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White House Rescinds Order that Froze Trillions in Federal Funds; HHS Nominee RFK Jr. Faces Questions at Confirmation Hearing; Sen. Tina Smith (D-MN) Discusses About Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s Confirmation Hearing; Pres. Trump Signs Laken Riley Act into Law. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired January 29, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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[15:00:16]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: President Trump's funding freeze fined. A federal judge pumping the brakes on the Trump administration's sweeping pause on federal aid now in an attempt to clear up any confusion created by the court injunction. The White House says it's rescinding the order, but not the freeze. Not confusing at all. So, what actually comes next? We'll discuss.

Plus, bipartisan concerns raised during Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s confirmation hearing. The nominee for Health and Human Services secretary pushing back on criticisms from Democrats that he's a vaccine skeptic as he tries to reassure leery conservatives about his shifting stance on abortion.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: And the President says he is considering taking arrested migrants to Guantanamo Bay. We're going to discuss the administration's immigration crackdown with Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem.

We're following these major developing stories and many more. They're all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SANCHEZ: A lot of threads to follow this afternoon. Breaking news, we're following this hour. I'm Boris Sanchez alongside Jessica Dean in for Brianna Keilar in the nation's capital, just minutes after the White House Office of Management and Budget rescinded its freeze on trillions of dollars in federal grants and loans, the White House now says that President Trump's executive order on freezing certain federal funding remains leading to a lot of confusion.

DEAN: Yes. CNN's Jeff Zeleny is following the latest for us. And Jeff, there was already so much confusion across the country about what this funding freeze meant. President Trump just did address it during that bill signing. What did he say?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: He certainly addressed a portion of it. And some of that confusion now should be dissipating because that executive order, that memorandum to the budget - the Office of Management and Budget on Monday that sparked all this confusion, that has been rescinded and that is still in effect. The President simply doubling down on executive orders that he signed that he says are aligned with his beliefs and ideology on eliminating some foreign aid, on eliminating a diversity, equity and inclusion programs.

But he did not accept the blame for this confusion that has been sown over this, really, which we've been hearing from Republicans and Democrats alike. Instead, he said he's trying to rein in the federal bureaucracy.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There was a short-term pause or funding freeze on certain discretionary spending payments such as government grants, only for us to quickly look at the scams, dishonesty, waste and abuse that's taken place in our government for too long. As was explicitly stated, this in no way affected Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid or other entitlements that Americans depend on.

ZELENY: So, yes, Social Security, Medicare was never part of this. Medicaid, however, the government health insurance for lower income Americans, there was a pause on that yesterday. But the bigger question was on just a variety of a federal program, some $3 trillion worth, everything from Pell Grants to some agg loans to really everything running the gamut. But that was placed on pause yesterday when a federal judge stepped in in the wake of a series of lawsuits. Other attorneys general also filed suit.

So for now, at least, this rescission of that program means that things should go back to last week. And last week, of course, the President signed those executive orders trying to put his imprint on the federal government, again, restricting some of those programs.

So there's no question about it. When you break all this down, the bottom line is an incredibly large reversal here at the White House. They've been placing blame outside. Clearly, they decided that the backlash they were hearing, we've heard from a lot of people, it was simply not done properly. So, perhaps also wanting to avoid a court case coming on Monday.

So, for now, that rescinded but the White House, not surprisingly, perhaps, not acknowledging a considerable walk back. Boris and Jessica?

SANCHEZ: And we'll see if that order gets resurrected somehow moving forward. Jeff Zeleny from the White House, thank you so much.

Meantime, on Capitol Hill, lawmakers are soon going to weigh the fate of President Trump's highly controversial pick to lead the Department of Health and Human Services. Today, we watched senators grilled Robert F. Kennedy Jr. during his confirmation hearing. They pressed him about his anti-vaccine rhetoric and asked him specifically about abortion, health care costs, chronic diseases and food safety.

[15:04:59]

DEAN: If confirmed, Kennedy would be in charge of a sprawling government department that includes the very agencies that approve vaccines. Let's turn now to CNN Chief Medical Correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, who is here with us in the studio.

It's always good to have you here in person.

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Thank you.

DEAN: I just want to start first there with vaccines, vaccine skepticism. What were your takeaways in that arena?

