Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Trump Doesn't Rule Out Deploying Troops To Take Over Gaza; Trump's Gaza Takeover Proposal Causes Worldwide Disbelief, Outrage; Hamas Calls Trump's Gaza Plan A Receipt For "Chaos And Tension". Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired February 05, 2025 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Owning Gaza. President Trump says he wants to remake the Palestinian territory into the Riviera of the Middle East. World leaders are now panning the proposal and one Palestinian leader is calling it a violation of international law.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Take it or leave it. The CIA is offering buyouts to its entire workforce. The agency's new Trump appointed leader says the change will infuse new energy into the agency. But experts are worried this could have dire consequences for national security.

And lessons learned. What Elon Musk's handling of Twitter after he bought it in 2022 can tell us about his plans for the American government in 2025. We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN News Central.

SANCHEZ: Right now, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is in Washington as the world is processing a stunning propos Trump that would upend decades of U.S. policy in the Middle East. The President is calling for U.S. ownership of Gaza and relocating the two million Palestinians who live there to other countries.

Trump adds that will then give the U.S. an opportunity to develop the area into a worldwide destination. He also says he's not ruling out military force to make this happen, something the White House tried to explain just moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAN #1: Why not rule out the idea of committing U.S. troops? This has been a longstanding argument that the President has made really over the last decade or so, talking about endless wars and not something the U.S. wants. Why not rule out troops?

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Because I think the President is very good when he's making deals and negotiating not to rule out anything because he wants to preserve that leverage in negotiations. And so I think that's what he's doing here.

(END VIDEO CLIP) SANCHEZ: Israel's far right lawmakers are hailing Trump's plan. The Palestinian Authority says the move would be a recipe for chaos. Meantime, here in Washington, Democrats on Capitol Hill are slamming the President's idea, while some Republicans don't seem willing to jump on board so quickly. CNN's Nic Robertson is live with us now for more reaction in London. Nick, what can you tell us?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yeah, just last week, Boris, when this was beginning to become an idea that President Trump supported the ideas of pushing out Gazans from Gaza. I spoke a regional diplomat who said to me, just look at the people in Gaza, the Gazans, they're going back to their powers of rubble. So you know what, we did that today. We sent our cameraman down there to go and talk to them. And they were adamant, they don't want to leave. Here's what they said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RIZIQ ABU SITTA, DISPLACED PALESTINIAN: All of our children's homes have been demolished and our house is half destroyed. Rain comes into the house, cold is coming in and we will still stay whatever happens. Even if we stay in the tent, even if they give us castles and villas, we are not leaving our lands.

SAMI RAMADAN, DISPLACED PALESTINIAN: I want to die in my land. To stay in it. I was born in Gaza, lived in Gaza, studied in Gaza. I got married here and had my children. Whatever happens, I will never leave it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTSON: And it's not just the people of Gaza who are saying this. We've heard today from the King of Jordan. Jordan's one of the countries that President Trump suggested these Gazans could go to. And he has said we reject the idea of displacement.

We've heard that from the French today, French officials, Keir Starmer, the British Prime Minister in parliament today answering questions -- got questions about this because it's such a sensitive topic. And he said, look, absolutely, Gazans have a right to go home. They have a right to rebuild their homes. And he said we should be supporting them in that. That is pretty straight up rejection.

And I think what is interesting first out the gate to respond last night with the Saudis who very quickly said we only support a two state solution with the Palestinians. They're not taking on Trump on the issue of pushing out Gazans. But it's clear, it's obvious and I've heard this behind the scenes from diplomats that if you talk about pushing out the Gazans from Gaza, you end the possibility of a two state solution. So the message very clear from the region, Boris, don't do it. It's a bad idea. That's the message.

SANCHEZ: Nic Robertson, thanks so much. Let's expand the conversation now with CNN Military Analyst and Retired Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton and CNN Global Affairs Analyst Kim Dozier. Thank you both. Always great to see you. Kim, aside from being highly unlikely as a resolution for Gaza, these kind of comments also serve as a recruiting tool for jihadi groups.

KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Absolutely. I mean, this is the third rail in Middle East politics. You do not fulfill the worst fears of everyone in the Middle East that the U.S. would be on Israel's side in all things by saying something like this. And this will be a recruiting poster for al-Qaeda, for ISIS, most of all for Hamas.

