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Investigation Continues into Cause of Passenger Plane and Army Helicopter Collision over Potomac River; National Transportation Safety Board Member Interviewed on Process of Investigating Midair Collision; Some Victims of Midair Collision Near Washington D.C. Profiled. Remembering the 67 People Killed in DC Plane-Helicopter Collision; Multiple Investigations into what Caused Collision that Killed 67; Aired: 8-8:30a ET

Aired January 31, 2025 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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DR. PAUL OFFIT, DIRECTOR, VACCINE EDUCATION CENTER, CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL OF PHILADELPHIA: -- hepatitis b vaccine. We basically eliminated the 18,000 cases of hepatitis b that would occur every year in children less than 10. He's a science denialist. This is not a man you want in a position supervising science agencies like FDA, CDC and NIH.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Dr. Offit, if he gets confirmed, what's your advice to parents, families, and everyone?

OFFIT: Buckle up, because what's going to happen is I think vaccines are going to become more expensive and less available. And I think that our children will suffer. I think what we are about to enter is measles land, and you're already starting to see evidence of it. We went from 50 cases in 2023 to roughly 200 in 2024. There was just an outbreak yesterday in Lubbock, Texas. And that is the most contagious of the vaccine preventable diseases. It's the canary in the coalmine when immunization rates fray. And that's what's about to happen.

And I lived through the 1991 Philadelphia measles epidemic, when over a three month period, we had 1,400 cases of measles and nine deaths in our city, one city. I mean, Philadelphia, became a feared destination. Schools canceled trips to the city. And I just fear we're heading in that direction.

BOLDUAN: Dr. Paul Offit, thank you.

A new hour of CNN NEWS CENTRAL starts now.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: The investigation intensifying into why the passenger plane and Army helicopter collided over the Potomac River. Videos obtained by CNN offering new views of the tragedy, and experts now saying the Black Hawk may have deviated from its approved flight path.

Friends on a hunting trip, young figure skaters, a woman who just spent her birthday with her family -- we're learning more about the 67 people tragically killed in that collision and hearing from their loved ones.

I'm Sara Sidner with Kate Bolduan and John Berman. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, happening now, you can see these pictures, live pictures of the recovery efforts happening in the Potomac River right now, that boat right next to what appears to be a piece of the plane's fuselage. As that's happening, there is new reporting on the investigation, potentially key data points from "The New York Times." Sources tell "The Times," the helicopter, the Black Hawk, flew outside its approved flight path and was higher than it was supposed to be. "The Times" also reports the airline pilots most likely did not see the helicopter as they made a turn.

Now, CNN has obtained new videos of the crash. In them, the helicopter approaches the jet from the left. You can see it right there highlighted. It appears to be on a steady path before impact. Some key questions there. Given that steady path, given that the plane appeared to be in front of it, did those helicopter pilots see the plane? Did they realize what it was? Why not? Why did they not alter their path?

Let's get right to CNN's Rene Marsh for the latest on the investigation this morning. You were at Reagan national airport, Rene. What is the latest?

RENE MARSH, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The latest, John, is that now that the sun is up, that recovery mission is underway, looking for four more bodies. We know that four of the, excuse me -- 14 more bodies. We know that four are still pinned inside of the plane. And the two soldiers on board that Black Hawk helicopter have yet to be recovered. We also expect the flight manifest from the passenger plane to be released today, revealing the names of the victims on that commercial flight. And President Donald Trump saying that he will meet with some of the victims' families. But it's unclear when that will happen.

Now, as for the investigation, that is ramping up and well underway. We will say that we know that the black boxes have been recovered for both aircraft, and the process of beginning to read those black boxes is now underway. And we know that investigators feel good about the potential of getting critical data off of those black boxes. And we're expecting a preliminary report at least within the next 30 days.

They're also waiting for a crane to come in which will assist in helping to remove some of the debris from both aircraft from the Potomac River, that those pieces of the plane are going to be crucial in piecing together exactly what happened after the moment of impact midair.

They are also going to be talking to this air traffic controller at some point, because that is going to be a crucial piece of this investigation, doing interviews with the air traffic controllers who were in the tower at that time, we know that hasn't officially happened at this point. But CNN has learned that one air traffic controller was working two different positions in the tower, controlling both local traffic as well as helicopter traffic, according to a source.