GUPTA: You know, he started in his opening statements being very conciliatory toward vaccines. He made this point that he was pro- vaccine, that he had his own kids vaccinated. He wasn't going to take away vaccines from anyone. So, you know, it sounded like he was very much trying to appease the people's concerns about this. But I think where the senators really focused a lot of the attention on all of the things he's said in the past and trying to reconcile that with what he was saying now.

For instance, he said he got his kids vaccinated, but then subsequently said he regretted that decision. So, what kind of signal does that send to people? I think that's where the senators are really going. It's tough. I mean, I listened to the whole thing and I'll be honest and I've been following him for years and years and I still don't know exactly sometimes how he reconciles what he's saying himself at times saying he doesn't believe that vaccines are safe and effective and yet still being pro-vaccine. Like, how do you reconcile these things?

What my takeaway was the senators were trying as best they could to get some more definition around that, but I don't think they really did.

SANCHEZ: Much of it is under the guise of simply asking questions, but ...

GUPTA: Right.

SANCHEZ: ... that often ...

GUPTA: Yes.

SANCHEZ: ... has a real-life impact and it shows when it comes to vaccination rates.

GUPTA: Yes. You know, that's a great point, Boris. I mean, this idea that, hey, we just want radical transparency. We're just asking questions. We just want the science, but I also know from having reported on this for so long, so much of that science has been presented to him and to his organization.

So, they see these same studies that everyone else sees, but there is real impact. So, if you look at vaccination rates specifically, and he basically asked this question, how likely are you as a parent to vaccinate your kid today versus a few years ago? And what you'll find is that, you know, three or four years ago, I think it was close to 90 percent of parents say that they would vaccinate their kids, now it's closer to 82 percent.

To give you a little bit of context, when it comes to something like measles, you need to get around 95 percent of vaccination. Such a contagious disease, you need around 95 percent to start getting herd immunity. We're already seeing measles outbreaks and things like that. Even before the pandemic, we were seeing that. Eighty-two percent, those measles outbreaks are going to grow.

DEAN: Yes. And then there's the piece of autism, which there's no evidence that vaccines and autism are linked, but he's talked a lot about that.

GUPTA: Look, you know, I have three kids. So, I think about this a lot as a doc. I think about this a lot as a parent. In late '90s, the specter of a possible connection between autism and vaccines was raised by what is now a widely debunked paper. Just 12 kids were in that study and it was debunked.

But it got people sort of thinking, well, let's study this. So, over the last, you know, whatever number of years now, there have been a lot of studies. When I say large studies, hundreds of thousands of kids followed for years saying, here are the kids who are vaccinated, here are the kids who are not vaccinated. Was there a difference in autism rates?

Let's control for their age. Let's control for their family history. Do all these things to make sure there is not a link between vaccines and autism, and there simply is not. Part of the problem is we still don't know why autism rates have gone up. They have gone up. We don't know why that is. It could be because parents are older now, having kids than they were in the past. It could be some other environmental exposure. So, we don't know what it is, but we know that vaccines are not causing this.

SANCHEZ: His repeated efforts to get answers and to make America healthy again, I think appeals to a lot of people.

GUPTA: Yes.

SANCHEZ: But obviously the devil's in the details. And some of his opposition to - for example, COVID-19 vaccines has caused a lot of skepticism in that regard. And during the hearing today, Kennedy said that most experts agree that COVID vaccines are inappropriate for six- year-old children who basically have zero risk from COVID. I wonder what you make of that.

GUPTA: Well, I don't know when he says most experts, what that means. I think, you know, if you look at the large medical organizations, the American Academy of Pediatrics, organizations like that, they recommend vaccination for kids as well. I think here's how I would sort of frame it, there's no question that older people had a much higher risk of getting sick and dying from COVID, exponentially higher, hundreds of times higher than kids.

But, you know, I pulled some numbers, you know, just after those hearings. For children between the ages of zero and 17, for example, around 2,000 children died of COVID, 2,000. Now, tens of thousands died in older age groups. But if I just told you that number alone and nothing else, hey, there's a disease that's out there that's circulating. It's going to kill 2,000 kids over the next couple of years. Do you want to do something about it?

SANCHEZ: Right.

GUPTA: I think that is the framing of this, I think, is so important. If you just say, hey, compare it to older adults, age 75 and older, it's vastly different, that is true.

[15:10:03]

It is vastly less risky for kids when you compare it that way. But just as a standalone sort of number, that's, you know, five jumbo jets full of kids dying. And that's why I think vaccines continue to be so important.

