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Musk Touts DOGE Transparency, Downplays His Own Potential Conflicts of Interest; Poultry Farmers Take Extra Precautions Due To Bird Flu; Hegseth Expected To Push NATO, EU To Boost Support For Ukraine. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired February 12, 2025 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:31:03]

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Elon Musk, the richest person in the world, is leading efforts to make massive cuts to federal agencies, but critics are warning there is a dangerous lack of transparency for his Department of Government Efficiency, never mind potential conflicts of interest.

Musk defended himself in the Oval Office yesterday with the president nodding along right next to him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELON MUSK, HEAD OF DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY: All of our actions are fully public. So if you see anything and you say, like, wait a second -- hey, Elon, that doesn't -- that seems like maybe that's -- you know, there's a conflict there, it's not people are going to be shy about that. They'll say it immediately, you know?

REPORTER: Including you, yourself?

MUSK: Yes. But it -- we're -- transparency is what builds trust -- not simply somebody asserting trust. So not somebody saying they are trustworthy but transparency so you can see everything that's going on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: That is not how federal employees and some of the recipients of federal contracts and grants see it. We've spoken to them ad nauseum over the past couple of weeks. They say that they are being kept in the dark about what DOGE is doing.

And when it comes to being transparent about his own finances those are not being shared. The White House says the billionaire will not file a public financial disclosure, raising some more concerns about the potential conflict of interest. He's got a whole bunch of government contracts.

CNN's Matt Egan is joining me now. What do you know about this report and why it is kind of being kept secret?

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Well, Sara, I don't think we've ever seen anything like this, right? You have the richest person on the planet taking a powerful role in the federal government and a position that is not Senate-confirmed. There's just enormous potential conflicts of interest. And yet, the public is not going to see what Elon Musk's finances really look like.

A White House official telling CNN's Alyana Treene that Musk, as an unpaid special government employee who is not a commission officer -- he will file a confidential financial disclosure report per the norm.

Now this is because of a bit of a loophole in the ethics law.

SIDNER: Yeah.

EGAN: Because Musk is not being paid, he gets to file this in secret unlike the Trump cabinet officials who have been --

SIDNER: Yes.

EGAN: -- Senate-confirmed. They've made their finances public. And arguably, they actually have a less influential role.

I talked to Richard Painter, the White House ethics czar under George W. Bush, and he told me this is a big problem because of Musk's power here. He says that eventually a judge should make that disclosure when it's made public.

And just look at Elon Musk's business empire here, right?

SIDNER: Yeah.

EGAN: I mean, SpaceX gets defense contracts. Tesla benefits from tax credits from the government, right? We have Neuralink. It relies on FDA approval. xAI, the AI startup -- that's going to be influenced by AI regulation. And then you also have the social media company X. It's getting into payments just as Elon Musk is sort of presiding over the gutting of the primary financial federal regulator, the CFPB, when it comes to payments.

And look, Elon Musk -- I mean, his net worth has skyrocketed since the election. November 5 it was $264 billion. It's more than $100 billion higher today at nearly $400 billion, Sara.

SIDNER: Just quickly, what is Elizabeth Warren saying? You had a conversation with her. She has been big over the Consumer Protection Bureau.

EGAN: Oh, yeah. I mean, it was basically her brainchild. She has been leading the defense of the CFPB. She told me that listen, the Republicans have control of both houses of Congress and the White House. And she said, "If the Republicans thought that they could get enough votes, they could get rid of the CFPB right now. So why don't the Republicans do that? Because it's damn popular."

She's arguing that look, it's -- this is bipartisan, right -- Republicans --

SIDNER: Right.

[07:35:00]

EGAN: -- Democrats, Independents. No one wants to get ripped off by their bank, by their credit card company, by their mortgage lender. The CFPB nearly $20 billion in consumer relief. Almost 200 million people have been helped. But look, this agency is clearly under siege right now -- Sara.

SIDNER: It is.

All right, Matt Egan. Thank you so much.

EGAN: Thanks.

SIDNER: I really appreciate it -- John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, with us now, CNN political commentator and former White House communications director under Donald Trump, Alyssa Farah Griffin.

So you were the communications director. You know, Michael Deaver, who worked in the Reagan White House -- deputy chief of staff in charge of photo ops. You largely did that, too.

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR UNDER DONALD TRUMP: Yeah.

BERMAN: So what do you make -- let's put the photo up so people can see. The images of Elon Musk standing over Donald Trump in the Oval Office. Maybe I can build a diorama to show you. What do you make of this image?

