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Soon: Judge Hears Arguments On Legal Challenge To Federal "Buyout" Offer; China's Retaliatory Tariffs On U.S. Products Begin Today; Stephen Miller Emerges As One Of The Most Powerful Figures In WH; Protests In Israel After Hamas Threatens To Delay Hostage Release; U.S. Special Envoy For Ukraine And Russia To Visit Kyiv Next Week. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired February 10, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:01:43]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Is the Trump administration's so-called buyout offer to federal employees even legal? A hearing happening right now could answer that question. A lot is riding on this as workers face a deadline today to accept or decline that offer.

And President Trump announcing plans for more tariffs focused on steel and aluminum imports, and he says new reciprocal tariffs are coming as well. Ahead, how this could all impact your bottom line.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: And Israel's defense minister orders the country's military to be on the highest level of alert after Hamas postpones the next hostage release. Both sides now accusing the other of violating the ceasefire deal.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

A critical hearing set to take place in federal court as a judge hears arguments on whether to extend his pause on President Trump's so- called buyout program for nearly two million federal workers. Judge George O'Toole, a Clinton appointee, temporarily halted the deadline for workers to accept the offer on Thursday. CNN's Paula Reid is with us now on this story.

So Paula, how's the hearing going so far?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, I usually don't bring my phone to our conversations on live TV, but it appears that this hearing has just wrapped up. We are waiting for the judge to come back. We don't have an order or decision, and our colleague who's inside the court says that so far throughout this hearing, this federal Clinton-appointed judge has not really tipped his hand at all.

First, he heard from lawyers representing the federal employees' union who called this offer, right, this offer to resign now and allegedly get paid through September confusing, stunningly arbitrary. They accused the government of not considering the kinds of roles that are needed for the government to work properly. They also said that their employees don't really even understand what it is they're accepting.

Now, in addition to pressing the judge to continue to delay the deadline to accept this offer, they're also trying to press for the government to give them assurances that it actually has the authority to enforce something like this. So, after he heard from the unions, and the judge also, of course, heard from the government, they described this offer as, quote, a humane off-ramp for people who built their lives around remote work. They say that doing what the unions are asking right now, further delaying this deadline, would be disruptive to their efforts. The government said this is a policy about the federal government managing its workforce.

Now, again, I just want to look at our colleagues, see if we've gotten an update. We haven't. The judge has left the bench and they are waiting for him to come back with an answer on whether he will extend this deadline and if he seeks any assurances from the government about whether they have this authority.

KEILAR: So that could happen really ...

REID: Any minute ...

KEILAR: ... any moment, right?

REID: Yes.

KEILAR: Okay, Paula. We know you'll be tracking that and we'll bring that to our viewers as soon as we know what happens. Boris?

SANCHEZ: Meantime, President Trump is, again, expanding his trade war. Today, he's vowing to announce more tariffs, focusing this time on steel and aluminum imports, a 25 percent hike that will hit Canada and Mexico hard. As you can see, they're some of the biggest steel and aluminum exporters to the United States.

[15:05:04]

This comes on the same day that China's retaliatory taxes on billions in U.S. exports go into effect. And this latest round of Trump import taxes could be just the beginning. Keep in mind, Trump says that this week he will announce reciprocal tariffs, which could match other countries' tariffs on U.S. goods dollar for dollar.

We're joined now by CNN's Richard Quest.

Richard, help us understand these new tariffs, what they mean and the intended goal from President Trump.

RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS EDITOR-AT-LARGE: The intended goal from the president is straightforward. He believes that the United States has been treated very unfairly in numerous trade negotiations and that U.S. has tariffs on their exports going into other countries when the U.S. is a much more open market in its own right. And so, the President is basically doing a tit-for-tat.

He is saying not only you charge us this, we're going to charge you that. He's going one stage further. He's actually ratcheting it up. He is using tariffs as a way to rebalance the terms of trade, if you would put it in the posh language of economics, and he hopes to do so.

So, for instance, the immediate ones, this 25 percent on steel and aluminum, or aluminum as I said, with aluminum, I'll give you that one, that's going to hit Canada and Mexico, which are all part of the USMCA anyway, so that's arguably illegal. But it's also going to hit Brazil, it's going to hit Japan, it'll hit the European Union, now you go on and on and on.

What's worrying the markets and what's worrying those who look at trade is that, yes, the U.S. has a vast trade deficit on goods and service - on goods, but it has a massive surplus on surfaces: insurance, banking and things like that. So, it's not all a one-way street.

