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HHS Nominee RFK Jr Faces Senate Confirmation Hearing; Trump White House Rescinds Federal Aid Freeze; Leavitt: Recission For OMB Memo Only, Aid Freeze Continues. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired January 29, 2025 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:30:00]

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN RESOURCES NOMINEE: I think the H5N1 virus is.

SEN. TINA SMITH (D-MI): So that's good to hear. Because, in a recent book, I will submit this for the record, because we don't have that much time, Mr. Kennedy has questioned the scientific basis for germs causing disease and the power of vaccines and antibiotics.

(CONFIRMATION HEARING FOR RFK JR STARTS AT 13:30:00 AND ENDS AT 13:33:19.

[13:33:19]

SEN. MIKE CRAPO (R-ID): And, Mr. Kennedy, I look forward to working with you.

KENNEDY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

(CHEERING)

CRAPO: We're adjourned.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: We have been watching what has, at times, been a testy confirmation hearing for RFK Jr as he seeks confirmation as Donald Trump's secretary of Health and Human Services.

Thanks so much for sharing part of your afternoon with us. I'm Boris Sanchez alongside Jessica Dean here in Washington.

And we're actually following two breaking stories this hour. Moments ago, the White House announced it has rescinded the federal aid freeze, a freeze that sparked chaos and uncertainty for key important programs that impact millions and millions of Americans. We have more on that in a moment.

But first, back to Capitol Hill. Robert F. Kennedy Jr wrapping up hours of questioning from Senators in his bid to be HHS secretary.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: Kennedy is a highly controversial pick who has a long history of pushing false statements about vaccines. And today, he tried to downplay his vaccine skepticism before lawmakers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNEDY: News reports have claimed that I am anti-vaccine or any industry. I am neither.

(SHOUTING)

KENNEDY: I am pro-safety.

(SHOUTING)

(GAVEL)

(SHOUTING)

(GAVEL)

CRAPO: We'll have order.

Please proceed, Mr. Kennedy.

KENNEDY: I am pro-safety. I worked for years to raise awareness about the mercury and toxic chemicals in fish. And nobody called me any fish. And I believe that my -- that vaccines play a critical role in health care.

CRAPO: All right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[13:35:04]

DEAN: So while Kennedy was speaking, you heard the protesters there in the background.

Let's go now to CNN's Lauren Fox, who is live on the Hill. Lauren's been monitoring this hearing all morning and well into the afternoon.

Lauren, just key takeaways from a hearing that spanned several hours.

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, this was really an opportunity for RFK Jr to establish a new record on what he has said in the past about vaccine.

Really trying to downplay past commentary that he has made about vaccines, past commentary that he had made about vaccines being linked to things like autism, which is obviously scientifically not true.

But it's also an opportunity for Democrats to point out repeatedly that RFK is in a very different position than many Republicans on a very key issue, and that is the issue of abortion.

You had heard repeatedly Democrats pointing out his past commentary on that issue, his past -- his past issues with that very important question of whether or not he was supportive of abortion or not.

He just repeated over and over again that Donald Trump is the president, that he will follow Donald Trump when it comes to that issue. But that has been something that, in private meetings, Jessica, has come up again and again with conservatives.

You know, Maggie Hassan really drilled down on that issue and repeatedly asked him, you know, is it just politically convenient in this moment for you to be making these comments, despite what you have said for the last several years on this issue? So that was obviously a really interesting moment.

Once again, though, Republicans really taking it pretty easy on RFK Jr.

I do want to highlight one exchange that I thought was so notable, which was a very intense exchange between him and Senator Bill Cassidy over really weedy topics of Medicaid and what reforms did Cassidy believe that RFK Jr might want to see to that program.

And it became very clear through the course of that questioning that RFK Jr wasn't always aware of what Medicaid was, and especially what it was doing. And he seemed to be confused at points between Medicare and Medicaid. I thought that that was a really interesting moment.

In part, because Cassidy is a swing vote here. It's not clear whether or not Cassidy is going to support him. He's also going to be leading the hearing tomorrow before the health committee, when RFK Jr will go before that committee.

So it's a really interesting note, given the fact that we don't know how Cassidy is going to vote. And after the hearing, Cassidy came out of the hearing room and he would not comment to reporters on what he thought of the performance today.

So I just think that that's a really interesting note because, again, Republicans have a majority in the Senate. They can get this nomination through without a single Democratic vote, but they only have an ability to lose a handful of Republicans.

And we saw last week just what a narrow majority that looks like when it came to the Pete Hegseth vote.

