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HHS Nominee RFK Jr. Faces Senate Confirmation Hearing. Aired 1- 1:30p ET
Aired January 29, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CRAPO: ... you're almost at 9 minutes, sir.
WARNOCK: Well, I -- I -- I need an answer, yes or no? Yes or no, do -- do you...
KENNEDY: I -- I'm not going to answer yes or no...
WARNOCK: ... support...
KENNEDY: ... to a question that's not susceptible to an honest yes or no answer...
WARNOCK: OK, I can't get an answer...
CRAPO: We need to move on.
WARNOCK: I -- I think that you find it difficult to answer basic questions is deeply troubling for me. As you present yourself as a nominee to -- to run HHS. Thank you so very much.
CRAPO: Senator Smith?
KENNEDY: I -- you know, (ph) I -- I've (ph) been in courts all over the country and prosecutors (ph)...
WARNOCK: Mr. Chairman, you told me I'm out of time and he's (ph) continues to...
CRAPO: (Inaudible).
WARNOCK: ... filibuster even after I said I'm done.
CRAPO: Senator Smith?
SMITH: Mr. Chair, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair and Ranking Member and welcome, Mr. Kennedy.
So, Mr. Kennedy, I don't have a question for you on abortion. I think that my colleagues on both sides of the aisle have covered this, but I want to say, I can respect people who have different views than mine on this issue, but it's hard for me to respect people who won't give a straight answer to what they think, on this issue in particular. Mr. Chair, I just want to note that I -- I understand that anti-choice advocates have said that in these hearings, they were looking to hear Mr. Kennedy provide some reassurance that he is on their side, and I'm not hearing that.
And I think most Americans are looking for some hint that the decisions that people make about abortion should be personal and private and they should be free to make those decisions without government interference and I'm not hearing that either.
To make it worse, the answers that you have given tell me that the Trump administration is more than willing to restrict or even ban medication abortion without a single act of Congress and even in states where abortion is legal. And what is clear to me is that you and President Trump are dangerous to women's access to mefrapristone (ph).
So, having said that, I want to move to a different topic, Mr. Kennedy, I appreciate Senator Cornyn's questions about mental and behavioral health, something that I care a lot about. I know that you and your family have had personal experience with mental health challenges, as have I.
And I agree that the mental health crisis in this country is a -- is a crisis. So, let me ask you, in an interview in 2023 and again in 2024, you blamed school shootings on antidepressants. You said, and this is a quote "there is no time in American history or human history that kids are going to shoot schools and shooting their class mates. It really started happening coterminous (ph) with the introduction of these drugs, with Prozac and with other drugs".
So, do you believe as you've said that antidepressants cause (ph) the school shootings? This is a -- should be a simple question.
KENNEDY: I -- I don't think anybody could answer that question. And I didn't answer that question, I said it...
SMITH: So (ph)...
KENNEDY: ... should be studied...
SMITH: ... so your answer is...
KENNEDY: I said it should be studied along with other potential culprits like...
SMITH: So (ph), they may cause...
KENNEDY: ... social media, and well (ph) (inaudible)...
SMITH: ... they (ph)...
KENNEDY: ... but I don't know. I would never make -- because there's no science on that, Senator.
SMITH: Well, there is, Senator -- I mean -- excuse me, there is Mr. Kennedy...
KENNEDY: Thank you for the promotion.
SMITH: ... the -- the science shows that there is no link between school shootings and antidepressants. And in fact, most school shooters were not even treated with antidepressants, and of those that were, there was no evidence of association.
You know...
KENNEDY: I -- I don't think you could say...
SMITH: ... my question is...
KENNEDY: ... that, Senator, because of (ph) HIPA rules, nobody knows.
SMITH: Well, that is -- Mr. Kennedy, do you think that people who take antidepressants are dangerous?
KENNEDY: I -- I -- I think -- I -- listen, I'm not going into HHS, if I'm privileged to be confirmed, with any...
SMITH: So, you can't say that people who...
KENNEDY: ... to -- to -- to -- to impose any preconceived ideas I may have. I'm -- just want to have good science.