SANCHEZ: Richard, we may install a tax on pronouncing aluminum that way. It's aluminum, not aluminum. Nevertheless, reciprocal tariffs, what could that mean? Walk us through the implications of that.

QUEST: Right. Okay, reciprocal tariffs absolutely will mean higher prices in the United States. This is where, for whatever reason, another country is already charging the U.S. exporter. So, for example, automobiles that go to Europe, pharmaceuticals in many cases, soft lumber going to Canada. These are examples where the other country is charging a tariff on the U.S. The U.S. is basically saying, right, we are now going to do tit-for-tat, or otherwise known as in the posh language of economics, reciprocal tariffs.

But here's one point to bear in mind. If you look overall - overall, the average tariff going into the U.S. is about 1.6 percent. The average tariff going into the EU, not that much difference. It is when you get to countries like Germany, Brazil, and others, that it gets much higher.

SANCHEZ: Always appreciate the posh language of Richard Quest. Coming to us live from Dubai, we should note. Richard, enjoy, thanks so much.

So, we're just three weeks into President Trump's second term. And in that short time, the administration has launched this avalanche of executive orders and efforts to dismantle government agencies. One person in Trump's inner circle is playing a major role in all of that. There's this new CNN reporting by our colleagues shining a light on Stephen Miller, Trump's deputy chief of staff for policy, and a key behind-the-scenes architect of this aggressive strategy.

KEILAR: And the reporting says, in part, "From a small West Wing office down the hall from the Oval Office, Miller is a leading force behind a relentless flood-the-zone strategy inside the White House, helping guide the president through the opening weeks of his second term. It's a playbook Miller has spent years thinking about."

We're joined now by our Mark Preston and Jeff Zeleny. And Jeff, starting with you here, you're one of the reporters on the byline here. Walk us through what you're learning about Miller's role. JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, Brianna, there's not really anything that has happened over the first three weeks of this administration that Stephen Miller has not had his hand on. He is guiding the force here, one of the essential people guiding the force here behind this flood-the-zone strategy.

Stephen Miller has been a longtime advisor to the President. Of course, he worked on Capitol Hill before that. He's long been obsessed with immigration. His portfolio now, we're told, is much, much broader than that. He has a large hand in rolling out and deciding which executive orders will be signed, the speed in which has been really sort of hard to keep up with. And that, indeed, is the point.

[15:10:05]

And now, the legal fights are coming as well. That also is, indeed, the point.

Of course, the whole beginning of this presidency has been an exercise into - to test the power of the executive branch, and that's something that Stephen Miller is front and center in. So, he's not the White House chief of staff. He's a Deputy Chief of Staff, but he's much more visible than virtually anyone else inside this West Wing.

SANCHEZ: Yes, quite a bit of an understated title for his influence.

Mark, speed and volume are critical to Trump's strategy here, in terms of flooding the zone, so to speak. But a lot of this is getting held up in court. Politically, does that matter for Trump, in the sense that his supporters seem to feel that he's doing what he promised he would do?

MARK PRESTON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, if I may, first of all, Jeff's story that he's written with a couple of our colleagues, go to cnn.com and read it, because it goes deeper than just, hey, this is Stephen Miller, and he has a lot of control. It is a fascinating story.

Politically, this doesn't hurt President Trump. We can no longer look at the measurements that we used five years ago, ten years ago, heck, even like five months ago, okay? We measure people by their success differently now, and I think people need to come to that conclusion.

Donald Trump right now could go in and have all of these losses. He's already had losses, as we've noted. There are three judges now who have put a preliminary injunction stopping the birthright citizenship idea. You know, there are three migrants who don't have to go to Guantanamo right now, because there's an injunction. It's something that he's done as he's trying to put migrants there.

The bottom line is, though, Democrats need to get a message, and right now, they do not. If they're just going to rely on the courts, they're in trouble.

SANCHEZ: Jeff, to that point, it's clear over the last few days that Trump and his allies have zeroed in on the judiciary. You not only have JD Vance openly questioning whether the judiciary is effectively subservient to the executive's legitimate power, as he calls it, but then you have Elon Musk also talking about firing the worst 1 percent of appointed judges, something that he says would be determined by an elected body.

Does the administration fully understand the fight that it's taking up against the judiciary?

ZELENY: I think, without a question, yes. I mean, the Vice President, of course, a graduate of Yale Law School, knew exactly the message he was sending and believes the fact that they believe the executive branch is all powerful. Well, that is one thing that we are going to see under way here. The judge that Paula was just talking about, the ruling, when that comes down in Massachusetts, there are many more cases as well.