Again, they can only lose three Republicans. If they lose four, then this nomination does not advance. So I just thought that was a really interesting moment. Jessica, to point out.

DEAN: All right.

SANCHEZ: Yes. Perhaps it gives a glimpse of -- of what may come when Senator Cassidy casts his ballot.

Lauren Fox, thank you so much, from Capitol Hill.

Let's discuss further now with our experts. CNN chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN political analyst and Washington bureau chief for the "Boston Globe," Jackie Kucinich, and CNN senior political analyst, Mark Preston.

Sanjay, first to you.

Remind us of the scope of the position that Kennedy is trying to earn here, and also how his previous comments on vaccines may have impacted the rates of people that actually go and get them.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well, it's a huge job. I mean, essentially, he's CEO of -- of what could be described as the largest health enterprise in the world.

Health, medical, scientific enterprises, almost a $2 trillion budget, if you count discretionary spending, 80,000 employees, huge decisions.

And you get a glimpse of it. I mean, he talked about everything from Medicare Advantage to abortion to agricultural policy to Covid.

One question only, by the way, about a potential pandemic in H5N1. That came 3.5 hours into these -- these hearings. So that was that was interesting, given the importance of that.

I think, you know, measuring the impact of misinformation is -- it's a challenging thing, obviously, because these aren't yes or no questions.

But if you take vaccines specifically and just say, how likely are parents to vaccinate their kids now versus just a few years ago, for example.

In 2021, it was around 90 percent of people said, absolutely, we'd vaccinate our kids. Now it's closer to 82 percent, which may not seem like a huge drop, except that when you start to drop even small percentage points, you start to lose what is known as herd immunity.

So, all of a sudden, not just those kids, but the entire community is at larger risk. So, you know, you sort of see examples of that with vaccines specifically. But I think with a lot of the issues that he brought up today.

[13:40:00]

DEAN: It is really fascinating.

And Sanjay, another -- another issue, of course, that they touched on was abortion. And Lauren walked us through kind of the politics of it.

But -- but the -- but the -- the actual medicine behind, for example, Mifepristone and what he thinks about that.

GUPTA: So this is interesting. And I think it's metaphorical for a lot of things that came up with him today, because I think what you often get in the context is, hey, look, we need to study this more.

I think one of the Senators held up 40 studies and said, hey, it's been studied.

And it's the same sort of thing that you hear about these other vaccines. He says, well, we just need full transparency, radical transparency.

There's these gigantic studies, for example, with vaccines and autism, another example, that show that there is no link. Hundreds of thousands of kids followed over years to sort of make that clear.

And I think the same thing with Mifepristone. There have been all these studies showing just how safe it is, how effective it is up to 10 weeks after pregnancy. So we know these questions.

The reason that this -- this constant refrain comes up, that we're just asking the questions, we just need to see the science, is to sort of throw a little bit of cold water on some of these things. And I think that's what you saw today as well.

SANCHEZ: Sanjay, what would be some of your questions for RFK Jr?

GUPTA: I mean, you know, it's interesting. I think the vaccines and autism thing is such an interesting thing. It's a specific issue. But I think it represents so much about how he thinks about things.

He says that -- he said that he had his own kids vaccinated. I think one of the questions that comes up is, would he do it again today? Because he subsequently said he regretted having his kids vaccinated?

I think it's an important question to sort of figure out where he really lands on these things and how it's going to affect policy.

I'll tell you what I was surprised by. The -- the Make America Healthy Again sort of part of this, that -- that's a widely supported thing. I mean, everyone sort of agrees with that.

We spend nearly $5 trillion on health care. We have terrible health outcomes. Our food is terrible in this country. We know all that. Part of the reason I went into medical journalism was to try and report on some of these issues.

So what are you going to do about it? What he basically said is, hey, I don't care what people eat as long as they know what they're eating. That's not a policy. People already know what they're eating, and we still have terrible food in this country.

So, you know, if you're going to have a job like the one that I just described -- and I think he may be able to do something about this, I really do.

He may be the guy, in some ways, that could disrupt a lot of that. But how? What are the plans here? And I think, even though he was asked over and over again, we did not hear the specifics that I thought he might talk about today.

DEAN: And in terms of just baseline, I hear you on all of that. Because, Sanjay, what is striking is that's where he certainly does get a lot of -- a lot more support, is that people, especially parents, are afraid of what they're feeding their kids.

So while you -- while we didn't hear a policy, what can be done, I mean, to -- to help with that.

