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Sig Taken Down at USAID Headquarters; Trump Admin Laying Off Nearly All USAID Workers Tonight; Judge Pauses Deadline For Fed Workers to Accept "Buyout" Offer. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired February 07, 2025 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:01:24]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Thanks so much for joining us this afternoon. I'm Boris Sanchez alongside Brianna Keilar in Washington, D.C.

And at any moment, President Donald Trump is expected to hold a joint press conference with Japanese Prime Minister Shigeru Ishiba live from the White House.

BRIANNA KEILAR: And CNN's Kaitlan Collins is there. Kaitlan, the President likely to face some tough questions as the administration pushes forward with its federal worker crackdown.

Tell us more.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, they've been praising that deadline that was extended because the judge who blocked it from happening last night and going into effect. They're saying that the fact that it's extended until those legal arguments can happen on Monday actually benefits them. We know the numbers last night were about 65,000 federal workers who had decided to take that what is being described essentially as a buyout here. We'll see what happens with those legal challenges that have been running headfirst into President Trump's agenda.

But right now, we're here waiting for him to come out with his second world leader that he has met with this week. This time, unlike the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, he knew quite well, it is the Japanese Prime Minister Ishiba who it is his first time meeting with President Trump. And it's a high stakes meeting for the Japanese because obviously, economically and militarily, Japan depends on the United States a lot. And Trump famously had a very close relationship with the former Prime Minister of Japan, Shinzo Abe, who was shot and killed after leaving office in 2022.

And so watching to see what this relationship looks like, because so much of the Trump foreign policy is at times determined by the relationships personally that he has with these world leaders and what that looks like. We saw them in the Oval Office earlier, seated side by side. They just had a lengthy bilateral meeting. Some of the President's cabinet is already here behind me, including Interior Secretary Doug Burgum.

And so we'll be waiting to see if any assurances were made during that, how that relationship developed, if the Japanese Prime Minister offered anything of his own, whether it comes to purchasing weapons or our military options there as well, also trade AI. All of this is on the table for discussion.

And of course, as we saw at the press conference here the other night, there was an extended Q&A session from President Trump after that. So we'll be watching to see what happens here. Given the flurry of activity, we are seeing on week three that he is in office.

SANCHEZ: Kaitlan Collins, live from the White House. We'll look forward to that press conference happening in just moments.

Let's go to CNN's Jeff Zeleny. Jeff, President Trump's mission to drastically downsize the federal government, it appears to be closing in on a specific group of workers. What more what can you tell us?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Boris, it is so interesting. As President Trump is inside the White House, they're really across Washington, the effects of his three weeks in office are absolutely being felt. And now, we are learning more about the plan for shrinking the size of the federal government. And this is completely separate from this buyout program, if you will, we've been talking about. It's to get some other federal workers out of the workforce. And we are learning of this message that has been sent out to all supervisors, essentially asking them to rank their employees.

Take a look at this ranking that federal government workers are already being ranked at. It's outstanding, exceeds, fully successful, minimally satisfactory or unsatisfactory. And we are told that anyone in the bottom three categories, they may end up on a list and may be among the people to be pushed out of the government. We shall see how that works. Of course, all of this is at the hand of Elon Musk, who has taken over the Department of Government Efficiency to much consternation and spotlight as well.

[14:05:00]

But the President was asked about this a short time ago in the Oval Office, about Elon Musk, who of course, appeared on Time Magazine sitting behind the resolute desk, raising the question just who is in charge?

BRIANNA KEILAR: All right, Jeff --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, 45TH & 47 TH U.S. PRESIDENT: Is Time Magazine still in business? I didn't even know that.

WOMAN #1: (Speaking foreign language)

TRUMP: Elon is doing a great job. He's finding tremendous fraud and corruption and waste. You see it with the USAID, but you're going to see it even more so with other agencies and other parts of government. He's got a staff that's fantastic. He's wanted to be able to do this for a long time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: So this is the look of the picture of the front of the Time Magazine that the President was talking about there. Look, that is the resolute desk in a, you know, a setting that is so recognizable. Of course, President Trump knows Time Magazine still exists. He was Time's man of the year just last year when he won reelection.