Once the administration begins to ignore some rulings, if they do, that will be a different level of this sort of engagement here between the branches of government. Some call it a constitutional crisis, so we shall sort of see about that, but this is something the administration is very keen on doing.

The judges are really the only speed bump that this administration has, so we shall see if they're followed. The history will show the administrations and the states have not always followed the rulings of judges. But in modern history, they generally have. So, we shall see what the next steps are here, but that certainly is something the Vice President is very much openly throwing out there as this week begins so many illegal cases about the first few weeks of the administration.

KEILAR: Yes. So, they know the fight. The Trump administration, Mark, knows what the fight is. They know the odds.

PRESTON: Yes.

KEILAR: They know that they may very well not succeed here, but as Democrats are struggling to find their footing sort of in the political sphere to be some kind of check on them, at least politically, you know, even if Trump isn't that successful in court, does it matter when it comes to messaging and politics?

PRESTON: You know, right, it doesn't because as long as he gets a lot done. Let's take a step back and think about what the American people think about Washington, D.C. They think very little about Washington, D.C., right? So, when they see President Trump going in there and you see Elon Musk going in there and saying, I've just cut $17 million, which he's now - he just said he cut a $17 million grant to teach, I don't know, tax advice in Liberia, okay?

Well, guess what? The person out in Kansas certainly doesn't care about that, what's going on in Liberia right now. So, as far as the everyday American, whether it's Elon Musk who's cutting the money here or the bureaucrats who have been here for all these years doing it, it's all the same to them, and that's how Trump is trying to frame it.

The problem is, though, Democrats, as you said, they have failed in the messaging. I - they need to get it together.

[16:15:00]

When Cory Booker was on with Dana Bash yesterday on STATE OF THE UNION, he gave a multi-pronged approach about how he was - how Democrats were going to take on Trump.

The number one idea was the legal strategy. Okay, that's not a - that's - yes, that should happen, but that should just happen.

Number two, legislative and oversight. They don't have any oversight because Republicans control Congress, you know? And then, he wanted to put some on the media, and it is incumbent upon us to explain what is happening in the grander scope, not just boom, boom, boom, this just happened. This just happened.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

PRESTON: This just happened. Take a step back.

SANCHEZ: Some Democrats are calling for a government shutdown. We'll see where that goes.

PRESTON: Crazy talk to do that. How can you call for a government shutdown when you're arguing about a government being cut? I don't understand that. I mean, it makes no sense politically, to me anyway, but what do I know?

SANCHEZ: Mark Preston, you know a lot. We appreciate ...

KEILAR: You know things.

SANCHEZ: ... we appreciate the analysis. Jeff Zeleny at the White House as well, thank you both.

Still to come, Hamas says the next hostage release won't happen Saturday as planned, saying that Israel is allegedly breaking their ceasefire terms. We'll tell you how Israel is reacting.

KEILAR: Plus, the newest government target in President Trump's crosshairs, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, employees at the watchdog agency now ordered just to stop all work.

And later, a dramatic escalation in surveillance activity. The U.S. deploys spy planes near the southern border with Mexico to gather intel on drug cartels that - on drug cartels. That and much more, coming up on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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KEILAR: Breaking news in the Israel-Hamas war, these are live pictures of protests happening right now there in Israel after Hamas threatened to delay Saturday's scheduled release of hostages until further notice. Its leaders accused Israel of breaking the ceasefire deal that went into effect three weeks ago. That is the allegation anyway. Specifically, Hamas says Israel delayed the return of displaced Gaza residents to northern parts of Gaza. It's also accusing Israel of blocking relief supplies. We have CNN's Jeremy Diamond live for us from Tel Aviv with the latest.

Jeremy, Hamas has just released a new statement about why they're doing this. It sounds like Israeli leaders are trying to figure out if what Hamas is alleging here is really what this is all about. How is that complicating matters?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Yes, without a doubt. I mean, there is so much happening in the background in addition to this specific statement. I mean, you have President Trump throwing out this idea of permanently displacing Gazans from the Gaza Strip and the United States taking ownership of it. You have the images over the weekend of those three emaciated Israeli hostages which have become seared into the public conscience here and are certainly driving more urgency for freeing the remaining hostages who remain in captivity in Gaza.

And then on top of that, now you inject this threat by Hamas, which as you can see in these images in Tel Aviv is already driving more protests here in Israel. Hamas says that it is making this threat because Israel has violated the ceasefire in several manners. They point specifically to Israel's targeting of Palestinians in Gaza, which Israeli forces have killed several Palestinians since the start of the ceasefire. They say that Israel has blocked the entry of shelter equipment such as tents and these prefabricated houses which have yet to enter the Gaza Strip. And they also point to the delay of the entry of medicines.