[08:05:06]

But that source points out that that is not unusual for air traffic controllers. But this is something that investigators will want to know. They're going to want to know the workload of that day, what this air traffic controller schedule was the night before, or the last 72 hours, because this will help them to piece together all aspects of this incident, what happened. They're looking at the people involved. They're looking at the systems. They're looking at the aircraft and the decisions that the pilots made. Again, all of that will also be on those data recorders. John?

BERMAN: There is so much to do, the investigation already, obviously, underway. Rene Marsh at Reagan National Airport, thank you very much. Kate?

BOLDUAN: And that investigation continues this morning, as Rene is talking about. This morning, NTSB investigators and divers are back on the scene searching for aircraft components, searching for evidence, salvaging what they can.

Last night, Brad Bowman, former Black Hawk pilot and member of the 12th Aviation Battalion, spoke to our Pete Muntean about the helicopter routes in the area.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRAD BOWMAN, SENIOR DIRECTOR, CENTER ON MILITARY AND POLITICAL POWER: I've flown this route too many times to count. Before you proceed south along the river, you call Reagan tower at Key Bridge, and you say, you say you're at Key Bridge. You don't proceed without their permission. You stair step down your altitude and you're at 200 feet, and you keep that 200 feet, plus or minus 10, 20 feet. And so as this investigation proceeds, I'm going to really want to see what altitude was that Black Hawk at. And if it was well above 200 feet, that might have been a decisive explanation here for what happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: But that investigation just getting underway.

Joining us right now is Todd Inman. He's a member of the National Transportation Safety Board, lead spokesman on this investigation. This, of course, is the agency that is leading the investigation into this tragedy. Todd, thank you very much for being here. With all of the understanding that you all are just really one full day into this investigation, beginning your second day, are there any initial findings, readings, any aspect of this that you can share?

TODD INMAN, MEMBER, NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD: Well, I know something that developed last night that will be of great interest is the recovery of what they call the black boxes. These are actually orange boxes, but it was recovered from the CRJ. This is the PSA flight. So we've recovered both of those boxes, one which has the data recordings and one which has the voice recordings. Those are at our lab right now. They have been opened and we're starting the initial process in order to validate the information and download it.

BOLDUAN: Does the Black Hawk, do you know, have anything similar? And what are you hoping to glean from the so-called black boxes?

INMAN: We've been told that the Black Hawk will have a data or, excuse me, a recorder on it. We don't know if it's a combined voice and data or specifically which, because that's a military craft. But we are told that there is one on board. We have not retrieved it yet, but we feel comfortable with knowing where it's at. These will help paint -- all this information are a lot of different data points that paint a bigger picture and give us more granular information so that we ultimately come up with what we believe is the probable cause.

But the most important thing out of all this investigation is we learn what happened and then make recommendations so that it doesn't happen again.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Todd, CNN obtained two videos overnight, and one thing that they appear to show is other aircraft lights nearby that some experts that we have spoken to think that the helicopter pilots may have mistaken those lights for the American Airlines jet, as if they had the wrong plane in their sights. How seriously is the NTSB taking that as a possibility?

INMAN: We take everything serious, every potential scenario. So it's helpful as we see all these different new pieces of evidence, whether it be eyewitness or video in this case, those things help give us a lot more details. Right now, it's too early to speculate on what exactly occurred, but you've got a lot of different moving parts. So we're in the early stages. We hope to have the preliminary report out in 30 days. The overall investigation will probably take a year, but that's because it has to be accurate.

We have some of the best people in the world doing this. We've done over 100,000 aviation investigations. We're not going to put something out quick just so we can end some speculation.

BOLDUAN: And everyone appreciates that. We did hear from the secretary of transportation yesterday saying that, bottom line, those two aircraft should not have been that close at the same altitude and on converging paths, that someone had to have made a mistake for that to happen. Is that accurate?

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INMAN: Well, obviously something bad happened. We have 67 people that have lost their lives. But to say it's on one specific aspect would be not understanding the system that's been put in place. We call it kind of a Swiss cheese approach. There's multiple different layers where if something goes through, one small area, somewhere else could catch it.

What's happened here is we've most likely had a multitude of different issues, whether it be from understanding where a plane is, what an altitude is, what the speed is, every one of those will be contributing factors to what is ultimately a horrible tragedy. BOLDUAN: One thing that everyone appreciates is the independence of

the NTSB that we have known for, you know, for so many years and need it in order to get to the bottom and the answers of what caused a tragedy and how to make it not happen again.

