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Judge Blocks Trump's Order on Birthright Citizenship; GOP Senator Murkowski: Won't Support Hegseth as Defense Secretary; Trump Addresses World Leaders at Davos Economic Forum. Aired 2-2:30p ET
Aired January 23, 2025 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[14:01:09]
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Thanks so much for sharing part of your afternoon with us. I'm Boris Sanchez alongside Erica Hill in for Brianna Keilar this afternoon. Erica, great to have you.
ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: Nice to be back with you.
SANCHEZ: Yeah, a lot is going on.
HILL: It's sort of a busy day here.
SANCHEZ: It is a busy day. We begin with two setbacks for new President Donald Trump, both happening in just the last hour. First, a judge saying he's going to block Trump's executive order that is aimed to end birthright citizenship, calling the order, quote, blatantly unconstitutional.
HILL: And then on Capitol Hill, just moments later, ahead of a key vote on his controversial pick to lead the Pentagon, Pete Hegseth. Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski saying she can't back Hegseth's nomination as Secretary of Defense. That means his nomination could now be in trouble, of course, because Republicans hold a very narrow majority in the Senate.
CNN Chief National Affairs Correspondent Jeff Zeleny is live at the White House. So in terms of this nomination, it was seen as difficult, have we heard any reaction at this point from the White House to this announcement by Senator Murkowski?
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Erica, there's no question that there have always been concerns if all Republican senators would vote for Pete Hegseth. But the word from Senator Murkowski that she is not going to is likely not that surprising to most people here at the White House. We've not seen an official comment from them since she has come out saying she would not support him.
But if they, we know that the math is still on their side. Even if narrowly, it would take four Republican senators to decide to vote against him. For J.D. Vance, the Vice President, to break the tie, he would still be confirmed. I think the bigger question here is, is she going to be alone, or is Senator Susan Collins going to join in with her and vote against, as often happens. But we know that some of the biggest questions about the nomination of Pete Hegseth have already been answered after his confirmation hearing, when Iowa Senator Joni Ernst, of course, a combat veteran herself, who had questions about the conduct of Pete Hegseth, she said she was voting yes.
Now, if she would change her mind, which there's no indication of that at all, despite some of this new information. And if other Republicans would come out, say Senator Mitch McConnell, for example, he has not specifically said how he'll vote on all of these nominees. That would be more of an issue for concern. But as of now, at least, the math they believe is still on their side.
As for the birthright citizenship, this is something that's also pretty, pretty familiar. The president signs executive orders. They know that some of these will be challenged in court. And that is also the point of all of this. This is not a surprise that the birthright death citizenship question is indeed a constitutional one, which will be settled not by the President or the Congress or the courts, likely the Supreme Court.
So it feels like now the other levers of government are getting back in play here, if you will. This is not going to be simply just executive actions all the way through the President's second term. Congress will have to weigh in. The courts will weigh in. So even though it's, you know, these headlines are coming out hour by hour, this is how this process works. But clearly, it's not always going to be a rosy day. A perfect hit for this White House.
SANCHEZ: Yeah. And to be fair, some of Trump's backers knew that this would be a legal fight. They went into it --
ZELENY: Sure.
SANCHEZ: -- knowing that this would end up --
ZELENY: They wanted this. Exactly.
SANCHEZ: in front of the Supreme Court. Exactly. Yeah. Jeff, something else that Trump wanted was to capture an international audience this morning when he spoke at Davos and to send a very clear signal as he spoke virtually to business and political leaders at the World Economic Forum in Switzerland, essentially saying that the United States is open for business.
ZELENY: Open for business. And this is an audience the President was very eager to address. He obviously couldn't be there in person, as he's done a couple times before, in 2018 and 2020, I believe. But he wanted to appear virtually to send the message that America is open for business. But he also sent a message for businesses and countries that aren't willing to do business here in the U.S. This is what he said about taxes and tariffs.
[14:05:00] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, 46TH AND 47TH U.S. PRESIDENT: My message to every business in the world is very simple. Come make your product in America, and we will give you among the lowest taxes of any nation on earth. We're bringing them down very substantially, even from the original Trump tax cuts.