But look, the bottom line to all of this is, are things being done in this government without the approval of Congress? Of course, the USAID, prime example of this, it's a congressionally funded agency, and it has effectively been dismantled. Even the sign has been taken down. So those, of course, are some of the many questions facing the President as he ends his third week in office here at the White House. Boris?

KEILAR: All right. Jeff Zeleny live for us from the North Lawn --

ZELENY: Brianna.

KEILAR: -- Thank you so much. And let's take a look now, because there actually are some pictures coming to us from USAID, where we have been seeing a, I'm told, a cherry picker actually removing the sign of USAID there at its headquarters. I mean, the message is loud and clear here. The Trump administration saying that USAID, for all intents and purposes, as it has historically been, is out of business. Trump has said that it was being wound down. And there you have it. Quite a visual of this.

President Trump's effort to dismantle the agency is facing a new legal hurdle, though. Two labor groups representing the humanitarian agency's employees are now suing. But the clock is ticking closer to the midnight deadline when its global workforce will be facing huge cuts. With us now is Elie Honig, CNN Senior Legal Analyst, Former Assistant U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York, and a Former Federal Prosecutor.

We're just seeing the pictures here, Elie, the speed with which this is being dismantled. You can just see it. What is the recourse here that the challengers have in this legal case, really, if they're federal employees? Can the President just fire them?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: So, Brianna, that cherry picker image that you just showed actually could become relevant to the legal dispute. And let me explain why? The argument that the challengers are going to make here is that of course the President is the Head of the Executive Branch, but he does not have the power to establish or to get rid of an agency unless Congress authorizes it.

Now, what it looked like the Trump administration would say in defense is, well, we're not getting rid of USAID altogether. We're just going from 10,000 employees to down to 290 or so employees. And if they're taking down the sign, though, I think that's kind of consistent with the idea of they are trying to get rid of it altogether.

So that's actually a little detail, a little fact that the challengers might use in their favor to say, no, what he's really actually doing here is getting rid of the agency altogether. He lacks the power to do that. Only Congress can do that.

KEILAR: And what about the President's words? I mean, that might be more significant. He has said it's being wound down.

HONIG: Yeah, he will certainly see his own words quoted back to him in court papers. What I think the Trump administration is going to say in their defense is they're going to take a very broad view of his executive power. They're going to say he is not just the Head of the Executive Branch, he is, by some constitutional structure, he is the executive branch.

And of course, the President can choose to fire federal employees if he wants and he can't be bound by, by bureaucratic rules or procedural requirements and that type of thing. So ultimately this is going to come down to a question of just how powerful is the President, A, within the executive branch and B, with respect to Congress.

KEILAR: Okay, and then what about this buyout, so called buyout that the Trump administration is offering to federal workers? Because as we know, a judge put it on hold for a few days, just until Monday. Can the federal government offer buyouts to these employees? Is that illegal?

HONIG: Well, so I think people may be asking that exact question because this happens all the time in private industry and there's usually nothing wrong with it. But the federal government is different because it's -- again, it's a Congress versus the executive branch.

[14:10:04]

Congress holds the purse strings, Congress gets to decide when and how much money gets spent. And so it's really not the executive's authority to say, well, we're going to offer these buyouts which are going to cost hundreds of millions of dollars right now.

And the other thing that the challengers in those cases are saying, Brianna, is there has not been a decent reason given for these buyouts in order to take this sort of action. Again, you have to jump through various procedural hurdles. And the challenger is saying that hasn't been done. But the President again is going to say, I'm the Head of the Executive Branch, why do I have to comply with various regulations put out by my own executive branch? I'm the one in charge.

KEILAR: And then Trump is trying to end birthright citizenship that's also been halted by federal judges. There's now more than a dozen states, their AGs who are challenging this. How does it get resolved when there are multiple lawsuits in several different districts?

HONIG: Yeah, so we have multiple topics, each of which has multiple lawsuits. As you said, Brianna, the birthright citizenship issue now has at least five different lawsuits going on. But over the next couple weeks and months, think of it as sort of a filter. These cases all start out in the federal district court. That's a trial level court.

But there are 94 of those across the country. And sometimes you'll see a lot of different plaintiffs going into a lot of different courts. Eventually, they will filter up to the federal courts of Appeals. There are 13 different circuit courts of appeals. And then ultimately perhaps we could see a case go up to the U.S. Supreme Court.