We just had Senator Chris Murphy on. He was just speaking with my colleague John Berman. And the senator raised a concern about the investigation going forward. Let me play this for you.

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SEN. CHRIS MURPHY, (D-CT): All of our agencies, and the organizations like the NTSB that sit underneath them, are really in jeopardy of becoming political tools of the president instead of independent arbiters of safety in this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Can you respond to that concern, Todd? Can you assure the investigation will be protected from any outside influence, no matter how high up in the government it comes from?

INMAN: Yes, absolutely. The NTSB was founded on being a bipartisan board with different individuals. We have a lot of different people from different aspects and walks of life. So the board makes sure that we maintain that. That's the one reason why we are the gold standard across the country. There's a lot of people that have speculation and want to be heard in that regard. We understand that. But our job is to find ultimately what caused this and prevent it in the future.

We've made 15,000 recommendations across all forms of transportation. We have an 84 percent success rate of getting those adopted. The reason why we've been able to go 24 years without a major crash like this is because we take our work seriously.

BOLDUAN: And that is why it is so serious this time with this horrible tragedy before us. Todd, thank you so much for coming in. Thank you for your work. We look forward to tracking it all along the way as the NTSB continues its investigation.

We also did just learn we want to bring to you that there's currently a ground stop in place at Reagan National Airport due to airport volume. We're going to continue to monitor that throughout the morning. Sara?

SIDNER: And Kate, you know that there are two senators, I think, Tim Kaine and Chris Murphy, that we talked to yesterday, were concerned about the amount of traffic that goes in and out of DCA as they are trying to expand the number of long flowing flights from that airport. I know we talked about this yesterday, so that is one of those concerns being addressed right now in real time. Thank you for that, Kate.

This morning we're learning more about some of the 67 people killed in the collision. Kia Duggins was a Harvard educated civil rights attorney, and in just a few months she was supposed to start a new chapter in her life as a law professor at Howard University. Another victim, American Airlines Captain Jonathan Campos, who loved flying and had years of experience. But above all, he adored his family. They are just two of the many lives lost in total, 67.

CNN's Eva McKend is in Washington with more on what we are learning about the victims, and we're seeing some of their pictures up now. We know that not all of the victims have even been recovered from the crash site.

EVA MCKEND, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER: That's right, Sara. There are so many victims. But let's this hour lift up the name of a few. At just 26 years old, Azra Hussain Raza was the daughter of immigrants and graduated with honors in 2020 from Indiana University. She married her college sweetheart in August 2023. Her husband was waiting for her at the airport and texted her minutes before the plane went down. She was a D.C. based consultant who traveled to Wichita for work. And her family says that she went out of her way for everybody. That's the type of person she was.

Ryan O'Hara, he was crew chief on board of that Black Hawk. He trained to maintain them. He leaves behind a wife and a one-year-old son. Fellow service members say he was one of the finest, most disciplined, committed trainers.

And Elizabeth Anne Keys, she was just 33, Cincinnati native and lawyer. She was her high school valedictorian and went on to graduate from Tufts University in the Boston area. Her law firm says she brought fearlessness, humor and sharp wit to work every day, no matter the setting or the circumstances. And her high school principal is remembering her as well. Let's listen.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAY SPICHER, FORMER HIGH SCHOOL PRINCIPAL FOR VICTIM ELIZABETH ANNE KEYS: She was just such an outstanding student. Outstanding young lady. You know, just the kind of person that we need many, many more of.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

EVA MCKEND, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: And Sara, we are repeating again and again that number 67. But when you hear these stories, it really puts into context who we lost on that plane, on those planes. So many lives with so many stories and so many families reeling today -- Sara.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, six of them from the skating community and we're looking at some of their pictures as well. It truly is heartbreaking seeing all of this loss.

Eva McKend thank you so much for reminding us the most important thing, which is these families are suffering after this tragedy.

Over to you -- John. JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, this morning is Tulsi Gabbard's nomination in trouble? What some Republicans heard in the hearings that could sway their votes.

And the race to rescue an elderly woman swallowed up by a huge sinkhole.

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BERMAN: All right, CNN has obtained this new video of the moment of the crash over the Potomac.

You can see on the left there the Black Hawk helicopter. You can see the moment of impact. We know this is difficult to look at, but it is instructive as to what happened there, 67 people lost their lives.

