli Cabinet Set to Vote on Gaza Deal. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired January 16, 2025 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:34]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: On the verge of a vote. The Israeli Cabinet now set to convene Friday to approve the cease-fire and hostage release agreement with Hamas. And we are following the latest.

Plus, some respite for first responders, as winds die down in Southern California, but now firefighters are racing to take advantage before the next round of dangerous gusts pick up.

And a Southwest Airlines pilot pulled from the cockpit minutes before takeoff, he's now in police custody and accused of driving under the influence. The reaction from the stunned passengers on board.

We're following these developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

Breaking news this hour, the cease-fire deal between Israel and Hamas appears to have cleared a significant hurdle that had many on edge earlier today, an Israeli official telling us that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Cabinet is now set to vote on the agreement tomorrow after today's vote was delayed after Israeli accused Hamas of backtracking on parts of the deal, though Netanyahu did not detail which parts.

Hamas had denied that. Earlier today, in his final news conference, Secretary of State Tony Blinken expressed confidence that the deal would move forward.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: It's not exactly surprising that, in a process, in a negotiation that has been this challenging and this fraught, you may get a loose end. We're tying up that loose end as we speak. I'm very confident that we -- this will -- this is moving forward and we will see the start of implementation of the agreement on Sunday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: With us now, CNN chief global affairs correspondent Matthew Chance and CNN political and global affairs analyst Barak Ravid.

Matthew, I do want to start with you. Tell us what you're learning.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, just that line that you just reported, Brianna, that, after some deliberation and some hesitation, it seems that the launch of this deal, which is a very complicated deal, is finally getting under way, with the agreement that there will be a Security Cabinet meeting tomorrow, on Friday, in Israel to vote for the terms of that deal after various obstacles have been overcome.

Those obstacles delayed the convening of that Cabinet by, it seems, 24 hours. There's been lots of objections raised by right-wing parties inside the Israeli government, the fragile coalition overseen by Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister.

They're concerned that ultimately the war against Hamas will be ended without Hamas being destroyed and with Hamas remaining as a de facto power inside the Gaza Strip. Now, we don't know what deal, if any, has been done to ease those concerns amongst right-wing parties, but that's definitely still out there and was one of the obstacles that had to be overcome.

The other issue on the Palestinian side, I mean, this wasn't spelled out, but there's been kind of word -- over the past couple of days, there have been kind of names discussed, negotiations about which Palestinian prisoners should actually be released as part of the large-scale Palestinian prisoner releases from Israeli jails that are sort of integral to this deal.

Some figures have got blood on their hands. They have been convicted of murder of Israelis. And so the release of those individuals is obviously very controversial, and Israel has been resisting some of that. And the Palestinian groups like Hamas have been insisting on them.

And so it seems, at this stage, that those hurdles have been overcome, but we will wait to see whether that Security Cabinet actually convenes in 24 hours from now, or slightly less than that, Brianna.

KEILAR: And, Barak, there's been some lurching, and you have reported very well on this, coming to a deal, then Netanyahu saying that Hamas is basically backtracking, but without specificity, and then appearing to figure things out.

Tell us about that process.

BARAK RAVID, CNN POLITICAL AND GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: I think that at least that's what I hear from people who are in Doha, both Americans and Qataris and Israelis.

[13:05:02]

It was last-minute attempts by each side to get something more, especially on Hamas' side, to try to change some of the names of the prisoners and get some of its military leaders, senior military leaders that are in the Israeli jails, to get them out in this phase of the deal, and the Israelis saying, you will not get them in this phase of the deal.

Israel has -- according to the agreement, has some veto power over some of the names that it can decide whether it wants to take them out of the list, a certain number of names. But I think this was all last- minute haggling.

At the end, this is not something that could have really exploded the deal or anything like that.

KEILAR: Barak, there is -- there has been considerable right-wing dissent here from some of Netanyahu's Cabinet members. What happens to his governing coalition? What happens to Netanyahu? Is his power in jeopardy?

RAVID: I think this deal is the biggest threat for Netanyahu's coalition since the October 7 attack.

Netanyahu managed to politically survive the aftermath of the -- the immediate aftermath of the October 7 attack, when a lot of people thought that, in a few weeks or in a few months, he will have to resign. He did not, and he survived politically until now. And now I think that's another big test for him.

He has a majority in the Cabinet. It's not in question. The question is whether his ultra-nationalist coalition partners, Minister Bezalel Smotrich and Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir, would say, we're not only voting against the deal -- it is clear that they're going to vote against -- but we are also leaving the coalition.