The moment anyone tries to move the Palestinians out of Gaza, you've got something like two million Gazans there. More than half of them do not support Hamas right now. But the moment you tell them that you've got to leave because of a U.S. plan backed by Israel, every single one will join Hamas and fight.

KEILAR: So this just isn't going to happen, this thing that Trump is talking about, right? I mean, but it forces everyone to react to it. They have to work through the details of it. Why this detail, that thing isn't going to work. Talk a little bit about that, Cedric, and sort of the oxygen that that swallows up when this whole thing kind of seems like a futile exercise.

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yeah, this is really interesting just from a psychological standpoint, Brianna, because what you're looking at here is a, you know, as you mentioned, Kim, this is the third rail of Middle Eastern politics. And what that really means is if you start talking about this of thing, then you're not talking about implementing phase two of the cease fire.

You're not talking about what comes next. You're not talking about good governance for Gaza or protecting the Palestinians who live there or frankly, the Israelis on the other side of the border --

KEILAR: Or what you do about Hamas.

LEIGHTON: What do you do about Hamas? Because Hamas all of a sudden ceases to exist in this kind of fantasy world that we're living in right now. And if Hamas doesn't exist in the fantasy world, but it exists in reality, then you're going to have a problem. Because if you go in there for a military standpoint or a diplomatic standpoint or even a humanitarian standpoint, and you don't realize what the threats actually are, you are going into a very dangerous situation that is going to put people not only at risk, but it will kill people.

SANCHEZ: It's almost as if we didn't live through Iraq, right?

LEIGHTON: Exactly.

SANCHEZ: I do wonder, Colonel, the White House keeps talking about bringing in regional partners. What regional partner would support this?

LEIGHTON: Well, you know, I think certainly Jordan and Egypt are off the table when it comes to this.

SANCHEZ: Right. LEIGHTON: They're not going to be accepting anybody from Gaza. At least that's what they tell us now. And they've told us that for decades. Then you look at Gulf State partners, potentially one clue might be the Qataris. You know, based on the nuanced expressions from the foreign minister.

However, however, they have not done this up until this point. Nobody has mustered in all Arab force of peacekeepers. Nobody has come in and said, okay, we're going to take over. We're going to use troops, let's say from the African Union or we're going to use troops from the Arab League. None of that has happened.

And the UN is not willing to do any of this kind of these kinds of maneuvers. There's no peacekeeping force like we have in Lebanon or had, at least on the Golan Heights. So this is the kind of thing that we're getting into there. It's basically unchartered territory from a diplomatic standpoint. And it's an area where you really can't move forward because there are no structures in place to make it real.

DOZIER: And just to jump in on that. One of the things the Qatari foreign minister was saying, interesting take. He was emphasizing in public comments today, yes, we Gulf nations need to work together to rebuild Gaza. But right now, we're concentrating on phase two of the negotiations. As if to say, don't look at all this craziness over here. We're staying focused on the one thing that will drive us forward.

Good attempt. The problem is now that President Trump has said that out loud and his White House Press Secretary has doubled down on it, the main message it sends is that this administration will not support a two state solution. Most importantly, that it won't force Israel to make painful territorial sacrifices that would be needed to make two separate states possible.

KEILAR: So that sort of jumps off of Nic Robertson's point. Tell me you don't support the two state solution without telling me you don't support the two state solution. Not going to come out and just say that, right?

DOZIER: Yeah.

KEILAR: So what is the -- we see what the effect this has on that conversation. Where do you go from there?

DOZIER: Well, one of the things is this does jolt all the operators in the region that look, this White House doesn't see anyone to talk to on the Palestinian side. So you all have to work together to step in and present a credible option behind closed doors to President Trump. You also have to rush in, the diplomats I've been speaking to, Arab diplomats, former regional diplomats, are like, we got to get to him behind closed doors and make our case to him because the Israelis already beat us to it.

KEILAR: Can I ask you, because it is hard to see who on the Palestinian side would be the one leading the charge in some kind of conversations. So then why is it still important to acknowledge a path forward even in the absence of making any real progress or being able to at this point in time right now?

DOZIER: Well, one of the main things that Trump wants is expansion of Abraham Accords. And the only way to do that is to get Saudi Arabia to sign on. And Saudi Arabia has said again in the past 24 hours it is not possible without a two state solution. So they are holding firm to that. And we're frozen until they move forward.