But if you don't make your product in America, which is your prerogative, then very simply, you will have to pay a tariff, differing amounts, but a tariff which will direct hundreds of billions of dollars and even trillions of dollars into our treasury to strengthen our economy and pay down debt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZELENY: So look, a bit of a not so veiled threat there to businesses and, you know, that do not do business here in the U.S. One thing the President cannot control alone to our earlier conversation is the exact tax rate. That is going to have to be something that is legislatively decided.
But the extending of the Trump tax cuts is going to be a key question. How do they get this legislative agenda through? But overall, that message, world leaders there in Davos is one of strength and it's one of confidence. And the President was eager to address the forum and take friendly questions, but again, sending the signal that America is back. And most importantly, he's back. And that, of course, rattles some markets and some world leaders as well. Erica and Boris?
HILL: Jeff Zeleny, appreciate it. Thank you.
To dig in a little deeper here now, we're joined by CNN Global Affairs Analyst Kim Dozier. Kim, as we look at this, you know, as Jeff is pointing out, Donald Trump really wanted to assert in that speech, hey, I'm back. This is what I want. This is what I expect you to do. Wants to be that strong man, wants to put them on notice. I thought the reception was equally interesting, Kim.
KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Yeah, the reception was. Even when he criticized one of the bankers on stage, that man said nothing, just said, hey, by the way, a friend here says hi. From the last Trump administration, people have learned you do not challenge him in public because he will retaliate. And the whole tone of this speech was, I'm back, bigger and better than before, and if you don't work with me, I will sanction you, tax you, tariff you, and other unspecified threats.
And I think that audience, I mean, yes, the audience is full of business people. They want lower barriers to doing trade around the world. But a lot of them, they're not prepared to just pick up and move manufacturing to the United States. So they are bracing for whatever comes out of the White House next in terms of actual tariffs.
SANCHEZ: Kim, I was also struck by his comments about Saudi Arabia and OPEC asking them to cut the cost of oil, saying that it would help expedite an end of the war in Ukraine. As I put it to Richard Quest about an hour ago, it's really not that simple. Is there incentive that he could offer in order to achieve that?
DOZIER: Well, Trump has come into this knowing that Zelenskyy and Ukraine are willing to negotiate. Zelenskyy, the President of Ukraine, has told him that in person. But that Putin is the problem here. And past advisors told me they were going to present Trump a plan to give him leverage over Putin to force Putin to the negotiating table.
And key among that leverage was lowering oil prices so that Russia would be suffering even more. Its economy is suffering right now from high inflation and other banking difficulties. But it's mostly done okay if the oil drops -- if the bottom drops out of the oil market.
Moscow is going to feel pain. The elite that are keeping Putin in power are going to feel pain. And Trump is showing that he is perfectly willing to wield that threat and also to bully the crown prince of Saudi Arabia to help him achieve the goal of lower oil prices.
HILL: Lot to watch for. It's day four? Day four. Kim Dozier, always good to see you. Thank you.
We're also following some new developments surrounding President Trump pardoning January 6th defendants. Capitol Police officers who were assaulted that day and testified against their attackers, we've learned, are getting voicemails from the Justice Department. This is standard, of course, to let someone know that people they helped convict were being released from prison. Well, CNN obtained a voicemail left for former U.S. Capitol Police staff Sergeant Aquilino Gonell. Take a listen.
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WOMAN #1: Please be advised that the offender is scheduled to be released on January 21, 2025.
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HILL: Joining me now to discuss former Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger, who, of course, served on the January 6th committee. Good to have you with us. I know there is a fair amount of concern for these officers who testified against the January 6th rioters.
[14:10:05]
There's concern about perhaps your safety as well. Where do you stand in terms of your level of concern for folks like Aquilino Gonell?