GUPTA: Really unhealthy food is really cheap.

DEAN: Yes.

GUPTA: That's -- that's the basic problem here, is that when you talk about cutting funding and things like that, you're really, really penalizing people who don't have that much money to begin with.

The reason they're buying unhealthy food is because you can buy a lot of calories for cheap in this country. That's it.

They've -- they've tried to talk about processed foods. What we find in this country often is that when foods come out, like with certain ingredients missing, that ingredients that aren't found in European foods, Americans don't buy it. They don't buy those foods. Which is why the market actually starts to divert back to these really wildly unhealthy foods.

It's a problem. It's a huge problem. It's been a problem for decades. But again, it gets back to this point of, what are you going to do about it? In some ways, blaming the consumer has not really been effective.

What are the policy points you're going to do to actually make healthy food less expensive? Right now, you know, it costs more to buy a simple apple than it does a caramelized apple.

DEAN: That can rot, right, pretty quickly.

GUPTA: Exactly.

DEAN: Yes, yes, yes.

GUPTA: So, you know, I mean, these are these are real issues. And I think, again, has a lot of support. But what are you going to do about it? How are you going to disrupt all that?

SANCHEZ: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, always great to have your expertise and analysis. Thanks so much.

GUPTA: You got it. Thank you.

SANCHEZ: So on to our other breaking news. CNN has learned that the Trump White House has rescinded its freeze on federal aid. It comes after widespread confusion and conflicting messages on who would have been affected.

Let's get right to CNN's Jeff Zeleny.

Jeff, what are you hearing?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Boris, this is a dramatic and major reversal here at the White House, really encapsulating what has been a very confusing 40 hours or so. As you said, the White House, we are learning now, is ordering that

this freeze on all programs be rescinded. We got word of this in yet another memorandum not announced by the White House press secretary or any official, but simply in a one-page document that was sent across the government.

It says this, if you -- it says, "Memorandum M2513 -- that was the memorandum signed Monday night -- "is rescinded. If you have any questions about implementing the president's executive orders, please contact your agency general counsel."

[13:45:03]

That is it. But what we do know is the White House was facing considerable backlash about the question and the -- the impact that the freezing of these programs was having across the country.

I'm told that they were hearing from a variety of Republican lawmakers as well. A, they were caught off guard by this on Monday night and not given a heads up. And, B, the White House yesterday tried to explain it as a media fabrication that there was a controversy about this.

The controversy was very real in the lawmaker's offices. The lawmakers that we've been speaking with were saying that they were just hearing an earful from their constituents. Much concern over grant funding, Head Start meals, et cetera.

Yesterday, at the White House briefing, the press secretary, Karoline Leavitt, said individuals would not be affected. Perhaps that was so, but there was so much confusion about this.

And of course, last night a judge stepped in and temporarily blocked this, putting it on hold until Monday. But then today, the White House comes in and says we're rescinding all of this.

So this is definitely going to be something to unwind, figure out what happened. But there's no question this is the biggest speed bump, if you will, in the first nine days of the Trump administration.

And we're getting some reaction. Republican Senator Susan Collins of Maine is praising the White House's decision here. She said that, you know, every administration has the ability to review programs, which was ostensibly the reason for the Trump freeze in the first place.

But she called it overreaching. And she said it created unnecessary confusion and consternation.

So this now is essentially rescinded. We do not know if they will try and streamline this order a little bit to review these programs, but certainly a major reversal here at the White House.

This is coming just shortly before the president will be signing his first law into office, the Laken Riley Act. We will see if he talks about it at that point.

But again, no explanation from the White House aside from that one- sentence memo from the Office of Management and Budget. But this controversy we've been talking about for the last two days suddenly has been rescinded and things are back to normal.

DEAN: That's right. All right, now a lot of questions around it. As you said, we will have to unwind it.

Jeff Zeleny, there at the White House, thank you so much.

We've got Jackie Kucinich here and Mark Preston.

Jackie, I am struck by the fact that -- that this -- the -- the rescinding of this order came much like the original one did, which was by surprise.

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. And I think -- I mean, I think you heard during that hearing, maybe some members didn't quite know that this had happened yet.

But listen, as much as the White House tried to say, "It's all in the letter, look at the letter, the letter tells you everything," it didn't. And I can tell you why. Members of Congress were telling us they're getting calls incoming from constituents and not being able to explain to them what's open, what's closed.

I mean, there were questions about Meals on Wheels, Head Start, like Jeff said. I mean, really, it ran the gamut.