And that's really one of the main reasons why the Supreme Court exists and one of the main factors to determine whether the court will take a case if they're seeing a split, a difference in how different circuits or different districts are applying a law that makes it more likely that the Supreme Court will ultimately get involved. So this will remain chaotic for the next several days and weeks, but eventually it will work itself out in the courts.

KEILAR: All right. Elie Honig, thank you so much. Boris?

SANCHEZ: Gutting one of the world's leading aid agencies has been a priority for the wealthiest man in the world, Elon Musk and his associates at DOGE. We want to discuss now with Former USAID Assistant Administrator for Global Health, Dr. Atul Gawande.

Thank you so much for joining us doctor. We appreciate you being with us. You've said that even a temporary stoppage of USAID programs does enormous damage to the United States and is a gift to our enemies and competitors. Help us understand why?

DR. ATUL GAWANDE, FORMER USAID ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR FOR GLOBAL HEALTH: Well, you're trying to stop an airplane in midflight, fire the crew, and then expect that things are all going to be okay. These are thousands of people all across the world working in some of the most dangerous places or poorest places to advance our national security as civilians without guns, going in and doing everything from eradicating polio, trying to end HIV, to working with refugees and people who are in starvation in conflict zones.

So, you know, we're putting people in harm's way. We are, by simply pulling the rug out from under them, yanking them back, but in many cases, stranding them out there at the moment. As one of the people I spoke to who were out in the field said to me, our government is attacking us. I've never been treated worse and I've worked in dictatorships around the world. So this is both how we're treating our people and recognizing this is our ground force for foreign policy and assistance around the world.

SANCHEZ: You sort of alluded, excuse me, alluded to this a second ago, doctor. You've expressed concern about how well the U.S. can respond to the spread of disease and pandemics. If the work of USAID is interrupted, what role does the agency play in that effort?

GAWANDE: So the agency is the critical ground force and availability of resources for responding to diseases that threaten populations and can come to the United States. A case example is right now in Uganda is a very serious Ebola outbreak in the capital city. They are an international travel hub. There have been Americans exposed there as it is.

And, you know, mobilizing our resources and capability has been stymied, including not only by the freeze, but also by the fact that they're not allowed to communicate with WHO which leads these responses. We have bird flu that has killed people in the United States. CDC is not currently -- they've been blocked from publishing information about bird flu, scientific information.

And then on top of it, for USAID, they have the monitoring in 49 countries for bird flu, and that's been shut down and in fact is being folded up.

[14:15:08]

All of this work is being ended -- has ended as of 10 days ago.

SANCHEZ: Doctor, what's your response to accusations from Trump and the Acting Director of USAID, Secretary of State Marco Rubio, that the agency has been misusing U.S. taxpayer dollars, spending money on initiatives that contradict U.S. foreign policy?

GAWANDE: Yeah, they're casting it as a criminal enterprise, a rogue agency. And it is a bold face lie. This is an agency that is run top to bottom with political appointees at the leadership I led as a political appointee at the global health level and then even below that, all the way down.

And, you know, in the first Trump administration, they never had any of these troubles. The administration moved it to their priorities. The Biden administration moved it to its priorities. And now, the Trump administration is back with its priorities and is attacking staff, civil service staff and Foreign Service staff for following their job as administrations change.

There is a, you know, there's a list being peddled of 12 different items that are, you know, that are made to sound outrageous. And the Washington Post debunked it. Some of them, in fact, one of them was an expenditure during the Trump administration. Others were State Department, and others are simply distorted.

SANCHEZ: We've addressed some of those claims here on our show. I just want to let viewers know we just saw footage a moment ago just outside the headquarters of USAID. If you look there on the sign right under the address of 1300 Pennsylvania Avenue, you see USAID's name is supposed to be there, and it's actually blocked off with black tape. That happened just in the last few moments is that cherry picker is outside the building, apparently in the process of taking a sign down.

Quickly, doctor. I think part of this is a response to a sentiment in this country among a large part of the electorate that believes that foreign aid should be limited because the money would be better spent here at home, for instance, to help folks recover from natural disasters or assistance for veterans. On all matter of things, why do you think these investments abroad are worthwhile?

