Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

No Survivors in Midair Collision; President Trump Blames DEI For Midair Collision. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired January 30, 2025 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[13:00:38]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Brianna Keilar with Boris Sanchez in Washington. I am at Reagan National Airport.

We are following the breaking news on the tragic mid-air collision between an American Airlines regional jet and a military Black Hawk helicopter over the Potomac River.

All 64 people on board the passenger jet and the three service members who are on the chopper are believed to be dead. So far, at least 28 bodies have been pulled from the icy waters, and federal investigators are now examining the crash and are expected to hold a news conference here in the next hour, which we will be bringing to you.

CNN has obtained video of the moment that the collision happened. And we want to warn you that it may be difficult to watch. You can actually see the helicopter, which was on a training mission, approaching from the left, and then a big flash of light when the two aircraft collide.

In the last hour, President Trump spoke about the crash from the White House, where, without any evidence, he blamed the policies of former Presidents Biden and Obama and DEI programs for what happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I put safety first. Obama, Biden and the Democrats put policy first, and they put politics at a level that nobody's ever seen, because this was the lowest level.

The initiative is part of the FAA's diversity and inclusion hiring plan, which says diversity is integral to achieving FAA's mission of ensuring safe and efficient travel. I don't think so. I don't think so.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Now, moments later, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth admitted that a mistake was made.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) PETE HEGSETH, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY NOMINEE: Routine annual retraining of night flights on a standard corridor for a continuity of government mission. The military does dangerous things, it does routine things on the regular basis. Tragically, last night, a mistake was made.

And I think the president is right. There was an -- some -- some sort of an elevation issue that we have immediately begun investigating at the DOD and Army level.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Let's get right now to CNN's Jeff Zeleny at the White House.

Just hours since this tragedy happened, Jeff, and we're seeing it be politicized.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: There was no question, Brianna.

I mean, moments after President Trump stood in the Briefing Room and calling this an hour of anguish for the nation, he very quickly switched to blame and blamed the previous administrations of Barack Obama and Joe Biden. Never mind, of course, that he served between those administrations and did not change the policies in which he was railing against on diversity, equity, and inclusion arguments.

Of course, that is one of the themes of his new presidency. He's been trying to remake the federal government. So that, of course, was seeping into much of his news conference earlier today here. So, of course, he did express his sympathy for the families, but then very quickly jumped to speculation, even as he said an investigation is indeed warranted.

So it was a very familiar scene from the president in the White House Briefing Room, taking his back, perhaps, to the time of the pandemic, when information and accurate information was not necessarily the driving force, but speculation was.

But, Brianna, it was quite a moment there, blasting even former Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg, and who responded by saying, now this is on President Trump's watch, it's his military and his FAA.

But the bottom line to all this, taking politics aside, there are real questions about, is the government at full staff? Are there people fully staffed in the FAA and other agencies here? That is a central question that will be going on into this, but certainly more politics than sympathy or empathy here at the White House, Brianna.

KEILAR: Yes, and there needs to be a lot of empathy. There are 67 families and huge circles of friends who are suffering so much today.

[13:05:02]

Jeff Zeleny live for us at the White House, thank you for that report.

Let's go over to the Pentagon, not far from where I am right now, where we find Natasha Bertrand.

And, Natasha, we heard the new Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth saying that they're investigating an elevation issue. I mean, clearly, we know there was an elevation issue, that there were two aircraft at the same elevation at the same time. But I wonder if there are any details that you're learning about what was an Army training flight.

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Exactly, Brianna.

I mean, clearly this shouldn't have happened. The question is, whose fault was it? Was it pilot error? Was it air traffic control error? Was it an error with the helicopter itself, a technical issue? We just don't know.

And what Secretary of Defense Hegseth said is really the extent of what we're being told right now, which is that this was -- quote -- "some sort of an elevation issue" and that Army CID, which is the Criminal Investigative Decision -- Division of the Army, as well as aviation assets from the military, they have been deployed to try to figure out what happened here, in conjunction with the NTSB and the FAA.

Now, in terms of the Black Hawk itself and what it was actually doing at the time of this collision, it was on a routine training mission. And they were doing what is called a required night evaluation. And according to Hegseth and recorded remarks that he made earlier, they did have night-vision goggles at the time.