Now, Israel hasn't responded to some of these specific allegations by Hamas yet, but what they are saying is that they are putting their troops on high level of alertness for any possible scenario. That's from the Israeli Defense Minister Israel Katz.

Now, it is important to note that Hamas, after saying earlier that this hostage release would be delayed this coming Saturday, is now making very clear that this is a threat and that this is, while it is a serious threat, it is a threat that its implementation can be averted if Israel and the mediators take steps to address these alleged violations that Hamas is pointing out. Hamas is saying that by, say, making this threat five days before this release, that this should give the mediators, quote, "sufficient time to pressure Israel," and that it, quote, "leaves the door open for the exchange to proceed as planned."

So, certainly a serious threat to this ceasefire agreement at a very, very fragile time. By no means a guarantee that this ceasefire will collapse or that that hostage release on Saturday won't go ahead as planned. Brianna.

KEILAR: All right. Jeremy Diamond, live for us from Tel Aviv. Thank you for the report. Boris?

SANCHEZ: Turning now to Russia's war in Ukraine. President Trump says he's spoken with Russian President Vladimir Putin about the war and claims that Putin, quote, "wants to see people stop dying." In a new interview, Ukraine's president says he is ready to negotiate with Putin if the United States and Europe provide security guarantees. And just a short time ago, he announced that, quote, some serious people from Trump's team are visiting Ukraine this week. CNN Chief International Security Correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh, has covered the war extensively.

And, Nick, you write that very much could go wrong as Trump pushes for an end to this conflict.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, look, I mean, the choreography of how this is coming together is fascinating and abnormal, I think it's fair to say. We've known that at the Munich Security Conference this Friday and Saturday, the envoy for Ukraine for President Donald Trump, Keith Kellogg, is likely to present to allies parts of his plan here.

But then suddenly we have this flurry of activity involving Trump himself, who on Friday suggested that he might indeed meet Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy this week.

[15:25:08]

And then, Zelenskyy's team appear to have moved quite fast to try and get that to happen. And instead, they've got this team of, quote, serious people coming to Ukraine ahead of the Munich Security Conference.

We don't know who they are. I would suggest if they were very serious, he probably would have given us the names. But a lot moving in private here at this point. Conversations clearly like that Trump had with Putin, the Kremlin, simply haven't even confirmed happened. And so there's clearly a bid to try and get something moving. But the real issue here is quite where Ukraine has a place in all these negotiations.

For the whole Biden administration, for the whole three years of the war, they've been front and center of every part of Western policy. And now the noises we're hearing from Zelenskyy and his team are to remind people in media interviews how important it is to have Ukraine at the table if anything is indeed decided.

Trump has talked about Putin. He's talked to Putin. He thinks Putin wants a deal. Remember, his relationship with Zelenskyy in his first term, not ideal, you might say. And now, it is essentially Trump, who his envoy Kellogg says is going to be the one to present a peace plan. A lot could go wrong here. Russia's winning on the battlefield day by day, slowly but surely. And I think the ultimate issue here is whether the Kremlin actually wants a deal. Boris?

SANCHEZ: And Nick, one of the fascinating aspects to any potential deal is that Trump has said he wants to secure access to Ukraine's supply of rare earth minerals in exchange for continued U.S. assistance. How might that shape a potential deal? And how does it potentially alter the relationship between the U.S. and Ukraine?

WALSH: Yes, I mean, it's worth pausing and just thinking about that as a rationale for ending in NATO and Europe's favor the biggest war we've seen in Europe since the 1940s, to get a good deal of access to rare earth minerals. Now, Ukraine is not renowned for that. There are some suggestions it has a few, but it's not a key industry like it is, for example, in some South American countries. And so I think this is perhaps part of individuals trying to give a business rationale to the White House as to why Ukraine would be good to be on their side in the future.

One quick reminder, Boris, exactly the same argument was made to Trump and by Trump in 2017 about Afghanistan. And he signed a deal with the Taliban pretty quickly afterwards, which essentially gave the country back to them whether it happened under President Joe Biden. So, some warning signs there, perhaps.

SANCHEZ: Nick Paton Walsh, appreciate the reporting as always. Thanks so much.

Still to come, employees at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau are being told not to perform any work raising concerns about who is protecting Americans from big banks, payday lenders and other financial institutions. We're going to discuss with the director of the agency who was just fired when we come back.

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