If that happens, Netanyahu loses his majority, and he will have to go to his political rivals in the opposition and say, you promised me a political safety net. Now is the time to deliver.

KEILAR: And, of course, Matthew, this is happening at a key transition point between the Biden administration and the incoming Trump administration.

CHANCE: Yes, and I don't think that timing should be overlooked. It's vastly significant.

Biden has been trying to get a deal like this through for many months, but has not been able to do so. The Trump factor, if you like, is what I think has really focused people's minds inside Israel, amongst the other parties as well, and got this deal, such as it is, across the line.

And part of the reason for that is that there is an anxiety on the part of many Israeli officials. They want to maintain Trump's support for the country, which has been very strong in the past and certainly during his first presidential term, because he's such an unpredictable figure, or he's seen as such an unpredictable figure, that there's concern that if he is not appeased or if he is in some way rebuffed, then that could have quite dramatic, significant consequences for his attitude towards Israel.

And, actually, we see that across the sort of spectrum of international affairs, with countries moving to appease Trump even before he's got into office, so they don't sort of incur his wrath or his anger, as it were, once he's in the hot seat in the Oval Office.

KEILAR: And, Barak, tell us how this is going to start playing out, because it will begin with hostage -- the hostage release on a limited scale this weekend.

RAVID: Yes, I think so, first, there would be the vote tomorrow. It's going to pass.

Then the Israeli government will publish the list of the names of the prisoners that are going to be released in order for people to be able to appeal to the Supreme Court. And then, on Sunday, around noon local time, the cease-fire will begin, and the first three hostages will be released.

The first three hostages that will be released are expected to be three women, civilians, not soldiers. And then it will take another week until four other women will come out of Gaza. And then, every seven days, another three or four hostages, until, on day 42, all the remaining hostages in the first tranche, which has 33 hostages in them, both those who are alive and both those who are deceased, will be released.

KEILAR: So long that they have been in captivity and that their families have been waiting for them and for answers.

Barak Ravid, thank you so much. Matthew Chance, thank you, both of you, for your reporting. Really appreciate it.

And with us now, we have CNN national security analyst and former Deputy Director of National Intelligence Beth Sanner.

[13:10:04]

Beth, does this look to you like this is going to proceed and play out as outlined in this deal?

BETH SANNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, the crystal ball continues to be broken.

But I think that the chances now are very, very good that we will get to Sunday and see at least the first exchange, the first release of these hostages, and, so, wonderful news there.

But as we saw in November, the month-and-a-half or whatever after the terrible October 7 events, it fell apart. And so we will just have to see, and it will be day by day. And there are lots of things, Brianna, that can make this go sideways.

KEILAR: Yes, and tell us a little bit about that. And we can't know all of them, but what are the things that you're looking for?

SANNER: Some of the things that I think are good that have been put off that make it more likely that it will hold is that the negotiation for the second phase, which would be for the end of the hostilities, the complete war, won't start until day 16.

But that is not very far into the exchange, as Barak explained. We have 42 days. And so, once those negotiations begin, that is the biggest sticking point we're going to see, because you have on the one hand, the only reason Hamas agreed to this deal is because they want a complete end to the war, whereas Netanyahu and his party and his allies do not until they have their war aims completed.

And, last week, 15 IDF soldiers died in Gaza. This war isn't over by that kind of expansive view that Netanyahu and his allies have. And so we could see it break down around that point.

KEILAR: Once hostages, though, are being released, yes, a few at a time each week, but, by that point, you would have seen, I think we would expect, a few releases.

How much pressure will Netanyahu and those around him be under to continue in earnest with negotiations?

SANNER: Right.

So this is where President Trump is so instrumental in whether this agreement will survive and be seen through, because President Trump and his team want an end to the hostilities. They want phase two. And this is where he and many of Netanyahu and his supporters may very well disagree.

It's also why Hamas agreed to this deal. They didn't agree to this deal, in my view, because of the threat of whatever he said, bombing Gaza. They agreed because they believe that Trump is the one -- that's what the U.S. guarantee on this agreement is all about -- will deliver the Israelis to phase two.

And so there's so much in this for President Trump and what he wants to achieve in the region, really broad goals of stability and an agreement between Saudi Arabia and Israel, the Abraham Accords. All of that rests on getting to phase two.

KEILAR: It feels like we're going minute by minute here, though.

Beth Sanner, thank you so much as we await here momentous days ahead. Thank you.

Ahead on CNN NEWS CENTRAL: President-elect Trump's picks for key Cabinet positions are making their case on Capitol Hill, and we're following those pivotal hearings.