LEIGHTON: Yeah, that's going to complicate everything because the Saudis are key to this. And if they don't move forward with this idea, with this -- if they stick with the two state solution idea, which they will, that is going to make this basically untenable.

KEILAR: Kim, Cedric, thank you so much to both of you. Appreciate it.

And still to come. More than two million federal workers now have just one more day to decide. Are they going to take a buyout offer and leave their jobs? Are they going to risk getting fired anyway even if they don't? As the White House plans sweeping layoffs.

SANCHEZ: Plus, first buddy Elon Musk playing a big role in efforts to shrink the federal government. And he appears to be using the same playbook from when he bought Twitter.

And what we know about Trump's new executive order keeping transgender women from competing in women's sports. These stories and much more on the way on CNN News Central.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: The clock is now ticking for 2 million of the nation's federal workers to decide whether to take the Trump administration's so called buyout offer. The deadline to decide is tomorrow. And CNN has learned that the White House is now threatening widespread layoffs soon after that deadline.

CNN's Jeff Zeleny joins us now live from the White House. Jeff, what are you hearing as this deadline comes closer?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: More certainly, one of the central questions being asked among federal workers here in Washington, but also in all corners of the country where they work is are they going to accept the layoff offer, the buyout offer that would technically pay them until September? They have to make a decision by tomorrow.

Now, this is all part of a very accelerated process of trying to reshape the workforce. But right now, there's about 24 hours left in that. And a few details of this, we can put on screen here and show you. Federal workers have until tomorrow to make that decision.

There has been some questions if this is actually a legal deal. Most workers are being advised that yes, it is. Any government employee can accept. This is viewed as an off ramp, if you will, for federal workers who do not want to come back to the office full time. It varies agency by agency by agency. But underscoring all of this, Boris, is just this idea again of some agencies being dismantled, the funding for others being squeezed. It's a moment for the federal workforce here that could change dramatically in the Trump administration. And that is indeed by design.

Then after this, those layoffs might come after that.

SANCHEZ: Yeah. And Jeff, President Trump and Elon Musk have continued to make moves to dismantle USAID. How are those steps fitting with Trump's view of Middle East policy?

ZELENY: Boris, that's one of the interesting conundrums here, or contradictions, if you will, because even as the President is talking about sort of reshaping the Gaza Strip, he said the U.S. will own it, it will take several years, of course, if that were ever to happen, likely it is not. However, what agency would do some relief? What agency would do the aid?

So the whole idea of why foreign aid is necessary is being underscored by the President's plan yesterday, which of course is controversial, even as the USAID and other foreign aid programs are being dismantled here. So it just shows that every one of these decisions. It sounds popular and easy to shrink government. The question is how and where does that leave the government in terms of readiness and other things? So there are some very deep questions here underlying all of these early moves here by the Trump administration.

SANCHEZ: Jeff Zeleny, live for us at the White House. Thanks so much, Jeff. Brianna.

KEILAR: We've also learned that the CIA is now the first U.S. intel agency to offer buyouts to all of its employees and as new Director John Ratcliffe tries to shift the agency's culture to align with the Trump agenda. A CIA spokesperson said, the move was part of the director's efforts to, quote, "ensure the CIA workforce is responsive to the administration's national security priorities," and said the changes are part of a holistic strategy to infuse the agency with renewed energy.

Let's discuss this with Republican Congressman Pat Fallon of Texas. He is on the House Intel and also the House Armed Services Committees.

I'm sure, as I mentioned, you're on the Intel Committee. You see this buyout offer at the CIA. Do you worry about a brain drain at a key agency like that that, you know, could lead to the next 9/11?

REP. PAT FALLON (R-TX): Well, actually, Brianna, I'll tell you, the really high-quality agents that we have within the CIA, probably going to stay because they're very good at their jobs and people that are very good at their jobs tend to like their jobs, and they want to continue contributing to the country.

[14:20:10]

I talked to John Rackliff, he was actually my predecessor in Congress when he was the National Director for Intelligence. And he was saying that unfortunately, a lot of folks at headquarters in his agency really weren't, you know, carrying their water. And so taking some of those folks and welcoming them back to the private sector would be a good thing.

KEILAR: What do you mean not carrying their water? What were they doing?