GRIFFIN: Listen, this is unlike anything we've seen, down to the adorable kid with Elon Musk. But I actually see it a little different because I think some folks are like this is showing Elon is really the one in charge, not Donald Trump.

What Trump is doing by putting Elon in charge of so much of overseeing the federal government and these massive cuts is he's giving himself distance from when they inevitably become unpopular -- these cuts that are made. He is delegating right now. He's not going to own it if he -- he hopes he will not own if people are really mad down the road when they say oh, great, we don't have this resource that we once had because of Elon.

Donald Trump's at his high water mark. He's the most popular he's ever been. But only 23 percent of Americans want to see Elon Musk have massive control over the government. He's extraordinarily unpopular.

So I actually see it more as there has been scrutiny around DOGE and some of these cuts. There have been some wrong information that's been put out. He brought Elon in and said you need to answer for it, and you're just going to stand here and take questions until you can. It's kind of vintage Donald Trump. He loves an Oval Office pressor, and he loves to kind of catch people off guard and put them on the spot to defend what they're doing.

BERMAN: A little good cop-bad cop action going on there?

GRIFFIN: I think so.

BERMAN: There was an exchange in there which I think has significance given what's happened in the last few days about whether the Trump administration and the president will obey judge's rulings --

GRIFFIN: Um-hum.

BERMAN: -- on some of the actions that Musk and his team have taken.

Let's listen to that exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: If a judge does block one of your policies -- part of your agenda -- will you abide by that ruling? Will you comply to that, sir?

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I always abide by the courts and then I'll have to appeal it. But then what he's done is he's slowed down the momentum and it gives crooked people more time to cover up the books. The answer is I always abide by the courts. I always abide by them. And we'll appeal but appeals take a long time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right -- a) do you believe him, and is it true he always abides by the court? But b) the second thing here is there's been a lot of questions because J.D. Vance and Elon Musk have floated this notion of ignoring judges.

GRIFFIN: Yeah. This seems to be a bit of a walking back of the J.D. Vance remarks that got a lot of scrutiny.

I think that broadly speaking, Donald Trump really wants to stretch the power of the executive to the fullest extent that he can. He really wants to push the limits of what he's able to do in office because he was frustrated in his first term. He felt like he was stopped by the courts, and he felt like he was stopped by Congress, so he's going to push the limits.

But I actually saw this as pretty notable because we've been throwing around the term "constitutional crisis" --

BERMAN: Um-hum.

GRIFFIN: -- which is what would happen if he defied the courts. I think he's saying that for the time being he is going to appeal. He is going to through the system as is. But he also may simply be holding his fire for a ruling that he cares more about.

BERMAN: Yeah. He -- at least for now, he walked it back behind that line of a constitutional crisis.

GRIFFIN: Yes, for now.

BERMAN: But they weren't far from it with J.D. Vance and others talking about flouting judges.

One other thing -- and again, your role as communications director is helpful here. The White House kicked the AP or won't let them into a couple of photo ops -- the Associated Press --

GRIFFIN: Yeah.

BERMAN: -- in the White House because the Associated Press is still calling that body of water south of Alabama and Mississippi and Louisiana -- they call it the Gulf of Mexico. Because the AP services, like institutions all around the world who still call it the Gulf of Mexico. Donald Trump, the president, has changed the name on U.S. maps to the Gulf of America. But he wouldn't let the AP -- they wouldn't let the AP in because of this action.

GRIFFIN: Well, you've seen some big companies like Google has changed it to Gulf of America in the United States. I have come to a heel at Donald Trump's beck and call. This is -- this -- is it petty? Yes.

BERMAN: Yeah.

GRIFFIN: It's what I would expect from Donald Trump. He is also -- traditionally the Associated Press gets the first question in the press briefing room for decades because they were the first seat holders. That's no longer the case. They're turning to new media first.

So I think it's basically him saying he's in charge and he's going to play by the rules that he wants to. Does it really matter? Not necessarily.

BERMAN: No.

GRIFFIN: But he doesn't -- he -- this is something that would very much irk him. And I think he wants it in the AP style guide because that's what a lot of news organizations follow.

BERMAN: it's just for all the talk of free speech that you hear from Trump, and Musk, and Vance --

GRIFFIN: Right.

BERMAN: -- and others, they say they're defenders of it, but the AP does something and they're like you're out.

GRIFFIN: Correct, and I think he's going to find -- I mean, they're the biggest wire service in the world -- that it benefits him to be in the good graces --

BERMAN: Sure.

GRIFFIN: -- of the AP and to give them access to what he's doing so they can cover it.