SMITH: So, you're not saying that they aren't dangerous, which means that they could be...
KENNEDY: That's (ph)...
SMITH: ... dangerous. Let me ask you this...
KENNEDY: ... that's not true (inaudible)...
SMITH: ... you've described Americans who take mental health medication as addicts who need to be sent to wellness farms to recover, is that what you believe?
KENNEDY: No, of course I didn't say that they -- anybody...
SMITH: (Inaudible).
KENNEDY: ... should be compelled to do anything...
SMITH: No, but you said they should be sent...
KENNEDY: I said it should be available...
SMITH: ... there (ph) you described folks...
KENNEDY: ... to them. I didn't say they should be sent...
SMITH: You said that folks that...
KENNEDY: ... kicking and screaming.
SMITH: ... take antidepressants are like addicts. That I -- I can provide that (inaudible) care...
KENNEDY: Oh, (inaudible) they -- they (ph) should have the availability -- listen, I know people, including...
SMITH: So...
KENNEDY: ... members of my family who've had a much worse time getting off of SSRIs than they did -- than people that (ph) -- have getting off of (ph) heroin. It's -- the -- the withdrawal period is a -- a -- I mean and -- and it's written on the...
SMITH: I actually have...
KENNEDY: ... label, this is (ph) very well documented.
SMITH: ... I have some experience with this myself, Mr. Kennedy. I -- this is personal for me. When I was a young woman, and I was struggling with depression, thankfully, I had the resources to help me get through it, including a new generation of SSRI update reinhibitors (ph) which helped to clear my mind, get me back on track to being a mom and a wife and a productive happy person. And I really grateful for that therapy. So, I have some experience with this.
[13:05:00]
And I think that everyone should have access to that care, and your job as Secretary is to expand access to care, not to spread lies and misinformation. And you know, the things that you say, Mr. Kennedy, they live on. They have impact.
And you know, we're having this conversation at the same moment that my Republican colleagues are looking to try to figure out how to save money any way they can, and so they want to cut Medicaid. Let's just think about this for a minute, because you're going to be -- should you be confirmed, you would be responsible for CMS, which provides mental and behavioral healthcare to millions of Americans.
Close to 40 percent of folks on Medicaid have a behavioral health condition, and you would be part of this administration that would be looking to cut Medicaid. So, Mr. Kennedy, these statements that you've made linking antidepressants to school shootings, they reinforce the stigma that people who experience mental health every day face every single day.
And I'm very concerned that this is another example of your record of sharing false and misleading information that actually really hurts people.
KENNEDY: Senator, you're mischaracterizing...
SMITH: Thank you, Mr. (inaudible)...
KENNEDY: ... my statements. SMITH: I am only putting into the record what you have said, Mr. Kennedy.
KENNEDY: You -- you're (ph) mischaracterizing my statements, and I -- I'm happy that you had a good experience on SSRIs, many Americans have had very (ph) good experience on it, others have not...
SMITH: Well (ph), that would (ph) be an issue between them and their physicians and not...
KENNEDY: And the (ph) -- exactly...
SMITH: ... the future Head of HHS to be just (ph) putting out misinformation...
KENNEDY: Exactly.
SMITH: ... about the dangers of -- of SSRIs and other anti-depression medication, spreading the stigma and the fear that we actually trying to overcome.
KENNEDY: Do you -- do you think, physicians, when they make that prescription ought to have access to good science?
SMITH: Of course they do. And I will (ph) think that...
KENNEDY: (Inaudible) that's all I believe too. And you and I are in agreement, Senator.
SMITH: And to your point that you made when you made these statements, it was not based on good science. I don't know what it was based on...
KENNEDY: I was saying the science needed to be done. I was saying these are potential culprits (inaudible) coterminous (ph) and I named other things, I said video games, I said social media, I said SSRIs -- SSRIs have a black box warning -- warning of suicide or homicidal behavior...
SMITH: Mr. Chair -- Mr. Chair, I will submit to the Chair, the information that I have about what Mr. Kennedy has said linking antidepressants to school shootings. Thank you.
CRAPO: Senator Young?