DEAN: And the point you made earlier today, too, just that he would be in charge of the largest health organization, essentially, in the world. It is worth remembering.

GUPTA: Yes, the CEO of the of the biggest health enterprise in the world.

DEAN: All right. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, good to see you. Thanks so much.

GUPTA: You got it, thank you.

DEAN: We're going to go now to one of the lawmakers who questioned Robert Kennedy Jr. today, Sen. Tina Smith, a Democrat from Minnesota.

Senator Smith, thank you so much for being here with us.

I know your questions to RFK Jr. focused on his stance on mental illness, on depression, on antidepressant drugs. And you talked about your own personal experience battling depression earlier in your life. Did you find his answers satisfactory?

SEN. TINA SMITH (D-MN): I really didn't. You know, I think that it's so important that Mr. Kennedy is held accountable for his past statements. And in the past, he has said that he believes that antidepressants could be a cause or a cause for school shootings. Now, to Dr. Gupta's point, there is no scientific basis for saying that. Yet his words have consequences. And so today in the committee, I wanted to hold him accountable for the things that he has said.

He's very resistant to that. He does not strike me as an individual who is used to being held accountable. But as we all know, words do have consequences. And I'm thinking of the millions of Americans who struggle with mental illness and depression, who are relying on antidepressants to help them get through the day and help them to function and ultimately to get better, and how they are feeling about being stigmatized and just these lies and misinformation being spread about a challenge that affects so many Americans.

DEAN: And so I would assume based on your answer there, he does not have your vote.

SMITH: No, he does not have my vote. I think you have here a person who tried desperately today to separate himself from the things that he said in the past, especially you think about vaccines. Here's an individual who led the leading anti-vax organization trying to say, no, no, that's not me. I don't mean any of that. And I just don't think that's credible.

But even more, I heard his response to some of my Republican colleagues, particularly Sen. Cassidy, who asked very fair and very detailed questions about Medicare and Medicaid. And Mr. Kennedy appeared to really have barely an elementary grasp of the issues and the challenges around those really important programs that provide health insurance to millions of Americans.

DEAN: And while he doesn't have your support, some Democrats - a lot of Americans, frankly, do support his views when it comes to chronic disease and ultra-processed foods, especially parents feeding kids. Would you agree that those should be a priority for whoever leads this agency?

SMITH: Oh, absolutely. We all understand that we have an epidemic of chronic disease in this country, and particularly just focusing for a moment on diabetes. And we understand that, while there are many causes for that, that you have to look at diet and health and exercise as a contributor to that.

So, this is something that I think that we all can agree on. And it should be an important focus as we think about what we're going to do, not only to have Americans be able to live healthier lives, but also to get a handle on our skyrocketing health care costs, which are driven in large part by the costs of caring for people who suffer from these chronic diseases.

DEAN: I also want to ask you about this federal funding freeze memo that has been rescinded just in the last couple of hours. We heard from the White House Press Secretary, Karoline Leavitt, who says President Trump's executive order on federal funding is still in effect, though, and this is not a rescission of the federal funding freeze. Do you have any clarity at this point about what is frozen and what is not?

SMITH: So I think what happened yesterday with the federal district court basically saying that the - enjoining this freeze by the Trump administration gave some clarity to Minnesota organizations who count on federal grants to provide, you know, domestic violence, shelter and health care to people. They have some clarity that, at least for the time being, things are - they know what's happening. I give huge credit to people all over the country who just were outraged by this.

And I think the backlash had a lot to do with what the Trump administration did today. But right now we have, I think, just a lot of confusion about what it is that they actually intend. And I can speak from experience. I just left a meeting with some Minnesota Head Start folks, and they feel somewhat happy that for the moment they know that they can meet payroll at the end of this week, but they feel no confidence that they're going to be in a good place in even a week or two.

DEAN: And my colleague, Kaitlan Collins, asked your Democratic colleague, Sen. Chris Murphy, if Democrats are responding to Trump in a way that works.

[15:15:03]

And he said yesterday was a wake-up call. There has been some criticism of Democrats that they're not doing enough. Do you think that your party is doing enough?

SMITH: Well, I think yesterday you saw everybody swing into action, and I was really, really grateful for that. At the same time, I mean, let's just be honest. The strategy of the Trump administration is to, you know, flood the world with like any number of things that we can't possibly respond to each and every one of them. It's a strategy, right?