It was unclear whether or not they were actually wearing them. But that is something that President Trump pointed out during his press conference may have impeded their vision if they were in fact wearing their night-vision goggles. Again, completely unclear at this point whether that actually is what occurred here.

But these were three U.S. Army soldiers that had a fair bit of experience. Again, according to Secretary Hegseth, these were not necessarily junior officers or junior pilots who had never flown this route before. They had a fair amount of experience. There was a captain, a staff sergeant and a crew chief all aboard this helicopter.

And this route, I mean, this, according to former pilots that we have spoken to who are in this exact unit, has been used for decades really for these kinds of flights, not only for training, of course, but also to help carry VIPs, senior U.S. government officials, to and from certain buildings. These Black Hawks, they land and they take off from right here at the Pentagon carrying senior Army officials quite regularly.

So, clearly, something very wrong happened here. And the question is what. And I think what we're seeing now is trying to figure out whether it was ATC, whether it was the pilots and just how this can be prevented in the future.

KEILAR: Yes, certainly. Natasha, thank you for that. I want to discuss more now with Alan Diehl. He is a former NTSB

investigator. He was assigned to the 1982 Air Florida crash that happened here at DCA, as well as several other incidents involving Black Hawk helicopters. He's also written a number of books, including "Air Safety Investigators: Using Science to Save Lives One Crash at a Time."

First off, can you talk to us a little bit about the possibility of the Black Hawk crew maybe wearing night-vision goggles? We don't know that they were, but they may have been. That may have been part of their training mission here. What complications could that have created?

ALAN DIEHL, FORMER NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD INVESTIGATOR: Well, the biggest complications with night-vision goggles, and I have used them in helicopters, they have very limited field of view.

And so it may have been difficult for them to spot the other traffic. But the biggest red flag that I have noticed so far is, there was a third aircraft up there that night. And when you look at that very painful video of the collision, you can see the lights of another aircraft.

And the thing that the NTSB will have to sort out, is it possible that the Black Hawk crew, whether or not they had night-vision goggles on, saw the other target, the other airplane, and thought it was the American jet?

And, of course, they were -- flew -- they were going well behind the other aircraft, but they may not have seen the American jet. It could have been hidden by part of the cockpit structure of the Black Hawk, whether or not they had the goggles on. So that's the kind of thing that the NTSB will have to address.

And they're very, very diligent and very thorough. So those are the kind of questions that I think will be foremost in this investigation.

KEILAR: So, Alan, talk to us a little bit about that, because, as you said, perhaps an obstruction, a part of the Black Hawk helicopter.

If you're thinking about it like driving, is that like having someone in your blind spot?

[13:10:03]

DIEHL: Absolutely.

In cars, they call it the A-pillar. It's the front part of the door. And the Black Hawk has a substantial structure there. They also have a piece of metal that runs down the center of the windshield. And if the American jet was behind that structure, it is possible, particularly if they looked at the wrong target, the other -- the third airplane, I will call it.

It's possible by the time they realize that, oh, my gosh, there's an American jet right in front of us, there's a -- I'm a human factors aviation psychologist. So it takes several seconds for the human to respond. Plus, the helicopter's got to respond. So it may well be that, by the time they saw the American jet, they didn't have time to avoid it.

We talk about see and avoid, which is the standard for these kind of operations. And, of course, the controllers are very busy. The pilots are busy. And normally this doesn't happen, but, this night, things just went bad, very badly. And that's what the Safety Board will have to address.

Now, what they will do is, they will look at the eye position of the two pilots in the Black Hawk to see what structures might have been blocking their view of the American jet.

KEILAR: And, Alan, you're a former investigator.

As we hear this crash already being politicized, I do wonder if that raises questions for you about people searching for answers that -- I don't know, if that could complicate things. Does that complicate things when you have people drawing conclusions prematurely or about things they have no evidence of?

DIEHL: Well, the NTSB has always been one of the most independent organizations in the government.

We will see if that continues with the new administration. But I know, on many occasions when I worked there, we resisted any kind of political pressure to come to certain conclusions. And, many times, you're dealing with other governments.

For example, there was an Egyptian crash where the pilot may have committed suicide, and the Egyptian government didn't want the NTSB to point fingers at their pilots. So -- but they did. The NTSB resisted that pressure and called it the way they see it.