FORMER REP. ADAM KINZINGER, (R) SERVED ON JANUARY 6 COMMITTEE: I mean, look, it's concerning. I think what's more concerning than anything is these people are being pardoned. The vast majority of them have expressed no remorse. And as you're seeing, even with the interview of some of them that comes out, I think Enrique Tarrio was basically saying, no, we're going to go after, we're going to have vengeance. And you typically, you know, when I think, what is Speaker Johnson yesterday said, we believe in forgiveness. And it's like, well, yeah, but to have forgiveness, you have to have this understanding that they did wrong. So, yeah, there's some concern out there.
I mean, I'm not concerned -- you know, look, I have this is what I do for a living, to continue to call out the truth. We've done this for a long time and we're going to continue to do it. But the problem is no matter what is said from the White House or anywhere else, there are people that can take anything. When you say retribution or revenge, and they can -- whatever that means in their mind is what they're going to do.
Even if some people are thinking out it just means revenge in terms of we'll have hearings for January 6th or whatever. And so that's where real concern comes in that way. And I hope the media, all of the media I know CNN will covers every one of these folks that were pardoned that commit a crime like they used to do every time an immigrant was released and committed a crime. And that will let the American people know exactly who's back on the streets.
HILL: It would be interesting to see what unfolds there. But to your point, to your point about, I think you were just bringing up Speaker Johnson's putting together a committee to investigate the January 6th investigators.
I spoke just a short time ago with Republican Congressman Don Bacon. He said he does want some answers on things. He said he doesn't want to look back, but he still wants some answers on things like who ordered the National Guard not to show up that day. That answer, though, is something that we have.
KINZINGER: Yeah, it is. And here's the crazy thing. So, you know, Trump has said this and, you know, Don, I really respect and like, I hope he takes a second look at this. He keeps saying that Nancy Pelosi said no to the Guard, or for a while it was the D.C. Mayor. Who's in charge of the D.C. National Guard? It's the President of the United States. And under him, the Secretary of the Army. There is no control of the National Guard from Nancy Pelosi or the Mayor of D.C. It is the only National Guard that falls directly under the President.
So, look, these people have the answers. They know the answers. The problem is they're scared to go back to their base and tell them what they know. And so instead, the same people that have been saying it's time to move on from January 6th, they were saying that the whole time we were investigating January 6th, are now saying, let's go back to January 6th.
Look, I other members of the committee, we were ready to move on after the election because we put the facts out there and America still made a choice. But if they want to revisit the 187 minutes Trump sat and did nothing, you know, the fact that the day, that night he called them criminals, you know, after everything was settled down and now he let them go, fine, we'll revisit all of that. But it seems like a super waste of time for a majority that claims they have a lot to do. HILL: I do also want to get your take on. So we just learned a short time ago that Senator Lisa Murkowski has said she is a no when it comes to Pete Hegseth for Secretary of Defense, noting his past behaviors, which he's admitted to show a lack of judgment in her words, that's unbecoming of someone who would lead our armed forces. I know you have some thoughts on Pete Hegseth. But I wonder what you think this means, too, in terms of this is one Republican senator. Do you think there could be more? Susan Collins, for example?
KINZINGER: More? And my thought is that there may be a couple of people we're not talking about or expecting. Do I think his nomination goes down? If I was a betting man, I'd probably bet against the nomination going down. But I do think there may be one or two others that pop up here. They may have been talking. So they get like three people to vote no, but he still passes. I don't know what that level of coordination is.
I'll say this for Lisa Murkowski, anybody that says no on this or any other nomination, it takes real courage in today's political environment. It used to be that senators understood what their job was to make an independent decision.
Now, to go against Donald Trump takes a lot of courage, I guess. It's kind of doing your job, but we'll call it courageous. And she gets a lot of credit for that. And I hope there are others that join her, not just on this one, but other nominations that are, you know, completely ill qualified for the positions they've been nominated for.
HILL: Former Congressman Adam Kinzinger, always good to talk to you. Thank you.
KINZINGER: Yep. See you.
HILL: We are staying on top of this critical Hegseth vote. It is just minutes away. We're live on Capitol Hill. We'll take you there next.