BERMAN: Alyssa Farah Griffin, great to see you.

GRIFFIN: Thanks.

BERMAN: Thank you very much -- Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Winter storm number one of the week done. Now on to storm number two about to hit the Midwest and the Northeast today.

Parts of Virginia recorded over a foot of snow yesterday. Students at Virginia Tech -- they're making the best of it with these -- maybe the scariest, largest snowball fight of all time. It looked like a scene from movies gone by.

[07:40:08]

Anyway, CNN's Derek Van Dam is tracking what has happened and what is about to come. You can comment also on Virginia Tech. That was like the -- I would have been terrified had I seen that many people coming out with snowballs, but regardless.

DEREK VAN DAM, AMS METEOROLOGIST: From one Midwesterner to another Midwesterner I think that was a pretty solid snowball fight. So I throw a mean --

BOLDUAN: I would say so.

VAN DAM: -- snowball and I know you do too, Kate, because I've seen -- I've seen your work. We come from a cold, hearty place and you know what? We know how to pack 'em properly, right?

So look -- D.C. got some of that snow as well and here's that fresh coating of snow on the National Mall.

Get this -- this is actually one of the snowiest seasons in the last five years and we've had more snow to date than we have over the past two years combined. So it's an impressive amount of snow. We added just under a half a foot of snow from this parade of storms that is marching from the West Coast to the East Coast.

So storm number one done. Storm number two currently in progress. Storm number three is waiting in its wings.

So let's talk about storm number two because this is bringing that wide swath of snow across the Plains and into the Midwest. Chicago, now is your time to shine. You have had more snow in New Orleans than you have had in Chicago in the entire winter season so far. But today it is going to change as the snowflakes are knocking on your doorstep.

Here is the latest radar zooming into the Windy City. You can see them just entering the western suburbs of Chicago. But it is snowing properly from Omaha to Kansas City where we anticipate anywhere from three to seven inches of snowfall. By the way, a severe threat and flash flood threat on the southern side of this system as well. So we're tracking all kinds of weather -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: I was just going to say that --

VAN DAM: If I had a snowball I'd throw it right at the camera.

BOLDUAN: -- all kinds of weather. Then you would be having to be paying for that camera.

It is great to see you, Derek. Thank you so much -- Sara.

SIDNER: All right. Thank you, guys.

The bird flu has farmers scrambling to try and protect their poultry stocks across the United States. And, of course, it's not just affecting farmers; it's also affecting you, sending the price of eggs soaring.

CNN's Jason Carroll traveled to a small farm in rural New York to see what poultry farmers are being forced to do to try and save their farms and their livestock.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM WARREN, OWNER, STONE & THISTLE FARM: So these are our 2-year-old birds that are out here in a winter house, and they're venturing outside today.

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): Farmers like Tom Warren have been keeping a more watchful eye on their chickens these days.

WARREN: We'll just have to see what happens.

CARROLL: OK.

WARREN: It's kind of what we're going to do.

CARROLL: All right.

WARREN: And hope for the best.

CARROLL (voiceover): Warren owns Stone and Thistle Farm, a small farm located in the foothills of the Catskill Mountains, more than a three- hour drive from New York City. But with the threat of avian flu, the city seems closer than ever.

New York's governor temporarily shut down live poultry markets in New York City, Long Island, and Westchester County as a precautionary measure after several cases of bird flu were recently discovered.

GOV. KATHY HOCHUL, (D) NEW YORK: Over the last week, inspectors have detected seven cases of bird flu in poultry. CARROLL (voiceover): Cases of bird flu were also found at the Queen Zoo, and possible cases are under investigation at the Bronx Zoo. Last month, a commercial duck farm in Long Island was forced to euthanize more than 100,000 ducks after a bird flu outbreak hit the facility to prevent further spread.

While birds are the likely source of the avian flu on farms, it's a big concern for small farmers, such as Warren, whose livestock and poultry are partially raised outside where they have free range to roam.

WARREN: We just hope, I mean, for us, it's mostly we can do a few things to prevent or reduce the risk hazard.

CARROLL: What can you do?

WARREN: Well, we -- like I said, we keep our feeders indoors so that deters wild birds from coming down into the place.

CARROLL: You're very pragmatic about the whole thing.

WARREN: Getting agitated about it isn't going to benefit me --

CARROLL: Um-hum.

WARREN: -- or the chickens --

CARROLL: Yeah.

WARREN: -- or the farm business, so we take as many precautions as we can.

CARROLL (voiceover): Precautions, such as no one permitted on the farm if they've been to another farm, own a bird, or have had contact with birds. It's why we did Daniel Brey's interview over Zoom.