YOUNG: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good to see you, Mr. Kennedy.
To follow up on that spirited exchange, in talking with you and -- and -- and reading about your vision for the Department, you've said one of your goals is to return public health agencies to the gold standard of scientific review. You've alluded to the gold standard a number of times today.
So, I'm going to give you an opportunity uninterrupted, but hopefully not too extensive to tell me and others what you mean by this gold standard. KENNEDY: The gold standard means real scientific research with replication of studies, which very rarely happens now at NIH. We should be giving at least 20 percent of the NIH budgets to replication. We should have the -- make sure that all the science is published with the raw data. We should make sure that the peer reviews are also published. We, and, you know, and I'll give you a quick example. Twenty years ago, HH or NIH scientists did a study on amyloid, on Alzheimer's, which they said it was caused by amyloid black. After that, NIH shut down studies of any other hypothesis. Twenty years later, we now know that those studies were fraudulent.
NIH has funded 800 studies on a fraudulent hypothesis, and we've lost 20 years in figuring out how to cure for Alzheimer's and that's just one example. I could give you hundreds. We need to end that. We need to end the old boy system. We need to have replicatable science and be completely transparent about raw data.
YOUNG: All right. Thank you, sir.
In recent years, particularly during the COVID pandemic, there's been a lot of skepticism about our public health institutions. Some of this, I would say is warranted, but it's now created a pervasive lack of trust from the public that these institutions are acting in bad faith or failing to act in objective with objective criteria. Failing in short to, to act in the best interests of the public.
If confirmed, Mr. Kennedy, how will you work to regain the public's trust? I suspect it will take some time in these important public health institutions.
KENNEDY: I'm through radical transparency. I'm going to make these the reason people don't trust the -- the public health agencies ...
[13:10:00]
YOUNG: Yes.
KENNEDY: ... because they haven't been trustworthy. And you, the example of COVID at the beginning of COVID. Everybody was rushing to get that vaccine. We had over 90 percent vaccination uptake.
YOUNG: Yes, sir.
KENNEDY: CDC's most recent recommendation is that Americans take the eighth (ph) booster. Only 23 percent of Americans are complying. That means 77 percent of Americans no longer trust CDC. And that is the problem.
YOUNG: Yes, sir. In the absence of full information might it to -- to, I think, agree with you, but I want your response. Might it make sense to share that absence of full information with the American people, that uncertainty? I think one of the things, by observation and experience that I saw during the pandemic, because we had certain prominent doctors appear on television and indicate, no, you absolutely must not wear a mask. Two weeks later, it's yes, you must wear a mask. But they were certain. And they even demonized people for not following the latest science, knowing there's a high level of uncertainty in that science.
Would a measure of humility, and as you say, radical transparency demonstrates humility, help rebuild trust over a period of years?
KENNEDY: Absolutely. We need to tell Americans what we don't know. We need to make sure studies that reach a null hypothesis are also published. And that doesn't happen.
YOUNG: Sir, I think you are right about why health care costs are so high in the first place. The answer is indeed chronic disease, 90 percent of our healthcare spending goes towards managing it. As you say in your open statement. It's not in the main because of waste, fraud and abuse, although we -- we know some exist, it's not in the main because we have greedy executives at -- at innovative world class companies. It's not in the main because we haven't yet adopted an unsustainable Medicare for all scheme. It's because of this.
So, I'm encouraged that you -- you intend to make that a point of -- of emphasis as it pertains to your -- your future leadership.
I will say with respect to COVID, it's not over for a lot of Americans. It's not over. I know the mission accomplished banner was convenient for the last administration, but as we continue to navigate the ongoing impacts of the COVID pandemic, we have many individuals here in the United States and around the world who are suffering from long term health effects that significantly impact their quality of life, work and daily activities, and they've been largely ignored.
Funding for long COVID research was appropriated by Congress in December of 2020, followed by additional funding directed by the Biden administration in February 2024. Patient groups and industry publications have criticized the slow pace of clinical trial design and enrollment.
If confirmed, will you collaborate with healthcare providers, researchers, and effective communities to better understand and mitigate long COVID's impact? Yes or no, please.