And it -- it -- the fact that they had to rescind it because they couldn't point to which exact programs would not be implicated, really tells you exactly why this happened. Because it was -- it was -- it wasn't going away.

MARK PRESTON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: There's going to be no political fallout, right? I mean, the fact is we're going to see this over the coming days, over the coming weeks, over the coming months, that Donald Trump is going to try to do these big, major things.

A lot of them aren't going to work because they're unconstitutional, or he just doesn't have the absolute power to do so. But we've seen that with him offering folks like eight months of pay --

DEAN: A buyout, yes.

PRESTON: -- you know, about to the whole federal government. I mean, that's insane.

DEAN: And we still don't know what's happening with foreign assistance. That -- that is -- that continues to be frozen at this point.

PRESTON: Right. Right. And he's going to continue to do this, and his supporters are still going to back him, and there's going to be no political fallout. And that's the reality.

We are in a new world now until things get really bad for people, and then it's really going to affect them. KUCINICH: I do think it's interesting you didn't hear a lot of

Republicans speak out against him yesterday. There was a lot of - -

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: -- defending it.

KUCINICH: It's fine. It's chill. It's good. Like just wait, it'll -- it'll work itself out. This happens all the time.

But based on what Jeff was saying, behind the scenes, I think they were getting some calls at the White House from Republicans and Democrats alike.

SANCHEZ: Its telling to me and fascinating that this so much echoes the first Trump administration, his first term when, in the early days of his tenure, he put out the Muslim ban that then wound up getting struck down by the courts.

He put out, I think, three or maybe four versions before it finally sort of went through because it had to be revised so many times. But it speaks to this view of the executive that is aggressive and autocratic, some would say.

PRESTON: Look, we talk a lot about and we've talked about it on the show. We've talked a lot about what our Founding Fathers wanted. They wanted three co-equal branches of government so that someone didn't get a little bit too big for their britches. Right?

Well, guess what? We're in a situation right now where Republicans own all three branches of government. And what is even more scary about that -- and I would say the same thing about the Democrats, if they had all three branches of government.

[13:50:03]

What is really scary about that is that there is no pushback right now from Republicans on Capitol Hill to just about anything that he is doing.

As Jackie was saying, everything was fine. You know, people are, oh, it's OK, like they didn't come out and criticize him at all when they should have. But that's because they all fear him.

DEAN: And backlash from their constituents, frankly, that support him

PRESTON: Oh, absolutely, 100 percent.

DEAN: Yes. And in this case, that seems to be what drove it.

Now that's not stopping Democrats from taking credit for killing this. But they didn't really have a message on this.

KUCINICH: I mean, you could see at the press conference where Chuck Schumer and several other Senators we're -- came out in front on. This was actually about, I think, January 6th pardons initially. DEAN: Yes.

KUCINICH: And they turned it into about this issue because of the news. And I think House Democrats were going to meet this afternoon.

DEAN: Yes. For, I think, about this emergency meeting, but it was very delayed.

KUCINICH: So -- exactly. So I think -- I mean, it would -- it would -- they're welcome to take credit, but I think it was probably the backlash internally from Republicans and from, you know, their own constituents that moved the needle here.

PRESTON: And let's be very clear, this was just the first shot across the bow. They're going back to every one of these programs. and there's going to be a lot of these programs that will get sacrificed.

And then we also have to realize, guess what, Donald Trump did win. Like he did get a majority, you know, of the folks who support him. So that's the situation for the next couple of years.

Democrats have got to learn how to fight back. And I will tell you, just watching that Kennedy hearing today, I think that some of them did a pretty good job. But I will tell you, overall, their attack strategy on -- on Robert F Kennedy was not very good.

KUCINICH: And it shouldn't be surprising that this is an administration that takes a very expansive look at the executive branch and executive powers. And, you know, I think lawyers are going to be a very lucrative profession. -

(LAUGHTER)

DEAN: Right.

KUCINICH: -- in this -- in this term. And you're going to see this again and again ahead of judges as outside groups try to push back over some of the things that they would consider overreach by this administration.

SANCHEZ: No doubt the courts will be busy adjudicating some of these executive orders from Trump.

I'm curious, Jackie, to get your perspective on the RFK hearings and whether you think, like, Mark, that some of the questioning from Democrats wasn't as sharp as it could have been.

KUCINICH: So I think that -- I think, as Lauren mentioned, the -- not only Bill Cassidy, who, of course, is a Republican, but I think Mark Warner about having to do with Medicare and Medicaid really showed that he wasn't as familiar with what most of what HHS does is. And that really came out with that questioning.