So, many times, the NTSB has stood proudly and tall and called it as they saw it. And that's what Congress intended when they established the NTSB. NTSB used to be part of the Department of Transportation, but, after a famous crash, they said there was too much emphasis.

Richard Nixon was pressuring the NTSB to come to certain conclusions about an aircraft type that was made in his -- California, when he was governor, I guess, or when he was representing California. But, anyway, the bottom line, the NTSB has always resisted political pressure. I expect they will try to do it again this time.

KEILAR: All right, Alan Diehl, you have so much perspective. We do appreciate you sharing it with us. Thank you very much.

DIEHL: Thanks for having me.

KEILAR: And, Boris, back to you.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Still so many questions to be answered. We want to dig in on this more with CNN aviation correspondent Pete

Muntean. Also with us is Michael McCormick, associate professor and program coordinator for air traffic management.

Thank you both for being with us.

Pete, first to you. We're told that both of these aircraft were actually on standard flight patterns. Walk us through what those are and how, if those are standard flight patterns, they could have come to a collision.

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: This is the central question of how this could possibly happen.

And the airspace around National Airport here is so congested already. Runway 1 here runs north-south. That is the single busiest runway in the national airspace system, single busiest runway of any airport in the United States.

American Flight 5342 was approaching here from the south. They were initially cleared to line up with Runway 1. That's called the Mount Vernon visual approach. But the controller and the tower asked them if they could accept a circle to land. That's this procedure to Runway 33, so coming out over Prince George's County, Maryland, on the east side of the Potomac to line up with Runway 33.

You can see the conflict that is building here, the bad recipe in the making. This helicopter from the Army was flying on what is known as Route 4. That is a route that goes down the Potomac River for helicopters flying at low altitude, essentially a special corridor for government and military helicopters.

[13:15:03]

If you have spent any time in Washington, you know that sometimes the helicopter traffic here can sound like a scene out of "Apocalypse Now." It is nearly constant. And so this helicopter was flying down at low altitude. And we heard Secretary Hegseth say earlier that this was an elevation issue.

I think the thing that may be really want to be looked at is if this was mostly a course issue, the fact that this corridor the helicopter was flying on is so close to the flight path, this arcing flight path, for flights that get the clearance to land on Runway 33.

This is a procedure commonly used by controllers in the tower at National Airport to keep up the pace of arrivals. Only smaller airplanes like that regional jet can land on this slightly shorter runway here.

SANCHEZ: It's a smaller runway, yes.

MUNTEAN: So it's just a little bit shorter than Runway 1. That's the main runway. And so they can keep the pace of things up.

Again, busiest runway in the U.S., they sometimes have to use this sort of auxiliary runway to keep things pushing in. And this will really be the focus, I think.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

MUNTEAN: This is the big question now that many people in aviation are asking. Why are these flight paths able to be so close together?

SANCHEZ: And that is part of the difficult choreography that air traffic controllers have to manage.

MUNTEAN: No doubt.

SANCHEZ: Michael, you're obviously an air traffic control professor.

I want to play for you the correspondence between controllers and the flight crews. Let's listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

TOWER: PAT-25, do you have CRJ in sight?

TOWER: PAT-25, pass behind the CRJ.

HELICOPTER PILOT: PAT 2-5 has aircraft in sight. Request visual separation.

TOWER: (INAUDIBLE)

WOMAN: Oh, my.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: And you hear the reaction there from folks inside.

Michael, this request for visual separation at this point is crucial, because I believe that you hear folks on the helicopter essentially affirm that they have visual separation, but, clearly, there was something in the way. So, that was inaccurate, right?

MICHAEL MCCORMICK, EMBRY-RIDDLE AERONAUTICAL UNIVERSITY: So, the situation -- and Pete did a great job with the background information.

The helicopter is flying Route 1 South -- Route 4 South, and that route is designed to fly over Fells Point away from Washington National Airport, so that primary runway, Runway 1, arrivals and departures, remain clear of Route 4.

In this instance, because it was a circle to land, that pushed that aircraft further east and into that offset on Route 4. The air traffic control is responsible for separation of sequencing all aircraft within that class of airspace.

And with helicopters, that separation is ensured by issuing traffic, and then the helicopter has to report the traffic in sight and avoid the traffic, maneuver away from the traffic.