With us now, Les Abend, a former commercial aircraft captain, and Elizabeth McCormick, former Black Hawk helicopter pilot. Thank you both so much for being here.

Elizabeth, we just got a chance to look at that video once again. And the Black Hawk came in on what appeared to be a steady path there. What does a helicopter pilot see at that moment?

ELIZABETH MCCORMICK, FORMER BLACKHAWK HELICOPTER PILOT: The visibility in the Black Hawk is pretty, pretty significant. The wind screens are quite large. Windows on the door on the side. Chin bubble window down low. So, they have pretty good visibility.

BERMAN: In something like the CRJ-700, the Bombardier flight that that was in the sky. What would that look like to a Black Hawk pilot?

MCCORMICK: Well, they -- you know, they've got their lighting but it also is kind of cluttered in general with the ground lighting, the reflections of the ground light against the river.

There's -- it's a lot of lighting in that area near the airport that could have obstructed seeing the airliner. And that, there was also another airliner taking off, off the other runway that I believe that when air traffic control asked if they had visual, that's the one they had visual on.

BERMAN: So again, it is confusing as to what exactly they saw and when or thought they saw and when.

Les to you? You've flown in to Reagan so many times on different approaches. Again, we put that video up before. We don't need to see it again. It is hard to watch, but what do the airline pilots see? What is it that they're concentrating on?

LES ABEND, FORMER COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT CAPTAIN: Well, it's a very challenging airport, as has been said, you know, in previous segments. But, you're focused on getting the airplane on the ground to that particular runway. And in this case, my understanding is that they were given clearance to Runway 1, which is more of a northerly heading. And then the controllers asked them if they could accommodate a runway change to 3- 3, which was a more northwest heading, which would have required them to move out over the Potomac, potentially in order to line up with that northwest Runway 3-3.

So, it could have drifted them a little bit further into the path of that Black Hawk. If there was some altitude discrepancy that the Black Hawk wasn't holding, it's hard to say. That's pure speculation.

But, you know, when you're looking for a helicopter, I'm surprised to justify that video how well illuminated it is. It is normally very hard. It gets camouflaged. It melts into the ground clutter of lights.

BERMAN: Elizabeth, we are learning from "The New York Times" that it does appear that the helicopter was not at the altitude it was supposed to be at when flying over the Potomac. right there, well, it's not supposed to go higher, really, than 200 feet, but there may be some signs that it was higher. It was higher than that.

How does a pilot keep track of that? Is that something -- can your elevation change by a significant amount without being aware?

MCCORMICK: Not that much, the altimeter is quite large. It's one of the primary instruments straight in front of the pilot. So, you know, it's possible flying under night vision goggles, you can kind of tunnel vision if they had the goggles in at that point, we don't know that.

You know, it's possible with all the reflections of the lights over the water being over the water that they crept up, but really not knowing what altitude you're at, not being at the correct altitude is either a pilot or mechanical error.

BERMAN: And, Les, I've had a chance to talk to you over the years during so many investigations. Yesterday was just the beginning of this investigation. The NTSB really just getting to the scene.

While that was happening, the president of the United States came out with his opinion as to what he thought may have helped contribute or cause this crash, diversity efforts inside the FAA. I just wonder what you thought of the sequencing there. His opinion at the very outset of the investigation.

ABEND: There's only one government agency that should be responsible for any sort of information about what occurred here and it's pure speculation beyond that and that's the NTSB. This is not a blame game. This is find out what the heck happened and let's not let it happen again. That's on the NTSB's wall.

[08:25:14]

There is no reason for anyone, especially someone without expertise to be commenting on something after you're talking 67 families are now mourning this terrible tragedy. There's no purpose in it. We need to get to the bottom of -- and remember, John, as you aptly mentioned, we have discussed this before, and the important part of this is, we all know that there's contributing factors to all of this. There's not just one cause for any accident that we've had experienced in reporting about.

BERMAN: And as you say, the important thing is to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Les Abend and Elizabeth McCormick, thank you both so much for your help this morning -- Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: So three more Israeli hostages are expected to be released from Gaza tomorrow. Among them an American citizen who has been held by Hamas now for more than 480 days.

And, a hidden masterpiece found in the most unexpected of places, purchased for $50.00 at a garage sale and now may be valued at $15 million.

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