KENNEDY: Absolutely, Senator. There's 16 million Americans.
YOUNG: Will you commit to prioritizing long COVID research and integrate this work in a broader health care policies? Yes or no, please.
KENNEDY: Yes.
YOUNG: Patient groups, experts and industry publications have raised concerns around existing long COVID funding being spent on observational research. In particular, criticism was directed towards recover funding being used to duplicate existing findings instead of funding trials for potential treatments or diagnostics.
If confirmed, Mr. Kennedy, will you work with Congress so that going forward, long COVID funding will be directed primarily towards trial or novel research directions and not replicating existing observational research? Yes, or no? KENNEDY: Absolutely, Senator with enthusiasm.
YOUNG: Thank you so much.
If confirmed, how will you create a balance between your personal priorities of chronic disease and healthy lifestyle and the ongoing critical work of the department in areas that are focused on incentivizing and advancing innovation in modern medicine and pharmaceutical discovery?
KENNEDY: I think innovation is going to be the key to public health. And we have a unique opportunity now in history because of AI, because of telemedicine, and because of the quality of people that are now coming to HHS to actually save public health. But it's all going to rely on innovation, and I don't want to do anything that inhibits or impairs the pace of innovation.
[13:15:00]
YOUNG: That's encouraging from approving AI algorithms to determining Medicare coverage. We need -- we certainly need more innovation, and we need good people in the department to assist with that effort.
So, I'll follow up with a question about how you're going to attract and retain good people.
Thank you, Chairman.
CRAPO: Sorry to shut you down a little faster than I did the others, Senator Young. We are up against a vote deadline here. And we have one more senator who gets his full time. I hope you'll keep it as close to five minutes as you can, Senator Welch. And then I've promised Senator Wyden what, five more minutes?
WYDEN: To be divided one minute with my colleagues. Yeah.
CRAPO: And then if we can do that, we can get over to vote before they call the vote on the floor.
WELCH: Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Kennedy. And, as you know I'm a big have great reverence for your family from Massachusetts when I got, when I got out of college, I was in the first class of Robert Kennedy fellows, the memorial created by your family to honor the service of your father. I do community organizing and in the west side of Chicago and I certainly admire your energy in your effort here and desire to serve.
You know, there's a couple of things that are really important here. This is not just about a debate on vaccines. It's a debate about qualifications, experience and priorities as to the person that will head Health and Human Services. And it's not just about what your answers are today or what the questions are. It obviously has a lot to do with your whole record and your whole history.
You know, your sister in her letter, or pardon me, your cousin in her letter said you've always been charismatic, able to attract others through the strength of your personality, willingness to take risks and break rules. That's, I guess, an attribute, but it can be a danger. The question I fundamentally have is whether your willingness to disrupt and maybe break rules is going to be dangerous and destructive.
The character questions we didn't go into here, but there's some sketchy things you've acknowledged your history with heroin. You've gotten over that, but there's incidents that do, I think, concern the question of whether the stability is there to be in charge of this major organization. And that's compounded by my concern that you don't have any experience managing a large organization. That you don't have any experience in government. So those are things that have to be taken into account.
But the issue for me is also priorities. A lot of your engagement in health has been on vaccines. Big, important issue. You actually disagreed, as I understand it, with President Trump about Operation Warp Speed. I think President Trump deserves a lot of credit for Operation Warp Speed. He knew we had to get a vaccine. And these other issues about a mask and whether you should wear it whether when you got your groceries, the bag had to be left outside. Remember that in the very beginning? Those are incidental to the core question that the President believed we had to have a vaccine. And you contested that. That worries me. That really deeply worries me.
The other questions, Senator Cassidy asked you some questions about our healthcare system. I happen to believe that our healthcare system is profoundly broken. And it's not just about the chronic illnesses, that's about our diet, that's about our exercise. But we are getting premium increases in Vermont of 20 percent a year, 25 percent a year, and it's busting the bank. For taxpayers, it's busting the bank. For our wonderful Vermont employers who care about having health insurances they can apply, provide to their employees.