I'll tell you who I was watching the closest, though, was Senator Whitehouse. Senator Whitehouse from Rhode Island has a long relationship with RFK Jr. I believe they we're law school roommates. They've been hunting, fishing together.

Didn't really ask a question. Had lots to say, but didn't really ask him a question. And I know a lot of us were watching to see how he would handle that, because he's not -- he's not the only person who has a personal relationship with RFK Jr. He's a Kennedy.

But he was someone that really took the opportunity to talk more about Rhode Island and their interfacing with some HHS programs. Not really to -- to try to hold him accountable to anything he said.

PRESTON: Can we just say one thing about abortion, too? When he said -- he didn't talk about his personal view. He said he would implement whatever President Trump wanted. That was the green light for the folks who were concerned about his view on abortion, such as Joni Ernst.

He said it, but there was so much other stuff going on that it kind of got lost because Democrats kept on going back to abortion. But he actually answered it in a way that will help him with the 50 Republicans that he needs to -- to get confirmed.

DEAN: Yes, that will be interesting to watch. He, of course, has the health committee hearing tomorrow. And then, we see Tulsi Gabbard and also Kash Patel later this week.

A very busy week.

KUCINICH: It is. It is.

DEAN: A very busy week.

And, you know, different strategies obviously for each of them.

I -- just starting with Tulsi Gabbard, I do think that a lot of people have -- Republicans included, have some questions about where she stands on some of these issues and some of these things she said that some of them have -- some national security experts have said sound like Russian propaganda.

KUCINICH: And I think, because there's been a lot of talk, if she doesn't make it out of the committee, if -- if she doesn't get a majority, whether she ends up on the Senate floor, we're going to be watching that for sure.

PRESTON: You know, Tulsi Gabbard is really interesting because a lot of her support comes from not withinside Washington. In fact, none of it really comes from inside Washington. It comes from outside of Washington.

And like the podcasters of the world, the whole zeitgeist that -- you know, that most of America lives in and not, you know, the little bubble that we live in here on -- on the ACELA corridor.

So the likes of Joe Rogan and those kinds actually give her a lot of credibility that I think, if she does get through, you can look back on that and say that's probably why Republicans helped get her through.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

Mark and Jackie, appreciate the conversation.

We actually want to go back to the White House now.

Jeff Zeleny is there, and he just got a statement from Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt on this rescinding of the freeze on federal grants and loans.

[13:55:05]

What are you hearing?

ZELENY: Boris, we are hearing the first official reaction and somewhat of an explanation on this rescission that we were talking about a few moments ago.

Let's read this together. I'm not sure there's clarity at the end of this, but we will talk about it.

But the White House press secretary, Karoline Leavitt, just a few moments ago, sending out this.

"This is not a rescission of the federal funding freeze. It is simply a rescission of the OMB memo. Why? To end any confusion," she writes, "created by the court's injunction. The president's executive orders on federal funding remain in full force and effect and will be rigorously implemented."

So if that was not already a bit of a confusing 40 hours or so, I think this is only added to that.

So clearly, the White House press secretary, in a defensive explanatory mode there, saying that they are still going to commit to the president's executive orders.

Which that is what he signed last week, saying that he wants to approve any new spending and existing spending in foreign aid and diversity, equity and inclusion, money and the like.

What is less clear is if this instructive to freeze all programs, what the status of that is. So we will have to get more of a deeper understanding of this.

But her reference there to the judge's order from last night, that is a federal judge, shortly before 5:00, when this freeze was intended to take effect, stepped in and temporarily halted this and said, this is sweeping language, is, you know, potentially problematic, so put a pause on that.

So the White House says seeking to add clarity. We'll see what the White House Counsel's office says. But for now, at least, the point being, these programs are not frozen. But again, this White House, this is the biggest example yet some

questions of the ability to govern and competence certainly coming to the fore in this case -- Boris and Jessica?

DEAN: It certainly is.

Jeff Zeleny we will -- maybe we'll have another update.

SANCHEZ: More -- more clarity on the clarifying statement.

DEAN: Yes, this is still -- look, we're all still sorting through this.

OK, Jeff Zeleny, thank you very much for that reporting.

ZELENY: You bet.

SANCHEZ: At any moment, President Trump is going to sign the first bill of his second term into law. It requires undocumented immigrants be detained if they're charged or even arrested with certain crimes following the murder of nursing student, Laken Riley.

We're going to take you live for that to the White House just ahead.

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