Plus, we are also closely following the new fires and new evacuations in Southern California. Firefighters there continuing to face dangerous conditions that are only growing with these explosive fires. That's all ahead right here on CNN News Central.
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[14:19:37]
HILL: This afternoon, President Trump's choice for Defense Secretary faces a key vote in the Senate. And his path to confirmation just got a little more difficult with the news that Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski will not support him. CNN's Manu Raju joins us now live. So Manu, where do things stand at this point in terms of headsets nomination?
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONLA CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. There are several Republican senators who have simply not said how they would vote and we expect from Democrats to vote against him along party lines. [14:20:04]
Meaning that Hegseth cannot afford to lose more than three Republican votes in this for this critical position to be the next Secretary of Defense.
Lisa Murkowski becoming the first Republican senator to announce her opposition, indicating that she did not believe he was fit for the job, questioned his character, questioned some of the past comments he made, including about opposing women in the military. Those are comments that he made as a Fox News host. He's, of course, a military veteran as well, but also contending that he simply did not have -- wasn't fit for such an important job.
Now, that is not the opinion of most Republican senators who are falling in line. But there are a handful who have not made a decision yet, including Senator Susan Collins of Maine, who I just asked moments ago about where she is. She said she'll be releasing a statement shortly about when -- about how she will vote. And she indicated to reporters earlier today that she has the information she needs to cast this critical vote.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. SUSAN COLLINS, (R) MAINE: I think it would have been helpful if the FBI report had been more detailed and if it had been shared with at least every member of the Armed Services Committee. I do believe I have sufficient information.
SEN.THOM TILLIS (R) NORTH CAROLINA: So now I have to go through, and am going through this last allegation, but unless I can point to specific firsthand corroborated testimony, I'm not going to cave to pressure. I'm going to vote for his confirmation.
RAJU: (Inaudible) this FBI, this affidavit -- oh, don't -- what did you say, Senator?
SEN. JONI ERNST, (R) IOWA: (Inaudible) his ex-wife has denied it, so I don't think (inaudible).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: So that last comment was in reference to an affidavit that was submitted by an ex-sister-in-law of Pete Hegseth who alleged that he was engaged in alcohol abuse and mistreated his second ex-wife. His second ex-wife contended that there was no physical abuse in their relationship.
And of course, Hegseth himself has denied repeatedly those allegations of sexual misconduct, allegations of excessive drinking, and has told senators he would not drink if confirmed to this critical position. But in just a matter of minutes, we'll see if he has the votes to pass this first hurdle. And if he does, he could be confirmed as late as tomorrow.
HILL: Manu, thank you. Boris. SANCHEZ: Discuss with Democratic Senator and Army Combat Veteran Tammy Duckworth of Illinois. She's a member of the Armed Services Committee. She also repeatedly pushed Hegseth on his qualification to lead the nation's Defense Department. Senator, thank you so much for being with us. This procedural vote is set to be underway in just moments. What do you anticipate is going to happen?
TAMMY DUCKWORTH, (D) ILLINOIS: Well, nobody knows. At this point, we're waiting to see where Senator Collins is. If he loses three Republicans, then JD Vance would have to come and vote to pass to move into the next stage. I hope that at least three more Republicans step up and find their moral center and realize that this man is not fit to lead the bravest men and women in this country, the ones who wear the uniform of our great nation.
SANCHEZ: Have you spoken to Collins or perhaps other senators that have expressed apprehension or at least have not come out in support of Hegseth?
DUCKWORTH: Well, it's very hard to talk to the Republicans right now. They are pretty much avoiding us when we have tried to bring this up. They close ranks. Remember that the ones who express any doubt immediately were descended upon by, with threats, with negative comments.
Even Joni Ernst when she first, you know, when all of these allegations about because that first came out and she expressed doubt about his qualifications and the fact his lack of qualifications immediately from President Trump on down, she was threatened with her political career. She was threatened personally. The MAGA crowds.
So you can see why Republicans would be running scared. But I hope that at least three more of them, in addition to Lisa Murkowski, decide to put country in front of their political survival.