And firefighters are making gains, but the battle against wildfires in California is far from over. We're on the scene there.

Plus: Nobody likes flight delays. Now the Department of Transportation is actually suing Southwest over them.

Stay with CNN NEWS CENTRAL. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [13:18:30]

KEILAR: It is day three of Senate confirmation hearings.

And, right now, four of president-elect Trump's nominees are in that hot seat. You have got former Congressman Lee Zeldin, who has been picked to lead the Environmental Protection Agency, although he has a lengthy record of voting against legislation to protect the environment.

And in a key moment this morning, Zeldin broke from the president- elect and said, unlike Trump, he does not believe that climate change is a hoax. There's also Trump's pick to lead the Department of the Treasury, billionaire hedge fund manager Scott Bessent. So far, Bessent has defended Trump's economic policies, including proposed tariffs, and said that he disagreed with analysts who say they will be paid for by workers and small businesses.

And then there is secretary of the interior nominee Doug Burgum. He praised Trump's energy dominance agenda, claiming that boosting energy production at home will help end wars abroad.

CNN chief congressional correspondent Manu Raju is with us more. He's been watching all of this carefully.

Tell us what you're hearing and how this is being received on the Hill, Manu.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, right now, Republicans are confident that all those nominees that you just mentioned, Brianna, will be confirmed by the United States Senate. And even some of the more controversial nominees as well could be confirmed, some as soon as next week, one of those, of course, Pete Hegseth.

He had his confirmation hearing earlier this week to lead the Defense Department. He's one who's been criticized by Democrats particularly over allegations of personal misconduct, something that Hegseth has denied.

[13:20:02]

But in order to get confirmed by the U.S. Senate, which is 53-47, led by the GOP, they need to ensure that they can keep all but three Republicans -- all but four Republicans on board, meaning they can lose three. If they lose four, that would be enough to scuttle the nomination.

There is no sense that any of these would face that significant of opposition from Republicans. And in a key sign for Hegseth, I caught up with one Republican senator who is seen by the leadership as a swing vote of sorts, freshman John Curtis, about his views on Hegseth, and he indicated he is on board.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: These issues of personal misconduct for Hegseth, it seemed like that did not -- was not an overriding concern for you. Is that fair?

SEN. JOHN CURTIS (R-UT): I had to balance, right between giving the president deference, giving my own standards, right, and what happened and what didn't happen.

And you -- I think it's fair to say, because of the length of the time of my decision, that I took all of these things into consideration. As you know, there was a lack of people willing to step forward to actually validate those.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Now, Hegseth could be confirmed by the Senate as soon as next week, because the Senate Armed Services Committee could act on the nomination as soon as Monday, the day that Donald Trump is sworn into office, and the full Senate could act later in the week.

The question is, who else could be confirmed as soon as next week, when Trump takes office? And watch for Marco Rubio, the Florida senator who has been chosen as secretary of state. He's someone, unlike Hegseth, who has wide bipartisan support. There could be more than 90 Republican and Democratic senators voting for him, according to many Democrats and Republicans here in the chamber.

So that is one that could move rather quickly. The other more controversial nominees that are waiting in the wings, including Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to lead the Health and Human Services Department, Tulsi Gabbard to be the next director of national intelligence, and Kash Patel to lead the FBI, none of those hearings have been set yet.

But even though they have some controversy, Brianna, there is still hope and expectation by top Republicans here that ultimately the GOP will fall in line and push these nominees through, even if some have concerns by some of the backgrounds of those nominations -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Yes. The convincing campaigns do a lot with some of these ads being run against them if they don't get in line. It's very real pressure they're facing.

Manu Raju, thank you so much for that report from the Hill.

Right now, some of Pam Bondi's closest allies and former colleagues are on Capitol Hill. They're making the case for why she should be confirmed as Trump's attorney general, as Democrats are raising concerns about some of her testimony yesterday, including refusing to say outright that Trump lost the 2020 election, claiming that there was a peaceful transition of power, despite the January 6 attack on the Capitol, which delayed certification of the results of the election.

With us now is former Attorney General under President George W. Bush Alberto Gonzales. He's also the dean of the Belmont University College of Law.

Thank you so much for being with us.

I just wonder what you thought of her testimony yesterday as you were watching.

ALBERTO GONZALES, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, having been in that chair, I know that the prep that goes into it.

Typically, you don't get a single question that is asked that hasn't been discussed in prep. Oftentimes, Republican senators in this particular case will share questions in advance. Even some Democratic senators will share a question in advance, so that the nominee cannot say, well, I need to go back and look at this issue.