DANIEL BREY, OWNER, BREY'S EGG FARM: You can't see it, smell it, or, you know, you have no idea where the bird flu is until it's too late. Yes, I am afraid.

CARROLL (voiceover): Brey is a third-generation poultry farmer who has dodged avian flu outbreaks in 2014 and 2022. He says an outbreak could be financially devastating for small farms like his and Warren's.

BREY: It's like a death sentence, you know. You lose your cut, or you lose -- you don't have any eggs for three to four months at least. It's a nightmare, but it basically puts you out of business -- a smaller farm.

CARROLL: Is that something that you could survive if you had to shut down for that period?

WARREN: Yes, I'm going to survive. It's the chickens that aren't going to survive.

[07:45:00]

CARROLL: OK.

WARREN: But, no -- but it would be difficult. It would hurt our business astronomically.

CARROLL (voiceover): His message to consumers during all this, poultry and eggs remain safe when prepared properly.

WARREN: Here, would you like to hold her?

CARROLL: Uh, no.

WARREN: No?

CARROLL (voiceover): Warren says his eggs and chickens are selling, and his well-trained dogs help keep the wild birds at bay for now.

WARREN: It's probably unlikely that we would contract it but it's still a crapshoot. I mean, we -- there's a limit to what we can do to control it.

CARROLL: What do you think your odds are?

WARREN: I'm not much of a betting man, so --

CARROLL: OK. OK.

WARREN: -- I have no idea what our odds are. I mean, we've managed to get through a couple of years with avian influenza around without any problems, and we kind of just hope that we'll make it through a couple more years, and then I'm going to retire.

CARROLL (voiceover): Jason Carroll, CNN, East Meredith, New York.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

BERMAN: So "Who is really calling the shots?" That's the question from one foreign official this morning as allies are beginning to wonder which statements from U.S. officials they can trust and who is really in charge.

And more than 100 fishermen were rescued after getting stranded on a chunk of ice. Why some of them did not want to be saved.

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[07:51:00]

BOLDUAN: Defense Sec. Pete Hegseth is in Brussels this morning meeting with NATO and EU counterparts. The topic, the war in Ukraine. The message he's expected to push for Europe to take on a bigger role in supporting Ukraine in its fight against Russia.

One NATO official telling CNN that allies are really waiting to see what Hegseth requests behind closed doors while others appear wary of any statement that does not come from President Trump himself, prompting one official to ask, "Who is really calling the shots?"

Let's get to CNN's Natasha Bertrand who is in Belgium following all of this and traveling where the -- where the Defense secretary is this morning. Natasha, what are you hearing about all of this?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: We are just getting word in Kate that Sec. Hegseth did just have his very first meeting with his Ukrainian counterpart Rustem Umerov here at NATO headquarters just ahead of the Ukraine defense contact group, which is that forum that coordinates military assistance to Ukraine amongst roughly 50 countries.

And it's really significant that they met here on the sidelines because again, this is their first meeting. It is still completely unclear whether during this forum today Pete Hegseth is going to commit additional U.S. aid to Ukraine.

And I should also note just the stark difference that we are seeing between the meeting that Hegseth had with Umerov and the meeting that Umerov had with the U.K. defense minister. In that meeting the readout was very effusive. Umerov said that the U.K. was a strategic ally. He posted a photo of them shaking hands.

The readout that we got from Umerov and the defense minister following the meeting with Pete Hegseth was much more brief. It was a single sentence. It said that it was his first meeting with the new Secretary of Defense. And he posted a photo of them kind of just standing side- by-side, not shaking hands.

So you already kind of get a sense that the U.K. appears to be kind of supplanting the U.S. here in terms of who is the -- who is Ukraine's biggest Western ally at this moment.

The forum here today that is coordinating all of that military aid -- that is going to be chaired by the U.K. and not by the U.S. for the very first time since that forum was founded.

So all of this together really paints the picture of the U.S. wants to step back here and they want Europe and NATO to step forward. They want them to spend more money. That is something that Pete Hegseth is expected to be telling allies here today, and they want them to provide more military assistance to the Ukrainians.

The Ukrainians -- they are getting the message here. They are, of course, trying to speak more with their European and NATO counterparts. But at the same time they're extremely wary of this. And Ukrainian President Zelenskyy has said many times that while he, of course, appreciates his European allies and he appreciates their willingness to provide some kind of security assurances to the Ukrainians during this brutal war, nothing can really replace American leadership.