FALLON: They weren't doing their jobs. They were very inefficient. And there are clearly -- listen, some people, if you think that the federal -- the 1.7 million folks that work for the federal government that are not military are operating at maximum efficiency, that's one thing. But then I can sell you a bridge in Brooklyn or we can ride to work on a unicorn. I just don't think that's the case.

I mean, most private companies don't operate at maximum efficiency. And that's what DOGE is all about, is simply getting a dollar and getting that with the bang for the buck that we can for the American taxpayer. So we all benefit. This shouldn't be a Republican or Democratic thing, this isn't partisan. This is just about the government working at best and saving American taxpayers money.

KEILAR: Trump is gutting USAID. He has said that it is run by radical lunatics. It also, though, provides carrots to other countries that are actually mutually beneficial to the United States. And without them, China will step in and fill that void. Do you think that's smart?

FALLON: Well, let me, let me tell you, Brianna, when -- under the Biden administration in 2023, when USAID did their own report and said and found that only one out of every $10 that is spent is reaching people in need abroad. That's only 10 percent. So that's not maximum efficiency. And we can do far better.

Of course, I strongly believe, and I believe also this administration acknowledges that working with foreign nations and providing aid -- the proper types of aid to the proper type of countries is beneficial because there is a belt and road initiative that Beijing and the communists in China are doing and they will fill that vacuum. But we don't need to waste it on, say, $7 million to Canada so they can have BIPOC seminars.

Canada is a wealthy nation. They quite frankly, shouldn't receive any foreign aid from the United States.

KEILAR: I'm not aware of the USAID review that you speak of. I'll do a check in to that. I will note that the Republican chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Roger Wicker, said that USAID, he said this to our Manu Raju is quote, "our way to combat Belt and Road in the competition with China." Is he wrong?

FALLON: I don't think the President saying that he wants to eliminate the mission. I think he's saying -- he wants to do it more efficiently and probably.

KEILAR: Bur he's saying USAID --

FALLON: And I fully agree with the President.

KEILAR: -- is the way to do that. Is Roger Wicker wrong? FALLON: No. USAID maybe not under its current leadership is the way to

do it. But there's a mechanism in which to have and dispense foreign aid properly.

KEILAR: Okay. So you -- as I mentioned, you sit also on the House Armed Services Committee. And we are expecting layoffs of the civilian federal workforce. I wonder if you are expecting layoffs or dismissals of any of the military leadership anytime soon.

FALLON: Well, that's going to be the purview of the Commander in Chief. But clearly, we need to take our most talented folks and reward them. And folks that aren't doing their jobs well, they need to go. And I mean, it was the father of modern progressivism, Franklin Delano Roosevelt talked about public sector unions and how problematic they are. So I would agree with FDR in that regard.

KEILAR: Can you guarantee that there will not be a political purge of military brass of general and flag officers by this administration?

FALLON: I think the President is going to focus on what the military does best and that is projecting power, both soft and armed power and lethality. And the generals and admirals that can do that I think will stay. And the ones that can't will go. And that's the purview of any commander in chief.

KEILAR: So it sounds like you are expecting some kind of purge.

FALLON: Didn't say that at all. Like, not at all.

KEILAR: You said you expect they will go.

FALLON: What I'm saying is I'm expecting the President.

KEILAR: How are they going to go, you think? Are they going to volunteer?

FALLON: No, I'm expecting that -- it's not a political purge. What I said was people that aren't doing their jobs are not performing --

KEILAR: Well, what does that mean?

FALLON: -- will go. That has nothing to do with politics. That means if you're not one of the top performers, then you will -- it doesn't matter if it's the military or anybody in federal government, then you won't be employed longer. That's what I would do if I was -- I want the best people. I want the ones that have the most merit, and that's what the President is doing.

KEILAR: So you expect that if there are dismissals in the military, it will be based entirely on performance, on whether or not they're the top performers?

FALLON: Correct. Absolutely.

[14:25:00]

KEILAR: Okay. And also, you are --

FALLON: That's actually what I -- yeah. Yes.

KEILAR: -- you are on the personnel subcommittee. Are you aware -- I mean, I know you're aware that military families need a second income for their service member to serve. We live in a two income economy. That's kind of just how it is most of the time for most families. Are you aware how many military spouses and also retiring service members are being caught up in this return to work EO and this hiring freeze?