So she was very well-prepared. All indications to me are that she will be confirmed, there will be sufficient support to confirm her as attorney general. She's very well-qualified, by virtue of her experience as attorney general. There were some things that were disappointing.

I particularly -- I think it's the role of the attorney general to protect the Department of Justice, to defend the Department of Justice. And to say that the department has been weaponized and politicized -- I mean, there are over 100,000 people that work in the Department of Justice. Less than 1 percent are political appointees.

To take that department and weaponize or politicize it, there would be a revolt by the career individuals, because all they care about is ensuring that justice is pursued and that justice is done. So that's disappointing.

And I'm hopeful that, when she is confirmed and is the attorney general, she will do a better job of defending the Department of Justice and the men and women who work there.

KEILAR: So, when you endorsed Harris, Kamala Harris, in the fall, you said you viewed Trump's reelection as a threat to the rule of law.

How do you see Pam Bondi when it comes to being a steward of the rule of law and an independent Justice Department?

GONZALES: Well, that is -- remains to be seen. And I think that is the concern that certainly many Democrats on the Judiciary Committee have as to whether or not, will she be like Jeff Sessions and Bill Barr and say no when asked to do something that they believe is either illegal or simply not good for the Department of Justice?

[13:25:12]

It doesn't have to be -- it doesn't have to be illegal to say no. Sometimes, a request is made that, quite frankly, is against the traditions of the Department of Justice. And you don't want to do it. You don't believe it should be done.

And if she can do that, I think that the department is going to be in good shape. And, again, it's about defending the rule of law, defending the men and women who work at the Department of Justice.

And I'm not saying that people are perfect. In a department with over 100,000 people scattered all over the world, at any one time, somewhere, someone is doing something they shouldn't be doing. But as a general matter, again, this was the most disappointing thing that I heard from Pam Bondi yesterday.

KEILAR: Notably, she vowed to follow DOJ policy to limit contacts between the White House and the DOJ.

When you look at the Justice manual -- and this is Merrick Garland's latest version, though there have been many and they're similar -- says -- quote -- "The Justice Department will not advise the White House concerning pending or contemplated criminal or civil law enforcement investigations or cases, unless doing so is important for the performance of the president's duties and appropriate from a law enforcement perspective."

How much work can that word "unless" do there, in your view? Does that provide a big loophole?

GONZALES: It does provide some discretion. There's no question about it, and it will depend upon the circumstances.

So, it's going to be a case-by-case. But I applaud the decision to continue the longstanding practice of limiting contacts. When I was White House counsel, it was all -- I was the only person allowed to contact the deputy attorney general or the attorney general with respect to any pending criminal investigation going on.

And even then, those conversations were very, very limited. And so it's very important for the White House not to be seen as putting the thumb on the scales of justice. And I think that's a very important agreement made by the incoming administration.

KEILAR: When you were A.G., you accepted responsibility for mistakes that were related to the firing of U.S. attorneys that involved White House officials and political appointees drawing up a list of U.S. attorneys that classified, in part, their loyalty to the president.

You have seen when this goes wrong up close. And I wonder, with that perspective, what kinds of things you worry could happen about, very real things, if this DOJ doesn't stick to that policy?

GONZALES: Well, it's -- it will call it to question the reputation of the Department of Justice. The American people have to have confidence in the Department of Justice.

That confidence is shaken both by the performance, by the actual performance by the Department of Justice, and by what things are said about the Department of Justice, whether true or not. And there's been a lot of rhetoric out there about the department being, as I said earlier, weaponized and politicized, in many cases for simply doing their job in pursuing criminal wrongdoing.

Again, you bring these cases, you get an indictment, you're successful, a jury decides, in fact, that you have made your case, in that particular instance, there has not been a political indictment. There has not been a political conviction. These are simply people doing their jobs. This is what we should want

from people at the Department of Justice, which is to simply do their job. And I'm hopeful that, given the qualifications, the experience of Pam Bondi, that that's what the Department of Justice is going to do going forward.

KEILAR: Yes, as you said, we will see. Time will tell.

GONZALES: That's true.

KEILAR: Former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, always great to have you. Thank you so much for being with us.

GONZALES: You bet. Thank you.

KEILAR: And up next: The mayor of Los Angeles warns -- quote -- "We are not out of the woods yet."

The winds that have fueled the fires are dying down, but there could be some more trouble on the horizon. We will talk about that.

And Southwest Airlines is now trying to explain why one of its pilots was arrested just before takeoff and accused of driving under the influence.

We will have that story ahead.

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