And with a military aircraft such as the H-60, the Black Hawk, they have that capability that they can quickly maneuver away from another aircraft.

So the question that will be remaining is, did the pilot of the Black Hawk, in fact, see the correct aircraft, the American CRJ-7, or were they looking at another aircraft, or did they lose the aircraft in the background?

You will notice in those videos that there's a lot of light close to the ground, and that helps to -- so it's very easy for an aircraft to get lost in the light. And you can also see in that video that the aircraft is lined up with Runway 33. And, as a result, its lights were aimed toward the airport, and not in the direction in which the Black Hawk would readily pick it up.

SANCHEZ: Yes, it is a dense urban area. And, at night, there's a lot of light.

And, if indeed, some of those pilots were wearing night-vision goggles, it could get confusing very quickly, and depth of field also.

But, Pete, I do want to ask you about something that President Trump said during his briefing earlier today. He tied what happened last night to DEI policies. At this point in the investigation, have you heard or seen any evidence from any source that anyone at all involved in what happened last night, whether pilots, air traffic controllers, et cetera, were recruited or hired based on so-called DEI policies?

MUNTEAN: It is way too soon to make any sort of personal indictments in this investigation.

And the National Transportation Safety Board does this as a nameless, faceless, rankless investigation. It is about the actions of the pilots, the actions of the controllers, the actions of the pilots in the helicopter, and all the surrounding factors.

[13:20:00]

So, no, I mean, it's way -- baseless to make any sort of politicization of this issue. I mean, this is something that is really going to take years to get to the bottom of. I don't think the president has information that others have not said, that this is something that was a complete tragedy and a fluke and this flight was seconds away from landing.

And, really, this was a collision that could have been missed if things were different by a few hundred feet. So it is such an awful tragedy and that families are really going through hell right now trying to sort out their lives. Some of them are waiting at the airport for their loved ones.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

MUNTEAN: And that was a really sort of insult-to-injury hellish press conference on top of what they're going through. There is no evidence whatsoever.

SANCHEZ: Pete and Michael, thank you so much for the perspective. We do want to go to some video of Nancy Kerrigan, world famous figure

skater, reacting to this crash. As you may know, there were figure skating teams on board this flight from Wichita that crashed into the Potomac. Let's listen in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY KERRIGAN, 1994 OLYMPIC SILVER MEDALIST: Much like everyone here has been saying is not sure how to process it.

Shoot. I'm sorry, which is why I'm here. Many of you may know my husband's my agent, and he keeps getting calls to do interviews. And I thought that was weird. I didn't feel like it was right to be home and have -- doing interviews for this.

So I called Elin, I'm like, what are you doing? I think we just all need to go together. And she said, let me call my mom. And so we're like, OK, we will meet in an hour. And we just wanted to be here and be part of our community. I have never seen anyone love skating as much as these two. And that's why I think it hurts so much.

And, I mean, everything, Tenley's always here supporting the kids. And any time I have been able to be here and watch them grow, the kids here really work hard. Their parents work hard to be here. But I just -- I feel for the athletes, the skaters, their families, but anyone that was on that plane, not just the skaters, because it's just such a tragic event.

And we have been through tragedies before as Americans, as people, and we are strong. And I guess it's how we respond to it. And so my response is to be with people I care about and I love and need -- I needed support. So that's why I'm here. And I don't know, a little bit at a time.

I think it's a shock. I was watching -- I wasn't woken up in the morning and saw it. I was watching like all night. So I probably looked tired. But -- and then when you find out you know some of the people on the plane, it's even a bigger blow.

And we just wish them well and, like, the families, the courage and the strength to make the next steps. I don't know how. You look at people who go through tragedies and you wonder, how do they do it? I don't know, but we're so strong. Somehow, we have a reservoir to dig from and each one of them are strong enough to get through this somehow.

It will take time, but look beside you. There's somebody that cares. And, I don't know, tell people around you that you love them, because you just never know. Don't forget to say it.

QUESTION: Could you reflect on Vadim and Evgenia, what kind of coaches they were and did you work with them?

KERRIGAN: I never worked with them. I mean, we were at the Olympics together, but, in '94, I was kind of busy myself and sort of separated from a lot of what was going on. But, I mean, I have seen them a lot of times here and there over the

years. But everything you have heard of them, like, maybe being a little tough, but with a smile on their face. And like, all -- any time I walked in, oh, hi, it's so good to see you. It's like always welcoming and happy to see one another.