GAWANDE: Well, first of all, in terms of the size of the investments, for example, the global health investments, which is one of the two largest spaces, is about $8 billion, and that is a lot of money. On the other hand, the whole budget for the U.S. government, seven trillion. So this is a tiny fraction of it.

Further, it's about half of the entire budget of my hospital system where I practice surgery. And with it, we're reaching hundreds of millions of people. This is the agency that eradicated smallpox from the world to the benefit of humanity.

And the United States is about to eradicate polio, has brought HIV under control and is on path to ending it. Only now we have abandoned, literally abandoned, 20 million people who are living with HIV, who depend on medications to stay alive. And we're going to see a resurgence of HIV because of stepping back, which hurts America.

We're not following in on the diseases out of control. These are significant harms. This is our civilian security force without need of guns, but instead coming in with a helping hand and executing on all kinds of missions around the world of great importance.

Being told you have to pack up and leave in the middle of without, you know, in an extraordinarily chaotic way. I mean, the financial systems are shut down. You're seeing them tape over the banner. And these people don't even have ways that they're able to get proper communications and support for returning home. They don't know if their belongings are going to be brought back with them.

SANCHEZ: Sure.

GAWANDE: It is a shameful way to treat people who have been out there working on behalf of the United States in places all over the world.

SANCHEZ: Dr. Atul Gawande, we very much appreciate you sharing your perspective with us. Thanks for joining us.

GAWANDE: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: So we've been tracking this looming press conference between the Prime Minister of Japan and President Donald Trump. We've been waiting now for a bit. We were told it was going to start a short while ago and then it got delayed and now we're told it's imminent again. And you see folks are standing in the room. So apparently it is about to happen.

KEILAR: It does seem so. Let's go to our Kaitlan Collins, who is there. Kaitlan, what should we be looking for?

[14:20:02]

COLLINS: Yeah, we're waiting to see. I should note the Vice President just came in the room. That is usually an indication that we are getting closer to the start of this press conference. But this is coming after that meeting that's been happening behind closed doors between President Trump and the Prime Minister of Japan.

Their first meeting, actually, that has happened after they were trying to make something work during the transition. When you were seeing world leaders go and either have conversations with President Trump or visit with him at Mar-a-Lago and speak to him on the phone. And obviously, this is a crucial meeting for Japan that depends on the United States so much, whether economically or militarily.

And the President had a very close relationship with the last prime minister of Japan, I should note. And I should note they're coming here in the room right now. So we'll see how that meeting went, if any agreements or assurances were made, and, of course, when they take questions from reporters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Thank you very much. Thank you very much. It's a great honor to be with the Prime Minister. We had a picture taken a little while ago, and it was so nice. I thought I'd present it to you on stage. And here's the picture. I wish I was as handsome as him, but I'm not.

SHIGERU ISHIBA, JAPANESE PRIME MINISTER: Okay, thank you. Oh.

TRUMP: Remember that day? Thank you very much, everybody. Appreciate it. I'm delighted to welcome Japanese Prime Minister Ishiba Shigeru to the White House for the first time. And Prime Minister, it's an honor to have you with us. A great honor. Japan is a great country. Thank you very much.

Japan is strong and proud. It's a nation that is home to one of the great civilizations in the history of the world. For nearly 80 years, the American Japanese people have enjoyed a friendship like few others. We've had a great friendship across the vast ocean. And we found ourselves united by bonds of history, commerce, culture, mutual admiration and great respect.

After our meeting today, I'm confident that the cherished alliances between our two countries and others also will continue to flourish long and into the future. The military cooperation between the United States and Japan is one of our closest security partnerships, and it's one of the closest we have anywhere in the world. Our service members work together every day to defend our common interests.

Japan is committed to double its defense spending by 2027 compared to my first term. They've invested a lot of money because of my first term. We worked on that very hard with Shinzo, you know, the great Shinzo Abe. And we look forward to seeing even more. So Shinzo and I worked very, very long and hard, and those numbers are very reflective after my first term.