Senator Cassidy asked you a couple of questions about how you would reform Medicaid. And I didn't hear an answer. You mentioned that you thought Medicare Advantage was good. You have a good plan. No -- no focus on what an incredible rip off was reported in the Wall Street Journal by UnitedHealthcare, which was marketing Medicare Advantage and then paying doctors and nurses where they had assignments essentially to over, over it diagnosed illnesses that didn't exist. So, they made hundreds -- they made billions and billions of dollars.
And I've seen nothing coming out of the Trump administration. And I've seen nothing coming out of your advocacy that is going after what is a rampant abuse by the insurance companies and overcharging people in not doing the job. And by the way, the UnitedHealthcare people, when they did that, they over diagnosed. When the person really got sick, they dumped them. They dumped them. Go to the nursing home on your own. That's a broken healthcare system. We spend the most and get the least. And I think there should be collective anger about this on both sides, because all of our people are dependent on that health care system.
[13:20:20] And you're going to be working for a president who's on a lawless rampage right now, OK? He has done something reckless with the pardons to these cop beaters. I'm appalled by that. But, that's just reckless. That's not illegal. He's impounded money.
So right now, the Medicaid website went down. He's impounded money. So, the community health centers that Senator Warner was talking about are up in the air as to what they can do.
Do you believe that a president can impound money that has been appropriated by Congress?
KENNEDY: Senator, I -- let me answer the question about Medicare first. I have never defended that program or the rapacious behavior by insurance companies or the PBMs. I understand that's a huge problem and ...
WELCH: All right, there's a -- I don't have time. We've got to get over to vote. So, we can do this ...
KENNEDY: But you've asked me five questions. You've got to give me a chance to answer one of them.
CRAPO: Please be brief.
KENNEDY: Yeah, I -- I -- I've appointed, I brought in, if I get confirmed, I've already appointed a general counsel. It's the first time in history as a former prosecutor who prosecuted the biggest Medicare fraud in the case in the state of West Virginia. I brought in a prosecutor for that job instead of a bureaucrat precisely to address the important issues that you raise here. The only reason I didn't talk about these before is because I wasn't asked about them.
WELCH: What about ...
KENNEDY: I agree with you 100 percent.
WELCH: All right. What about impounding, a president impounding money that, among other things, goes to health care?
KENNEDY: And you're saying that that's illegal?
WELCH: That's correct.
KENNEDY: Well, my job is to uphold the constitution. I'm going to take an oath to uphold the constitution and I will administer the law and uphold the constitution.
(OFF-MIC)
WYDEN: Mr. Chairman, I -- I believe under what we've discussed, I control five minutes. I'm going to take one and give one to each of my four colleagues that remain.
CRAPO: All right. And I would just say we really -- this vote, they're going to call it in about eight minutes. WYDEN: Thank you.
CRAPO: So, we have very little time.
WYDEN: Two, two hours ago, colleagues, I asked Mr. Kennedy to reconcile his many anti-vaccine statements with his handful of pro- vaccine statements. Instead, he gave us a word salad and ducked the issue. The same was true Mr. Kennedy, with respect to measles, where you wrote a book playing down the threat. You know, of measles, even though American families are very concerned about it. And apparently, families are still mourning in Samoa.
And my last point would be that Mr. Kennedy said today really wasn't about him. And I just want to tell him it is all about you. Because I find your presentation to be both untrustworthy and unprepared. Because my colleagues have been seeing back and forth between Medicare and Medicaid and it's not clear which program you're using when.
So, I want colleagues to know there is a lot more information to learn about Mr. Kennedy before we vote. I'm going to urge that to my colleagues on both sides of the aisle, to not make decisions on the basis of this session.
And I thank you for the additional time. And I guess my next minute is Senator Whitehouse, Senator Warren, and Senator Smith.
CRAPO: And, again, one minute each, please.
(CROSSTALK)
WYDEN: Senator Warnock.