And just to think -- to walk in here and not see that is -- I think would be very strange for everybody that comes here, especially those that are here day in and day out. And it's going to be hard. And I always feel like, what am I doing? I don't come to the skating club all the time, but it was the only place I thought I should be right now.

I did not expect this. (INAUDIBLE) I'm not sure. But we just wanted to be here with each other. And, for Doug -- we watched Doug's interview. And...

[13:25:05]

TENLEY ALBRIGHT, WORLD CHAMPION FIGURE SKATER: That helped us.

KERRIGAN: It did help. Thank you. Yes, it's...

ALBRIGHT: There are so many memories.

And just having seen the skaters competing and knowing that Max is now he made -- he did so well in the world in the nationals. He's made the world team as an alternate. And then Spencer, who was in your ice show, could you could you tell me what you -- tell us what you told me about...

(CROSSTALK)

KERRIGAN: You had a great story.

ELIN SCHRAN, FOUNDER, JOY SKATE PRODUCTIONS: My company does free outdoor shows around the city. Nancy's hosted and started many of them.

And Spencer was in his first show with our company this past December in Kendall Square in Cambridge. And he'd never done a professional show before. It was a new experience for him. He was nervous.

And then, after the show ended, he came over, and he was beaming. This kid was so talented. He only started skating a few years ago, and he had all of his triples, and not just that, but this natural, natural grace and beauty and understanding of ice and speed. And his positions were just so gorgeous.

And he came to me and smiling ear to ear saying: "I get it now. I understand."

He started to discover this connection with the audience and that joy that he was giving to other people through his gift. And he said: "Please let me skate again with you next year." I had already reached out to people like Doug Webster, who is the artistic director of Ice Dance International, and said, you have got to keep your eye on this kid. You're going to want him for your company. He was just brilliant and so kind.

And he was great backstage. That matters to me even more than the onstage talent of these kids. And I...

ALBRIGHT: Then we watched him here.

SCHRAN: Yes. I don't understand. I don't understand this. Just really praying for his family.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For all of them.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

SCHRAN: Yes, I do.

DOUG ZEGHIBE, CEO, SKATING CLUB OF BOSTON: Definitely.

SCHRAN: I have never seen somebody come to it so fast.

ZEGHIBE: And so naturally.

ALBRIGHT: So naturally.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

ZEGHIBE: It was three years ago (INAUDIBLE) Three years ago.

SCHRAN: That's unheard of.

ZEGHIBE: I mean, these kids can make it look really easy when they're doing triple-triple jumps and all of their triples. It's actually not very easy. You don't just need talent. You need to have a lot of hard work to get there.

KERRIGAN: Grit.

ZEGHIBE: And for him -- and grit, thank you, and resilience.

And for him to get there in three years, that's why I refer to him as a phenom.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

ZEGHIBE: Oh, yes. Oh, she was in it to win it. And she was in it to win it, and like in a Tenley way, full of grace, a serious competitor, but so nice about it and so supportive of her fellow competitors, just a delight, but for a little 13-year-old just full of grace.

And I want to say one other thing about Vadim and Evgenia, because I refer to them as being strict. And I think what I really mean to say, they had high standards, because they were incredibly kind. They were so kind, but they had high standards. And the combination really worked with their kids because they felt the support, but they also knew where the bar was.

And I have to say for me as CEO here I could not walk into this arena, see them for the first time that day and for them not to come over shake my hand and thank me for the opportunity to be here, which you don't always see. Just very grateful and generous with their feedback.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: We have been listening to officials and friends of the Boston Skate Club, including former Olympic figure skater Nancy Kerrigan, remarking on the loss of several of its coaches and members, including Vadim Naumov and Evgenia Shishkova, who also competed in the 1994 Winter Olympics.

We have also learned that Spencer Lane, who only took up figure skating three years ago, and 13-year-old Jinna Han were on board the flight that crashed over D.C. last night, alongside their parents, Jin Han and Christine Lane.

Incredibly sad news, as we are learning more about some of the victims that were on that flight.

We are anticipating a press briefing from the NTSB in the next hour or so. Plenty more news to come on this and other things also on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.