SANCHEZ: Senator, we heard a short time ago from Thom Tillis, a Republican senator. He said that he hadn't seen any firsthand corroborated testimony backing up some of the allegations against Hegseth. I wonder what you make of that, whether you think, as Senator Collins expressed, that the FBI report was not more detailed.
DUCKWORTH: Yes, he was very careful in how he made that statement. The FBI report, you should know, is requested by the Trump transition team. They tell the FBI who to talk to and more importantly, who not to talk to. And they also have hidden the FBI report from the members of the committee.
So I have not been able to see the FBI report even as it is defective and doesn't -- is not comprehensive enough.
[14:25:06]
Neither has Thom Tillis. But this is the decision of the Republicans. The Chairman could allow us to see it. And he said no. He wouldn't even give us a second round of questions. And Mr. Hegseth was kept away from all the Democratic Committee members, and we were not even allowed to meet with him in person prior to the hearing. And in fact, I'm still waiting to meet with Mr. Hegseth. I've been requesting a meeting with him since December 18th.
And so for Thom Tillis to say what he says is factually correct. But there's a lot behind the scenes, and that is the information isn't there because the Trump transition team is blocking that information, because the Chairman of the Committee is not allowing us to see it, and because the FBI report is designed to be lacking.
And so we're now at this place where we're going to have to vote on the person who's going to run the greatest military on the face of the earth, a person with access to the nuclear codes, and we don't have information about this man's character.
SANCHEZ: The Trump team is essentially arguing that committee members should not be allowed access to the report because of a precedent set by the Biden administration. What do you think about that? Shouldn't they follow the same precedent?
DUCKWORTH: Well, the precedent is that you can actually have access to report and there has been access to reports that have been given in cases like this where there were sexual assault allegations. And in fact, we were able to see reports like this on previous folks who were up for other positions to be confirmed, who had sexual assault allegations. And in fact, Joni Ernst was very active in those investigations.
And so and the not allowing us to have a second round of question, not allowing the nominee to meet with any of the members of the minority party, those are absolutely unprecedented. And they're not consistent with the bipartisanship that normally governs the Senate Armed Services Committee and how we operate.
SANCHEZ: Senator, I just want to let our viewers know, as you might be able to see on your screen, the Senate has confirmed Trump's pick to lead the CIA, John Ratcliffe. They're now moving on to that procedural vote that we were discussing on Pete Hegseth.
I do have to ask you, Senator, in regard to this latest affidavit regarding Pete Hegseth that was released by his ex-sister-in-law. His ex-wife came forward and refuted some of the claims in that affidavit, I wonder if you think that undercuts some of the claims against Hegseth.
DUCKWORTH: Please be clear what happened and that is that his ex- wife's lawyer came forward and made a statement. I understand that this woman has young children. She is terrified for her safety and her children's safety. She is still dependent on Mr. Hegseth for alimony and child support payments. This is a woman who had a safe word so that she could be rescued because she was so in fearful of this man's abuse.
If you were in that situation and the whole world was watching you had Donald Trump, the President of the United States, the entire Republican Party threatening you and Pete Hegseth, the guy that owes you alimony, what would you do? Go talk to sexual assault survivors. Go talk to domestic violence survivors. They probably would be reacting the same way she is, which is she's fearing for her life, she's fearing for her children and she's fearing for her financial well-being. I'm not surprised that her lawyer would make that kind of a statement.
SANCHEZ: Have you had a chance to speak directly with her, Senator? We are not allowed to speak with her and the FBI was not allowed to. You know, again, the FBI spoke with her. But a lot of the FBI report was redacted or not included in the FBI report because this is the Trump administration sets the parameters for what is going to be in the FBI report.
SANCHEZ: Senator Tammy Duckworth, we appreciate your time. Thank you so much for joining us this afternoon. I do want to share again live pictures from the floor of the Senate with our viewers. This is a key procedural vote on Pete Hegseth for Secretary of Defense. As the senator just said to us, we don't know exactly what is going to happen. So will Republicans fall in line in backing Donald Trump's pick to lead the Pentagon? We'll find out in a moment. Stay with us.
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