And now, they're going up very substantially based on our conversations today. In addition to being vital for our shared security, Japan is one of the top purchasers of U.S. military exports and equipment. And I'm pleased to say that this week my administration approved nearly a billion dollars in foreign military sales to Tokyo. The United States is totally committed to the security of Japan. We will extend the full strength of American deterrence capabilities in defense of our friend and ally 100%. In the years to come, the Prime Minister and I will be working closely together to maintain peace and security. And I also say peace through strength and all over the Indo-Pacific. And to that end, we also remain committed to the effort I began in my first term to ensure safety and stability on the Korean Peninsula.

Prime Minister Ishiba and I spoke long and hard about a vital economic relationship between our two countries and the continuance of that relationship. The United States and Japan trade over $300 billion in goods and services each year. Japan has invested nearly $800 billion. And that's going to go up very, very substantially in the coming months, more than any other country. And they're going to have some competition. We have a lot of people coming in and investing in the United States.

I think our -- the feeling throughout the world has never been stronger about this country. As a result of our victory in 2024, the presidential election, the Japanese investment and technology giant SoftBank announced plans to invest between 100 and 200 billion dollars.

[14:25:04]

And we have many other companies investing that number higher than that number, some a little bit less. But we have trillions of dollars of investment pouring into our country now that you didn't have just a short while ago.

Today, our teams discussed how our two nations can do even more to stay on the cutting edge of artificial intelligence, along with the quantum computing, semiconductors and other critical technologies. And they're coming out the problem with technology, that kind, it's obsolete in about two days. So we have to start all over again. Doesn't last long. We agreed to cooperate even more closely to combat the Chinese economic aggression, which is quite aggressive.

I'm also pleased to announce that Japan will soon begin importing historic new shipments of clean American liquefied natural gas in record numbers. It'll be record numbers. With our Secretary of the Interior, we were talking -- I think Doug is here. Hello, Doug. Please stand up, Doug. Doug Burgum, everybody.

We're talking about the pipeline in Alaska, which is the closest point of major oil and gas to Japan by far less than half the distance of any other location. We're talking about a joint venture of some type between Japan and us having to do with Alaska oil and gas. And that's very exciting. They're very excited about it, so are we.

As we deepen our economic relationship, I made clear that the United States will be conducting trade with all countries based on the principle of fairness and reciprocity. Chronic trade deficits not only undermine our economy, they really do. And we're going to get rid of the trade. We have a trade deficit with Japan of over $100 billion. But we're going to work that out. And I think very quickly, frankly, we can do it just on oil and gas. We can work it out. So we intend to do it very quickly. We both understand that. And as America welcomes new foreign investment, we also want to ensure that companies build their products and factories here in America, not simply by the assets that we have. And Japan is going to be opening up auto plants. New auto plants are being built currently as we speak. They've just been started. Toyota is one. And Nissan's going to be doing something very exciting about U.S. steel. They'll be looking at an investment rather than a purchase.

We didn't like the idea, U.S. steel is a very important company to us. It was the greatest company in the world for 15 years, many years ago, 80 years ago. And we didn't want to see that leave. And it wouldn't actually leave but the concept psychologically not good. So they've agreed to invest heavily in U.S. steel as opposed to own it. And that sounds very exciting. And we're going to meet with Nissan next week, the head of Nissan, very great company and they'll work out the details. I'll help. I'll be there to mediate and arbitrate.

Then I had the privilege of working closely with the great Prime Minister as you know and you know him very well. Shinzo Abe, the longest serving Prime Minister in Japan's history. Likewise, I expect that this Prime Minister is going to be a great one. I really believe that he's going to be a great one. I've gotten to know him for not long but I can see what they have. He's got the qualities of greatness. He's going to do a fantastic job for Japan and for the Japanese people.

And I'd like now to invite the Prime Minister to say a few words and then we'll take some questions. Mr. Prime Minister, thank you. Thank you very much.

ISHIBA: Thank you for inviting me to the White House today, immediately following your inauguration. I also thank you for your very warm hospitality. I have come to Washington D.C. with the hope of having a face-to-face meeting and deepening our mutual understanding.

At this early dates with President Trump who is now leading the United States the most important country for Japan's diplomacy and security and aligning our perspectives and visions that Japan and united pursue. What should we do to advance the national interests both of our countries in synergy and to realize peace and prosperity in the Indo-Pacific? I am convinced that the answer (inaudible) further strengthening the strong and unwavering Japan U.S. Alliance to achieve a free and open Indo-Pacific --