FALLON: Well, I just actually got the gavel. I'm the subcommittee chairman for military personnel and I just got it. And we just -- we haven't met yet as a committee. But one of the things that we want to focus on is quality of life issues for our military personnel, not just the person serving, but their whole family. And also, we have a recruiting crisis that we have seen other than the Marine Corps, the other three branches have not met the recruiting goals year-over-year.

KEILAR: I'm not asking you about recruiting goals --

FALLON: And that is now --

KEILAR: With all due respect, Sir, I'm asking you because I talked to military spouses --

FALLON: Okay, quality life issues.

KEILAR: Okay. But I'm talking to you about -- there are service members who cannot stay because they have, you know, multiple children and a spouse, and they can't stay and serve if their spouse cannot have a jobs. Many of them are gainfully employed in the federal government. It is a huge employer of military spouses. It's also a huge employer of veterans like yourself who have transitioned out of service and into the -- some into the private sector, but a lot of them into the federal workforce. Are you aware of how many of them are being affected by this because I'm hearing from a ton of them?

FALLON: And you're hearing that someone has lost their job or they fear that they're going to lose your job. Because again, if you're a federal worker and you're doing a great job, I don't think you have anything to worry about.

KEILAR: No, it's an issue of remote work. The OPM guidance that is supposed to exempt military spouses who are remote workers is not being honored in some agencies. You have teleworking spouses who, when they're service members, including in the Special Forces, Navy seals, they have their service member going on deployments, they have three children, and they are being told that they need to drive, you know, 40 miles an hour and a half each way to work and back when telework was allowing them to work before their kids got up, get their kids to school or to daycare, work after their kids went to bed so that they could do -- and these are people, Sir, who are working very hard. They see this as service. These are military spouses who are viewing their federal work as service the way their service members and all of these service branches view their service. Are you aware of this? It doesn't sound like it. FALLON: Brianna, can I ask you a question? Was this telework available

prior to COVID, or was this something that was born out of COVID?

KEILAR: Yes.

FALLON: Do you know that? Can you answer it?

KEILAR: Prior to COVID, Sir.

FALLON: Was it due to COVID?

KEILAR: Prior to COVID.

FALLON: Prior to COVID, it was?

KEILAR: Yes.

FALLON: Okay, they could telework. Okay. And so what you're saying now is they're not being allowed to telework, or is somebody just telling you that because it sounds anecdotal.

KEILAR: It's not anecdotal, Sir.

FALLON: Okay.

KEILAR: It's not anecdotal. I'm telling you, it's not anecdotal.

FALLON: So did -- now, Brianna, what I'm asking you is, did somebody tell you this? Did they call you up on the phone, or did you read about it in an article? I'm just asking the question.

KEILAR: Sir, I'm talking to dozens of military spouses.

FALLON: Okay.

KEILAR: They had telework before COVID. They are in a position where they will not be able to maintain their work because of this return to work EO, even the OPM guidance involving remote work is not being honored to the word by some of these agencies, which is going to have to force them out of the workforce because they cannot manage their families and their job.

FALLON: Well, we're going to have to take a look at that. I haven't seen that. And you've Talked to apparently 18 or so military spouses? I've talked to plenty of military spouses. I haven't heard that, but I'm certainly welcoming to look into it.

KEILAR: I've talked to significantly more than 18. But all right --

FALLON: Okay. Well, you just told me dozens, so I guess what is dozens then? Is dozens hundreds of people?

KEILAR: It's not --

FALLON: I think dozens are in 12.

KEILAR: It's not anecdotal. I will tell you that. This is widespread across many, many agencies. And it's something --

FALLON: So you've done scientific research on it already. Okay.

KEILAR: I've done reporting on it. That's what I do, I report.

FALLON: Okay.

KEILAR: But it's a broad problem.

FALLON: Okay.

KEILAR: I'm just letting you know. Congressman, we'll check back in --

FALLON: Well, there's a difference between a reporting and spin. So there's that. Okay. See you, Brianna.

KEILAR: I'm not spinning. I'm not spinning it, Sir. These are military spouses who are the backbone of the military. And this is what they're saying is happening.

FALLON: Yup.

KEILAR: Some of whom support Trump.

FALLON: Okay. Okay. Thank you.

KEILAR: All right. Congressman, thank you so much for being with us. And right now, protesters are turning out cities across America. Boris?

SANCHEZ: Yeah.