WHITEHOUSE: There's been a lot of conversation about long -- late-term abortions here, and I just want to make clear what Rhode Island OB-GYN doctors describe as what is almost always happening when a late-term abortion is needed. It is a child birth gone wrong. The family has painted the room. It has bought the crib, maybe even decided on the baby's name, and has gone to the hospital to welcome the new baby into their family in what is supposed to be a happy event.
And then things went wrong. Then the alarms started pinging, the lights started flashing, the medical professionals started rushing in. And the question became, who lives and who dies? The mom's life is often at risk. And she may have other children she needs to care for. The baby's life may be at risk. And one or both may die.
[13:25:00]
In that environment, the doctors and the family own that decision. Government has no place in that room at that point. And I think we need to understand when this late-term abortion gets bandied about, what you are dealing with is a tragedy that is happening to a family who wanted that child and has suddenly been confronted with a moment in which they have to make what is probably going to be the worst decision of their lives. And to try to shove the state legislature into that room is really offensive, really morally wrong. And I just want to make very clear what Rhode Island OB-GYNs tell me is the situation when these procedures have to be deployed.
CRAPO: Senator Warren.
WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
So, Mr. Kennedy, I wanted to ask about your role in the 2019 a measles outbreak of Samoa. In July, 2018, two children died immediately after receiving a measles vaccine that nurses had mistakenly mixed with a muscle relaxant. The nurses get charged with manslaughter. But vaccination rates go down. I asked you about this in my office. You told me flatly that your to Samoa had nothing to do with vaccinations. We now know that's not true. I have the documentation. You met with the prime minister. You talked about vaccinations. You met with an anti-vaccine influencer, who described the meeting as, quote, "profoundly monumental for this movement."
So what happens? Vaccinations go down. There is a measles outbreak. And children start dying. But you double down. You didn't give up. Just four days after the prime minister declared a state of emergency, 16 people already dead, you sent a letter to him promoting the idea that the children had died not from measles but from, quote, "defective vaccines." You launched the idea that a measles vaccine caused these deaths.
You are a very influential man. In fact, you are called the leader of the "disinformation dozen." Multiple -- UNICEF and WHO, the World Health Organization, investigated this. They say the claims are false. It is not biologically possible what you claimed. And yet ultimately more than 70 people died because they didn't get vaccines.
So my question is, do you accept even a scintilla, just even a sliver of responsibility for the drop in vaccinations and the subsequent deaths of more than 70 people? Anything you would do differently?
KENNEDY: No, absolutely not. After the -- there were two incidents which children died in 2015 and again 2018. 2015 it was from the measles vaccine, as with the New Zealand general hospital found the government of Samoa banned the measles vaccine after the 2018. I arrived in July of the next year after the ban had been...
WARREN: Mr. Chairman...
KENNEDY: Had been in place for a year.
WARREN: Mr. Chairman...
KENNEDY: Had the measles...
WARREN: ... understanding that you wanted to hold this to a minute, and that I don't get to present all the facts and documentation I've got, how about if we just decide to make entries for the record on exactly what the record shows about Mr. Kennedy's participation? And I think he's answered the yes or no question. He takes no responsibility...
(CROSSTALK)
CRAPO: Senator Warren, we will do that.
And, Mr. Kennedy, and to all the senators, every senator knows that following this hearing, they will be able to ask you questions off the record, and you will be able to put answers back onto the record. So please give that answer. I apologize that we are shutting you off from giving a full response right now.
Senator Smith. And we are way over time.
SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
So, Mr. Kennedy, you have said that you want to give infectious diseases a break for about eight years. You spoke about this with Senator Cantwell. My question for you has to do with avian flu. Over a hundred million birds culled. The disease has spread to dairy cows. And there are now 67 confirmed human cases and one death.
So, Mr. Kennedy, do you intend to give research on bird flu a break?
KENNEDY: No, I intend to devote the appropriate resources to prevent a pandemic. That's an essential part of my job.
SMITH: What you think is causing the avian influenza?
KENNEDY: I think the H5N1 virus is.
SMITH: So that's good to hear, because in a recent book, I will submit this for the record because we don't have that much time, Mr. Kennedy has questioned the scientific basis for germs causing disease and the power of vaccines and antibiotics to cure disease.
[13:30:00]