And so it's going to be very interesting to hear from Hegseth in just about an hour or so when he gives opening remarks here at this forum about channeling all of that military aid to the Ukrainians, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Yeah.

It's great to see you. Glad you're there. We'll be listening in to see what the secretary of defense has to say this morning. Natasha, thank you -- Sara.

SIDNER: All right. Joining us now to discuss CNN political and national security analyst David Sanger. Thank you so much for being here.

Let's start with what is happening where Pete Hegseth is meeting with some of his European counterparts. President Trump said that he could end the war in Ukraine in a day. But instead of doing that, what are you seeing happening here as Hegseth meets with these European leaders?

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST, WHITE HOUSE AND NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES (via Webex by Cisco): Well, what we're seeing, as you saw from Natasha's report, is this beginning set of opening (INAUDIBLE) where Hegseth, who obviously was a great critic of the U.S. support doesn't want to get too far out ahead of President Trump because they're all aware that the policy can shift overnight on a Trump declaration.

[07:55:00]

Mr. Hegseth nor Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State, seem to have been consulted with the declaration a few days ago that the United States was going to take Gaza. So if that's the case you can imagine their concern here.

At the same time, there's been a hostage release, which is a piece of terrific news. There's clearly a lot of behind-the-scenes conversation underway with the Russians. And the question is what kind of deal would this look like and would there a be a real security guarantee for the Ukrainians if Russia decided to pause for a few years and then pick up the war?

SIDNER: There was something else very concerning to the Ukrainians -- for certain those who have been dealing with this war and living and dying in it -- where Trump said look, Ukraine could become Russian. So there are a lot of -- a lot of concerns as they are listening to some of the language and watching what is happening in these meetings.

You just mentioned this and so I want to jump on this. In front of the King of Jordan, Trump once again doubled down -- tripled down, saying that the U.S. will take over Gaza. And then a reporter asked an important question. Here is Donald Trump's response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: There is nothing to buy. It's Gaza. It's a war-torn area. We're going to take it. We're going to hold it. We're going to cherish it.

REPORTER: And Mr. President, take it under what authority? It is sovereign territory.

TRUMP: Under the U.S. authority.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: What is he talking about under the U.S. authority? What is he talking about?

SANGER: I have no idea. It is -- you know, there's argument about whether or not this is Palestinian land, Israeli land -- but until last week nobody was ever discussing that it was U.S. territory.

And, you know, one of the strange things that we sort of did not have on our -- on our -- in our playing cards for the Trump second term was this sort of territorial interest expansion and ambition.

Now, I understand why he might want control of the Panama Canal, which at least there's a historical link to the United States. I can understand the security reasons that he might be interested in control over Greenland even though the U.S. has no territorial claim there.

I'm befuddled, Sara -- and I've been doing this stuff for a few years -- by why the United States would want to own the problem in Gaza. And he has not really explained this, and we can't get an explanation out of his foreign -- his national security staff.

Now, I'm in Paris right now with Vice President Vance and they certainly have not touched the subject. He was here for an artificial intelligence summit.

But we're certainly not getting any explanation of the legal basis of this from the administration.

SIDNER: I do want to sort of further ask you because part of the plan, he has said, is to take Gaza and then move out the two million- some Palestinians who call Gaza their home and homeland.

And I just want to take a moment to read the Oxford Dictionary's definition of ethnic cleansing. "The mass expulsion or killing of members of an unwanted ethnic or religious group in a society."

Doesn't what Trump is suggesting fall into the definition potentially of this?

SANGER: Potentially, it does and potentially, it also violates the Geneva Conventions, which the United States is a signatory to, which bans the movement of -- the involuntary movement of large numbers or entire populations.

Now, it's interesting because after his initial statement reporters asked the new press secretary whether or not this would be a permanent move. And she said no, no, no. The president meant only temporarily. And then yesterday he said no, they do not have a right to return.

So we have not even seen a description of what he plans. His explanation is they will so like their housing in their new homes, which he says -- suggested would be in Jordan and Egypt -- that they won't want to come back. But he also seemed to suggest they wouldn't have a right to come back, and I think that may run into the core of the resistance.

SIDNER: Yeah. And we know that Jordan has already responded that they are not welcoming the idea of having Palestinians move to their territories. They already have even after.

SANGER: Even after the King sat there, yeah.

SIDNER: That's right.

SANGER: Yeah.

SIDNER: All right, David Sanger. Thank you so much for joining us from your trip there with the vice president.

SANGER: Great to be here.

SIDNER: John.

BERMAN: All right. Word this morning that NASA astronauts Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams may come home sooner than expected.