If we spend all of our days running around chasing after every, you know, crazy thing that they do or say, then we're totally off of making any progress on the things that we want to make progress on. So, I actually think you're seeing Democrats coalesce around, look, we want to lower costs, we want to have safer communities, and we're going to hold these guys accountable for the corruption and the self- dealing that they are demonstrating. And we're focused on that, and that means we might not chase after every nutty thing that they throw out there.

DEAN: But in this case, it seems like it was really Americans who were concerned that rang alarm bells here.

SMITH: It was. Yes, it totally was. I mean, I think it was just so shocking to people to wake up yesterday morning and go, wait a minute, like my local child care that I take my child to that has some federal grant money might not be open. Or the - as I - the veterans who rely on somebody to drive them to their doctor's appointment, wait a minute, that federal grant for that drive to the doctor's office might not be there.

It was, I think, just a reminder to people about how this - you know, canceling every single federal grant and discretionary funding has huge ripple effects to the lives of people and actually ends up making them be less safe and less secure.

DEAN: All right. Senator Tina Smith, thanks so much for your time.

SMITH: Thank you very much.

DEAN: Mm-hmm. Still ahead, President Trump signs the first bill of his second term into law, the Laken Riley Act, requiring undocumented immigrants be detained if they're charged with certain crimes. We're going to be joined by the Secretary of Homeland Security, Kristi Noem, who was at that signing, and we'll talk with her about how the Trump administration is tackling immigration.

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SANCHEZ: President Donald Trump getting his first big legislative win, signing the Laken Riley Act into law, named for the 22-year-old Georgia nursing student killed last year by a man in the United States without legal status. Laken Riley's family was there in the crowd, and her mother also got a chance to speak. Obviously, she was emotional, dedicating this moment to her late daughter.

The President also making some news, indicating that he was ordering the federal government to prepare some 30,000 beds in Guantanamo Bay for undocumented migrants. Not many details provided by the White House specifically on that, but this new law requires undocumented migrants accused of certain crimes to be detained and possibly deported even before they ever face trial.

We should note, critics of this law point to a number of different things that they say are problematic. For one, migrants only have to be accused of a crime, not convicted or even sentenced or their cases don't have to be adjudicated before they could be deported. Further, it allows state officials, state's attorneys general or other state officials, to sue the federal government for individual immigration decisions that they view as problematic.

Some folks feel that that is unconstitutional and therefore a serious problem. We should point out that President Trump - I'm sorry, I have to talk to my producer for one second. Michelle, what was that? We're having some technical difficulties, but on the other side of a quick break, we're going to be joined by the Secretary of Homeland Security, Kristi Noem. Stay with CNN. We'll be back in just moments.

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SANCHEZ: Breaking news to CNN. We're joined now by the Secretary of Homeland Security, Kristi Noem, who is live at the White House.

Secretary, thanks so much for joining us.

You were there for the bill signing of the Laken Riley Act, and I want to get into the details with you. But first, I want to ask you about some of the news that President Trump broke at this bill signing. He directed the opening of a detention center at Guantanamo Bay to hold up to some 30,000 migrants. Can you tell us more about those plans, what the options are, who would be detained, and whether military personnel might be involved?

KRISTI NOEM, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Well, President Trump did talk about that a little bit at the ceremony. He just talked about the fact there might be some resources that could be established for the worst of the worst at Guantanamo Bay. And that's something that he is evaluating along with our team at the Department of Homeland Security.

But today was really about Laken, it was really about these families in the United States that have lost their loved ones, many times their children. And it was so special to see President Trump recognize that, talk about their children and tell their stories, and then to see the bipartisan support of this bill being signed into law.

Now, when we have individuals come into this country and break our laws, commit crimes of theft, larceny, assault, murder, rape, they will be detained by the Department of Homeland Security and turned over for prosecution.

And that's a change from the last administration. And I think that everybody there, Republican or Democrat, we're all Americans. And we all recognize that this bill was necessary and it was so special that it is going to help us always remember Laken and those who've been lost because of these tragedies.

SANCHEZ: Yes, listening to her mother speak was especially moving. I do want to ask you, Secretary, what protections does this law have in place to protect folks who may have entered the country illegally, but have since obtained permission to stay temporarily?

NOEM: Well, this bill is all about those who commit crimes, that they will be detained. So, this bill specifically addresses situations where people's lives were lost because criminals, dangerous criminals, were allowed to be released back into the United States to perpetuate more crimes.

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So, it also ...