Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Elon Musk Takes Questions in Oval Office about Department of Government Efficiency Investigations; Rep. Adam Smith (D-WA) Interviewed on Lack of Transparency regarding Department of Government Efficiency Operations and Negative Effects of Ending USAID Programs. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired February 12, 2025 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you so much for joining us from your trip there with the vice president. John?

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, word this morning that NASA astronauts Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams may come home sooner than expected, although that's all relative because they were initially supposed to come home last summer before there were issues with their Boeing spacecraft. Now, because there have been some switches and schedules, they could come back in early March, a couple of weeks earlier than planned.

More than 100 fishermen had to be rescued after a crack formed on a large chunk of ice that they were fishing on. The men began drifting out to sea in remote waters between Russia and Japan before a helicopter was able to land and rescue them. Not everyone wanted to be saved, though. Crews said some of the more extreme fishermen refused to leave before making a catch.

And this morning, a new chapter in one of the most shameful streaks in the history of competition. For the 119th straight time, a golden retriever did not win best in show at the Westminster Dog Show. A golden lab, they've never won this celebration of inbreeding, not ever. The champion this year was a nepo baby named Monty. He was the first giant schnauzer to win, but his father was runner up in 2018, spreading the wealth here. Monty's handler was crying, as was probably every mutt in the country. They're not even allowed in the best in show competition.

A new hour of CNN NEWS CENTRAL starts now.

SIDNER: A show of power in the Oval Office. First buddy Elon Musk holding court alongside President Trump, touting transparency as they slash the federal government workforce and some of its programs. But critics say transparency, what transparency? And what about those conflicts of interest?

Also, waking up at home, an American history teacher who the U.S. says was wrongfully detained in Russia is finally back on American soil. The warm welcome he received from the White House. And futures are mixed this morning minutes before the first inflation

report of 2025, a strong labor market accompanied with tariffs, and high egg prices. Which way will the report tip the scales? We will show that to you coming up.

I'm Sara Sidner with Kate Bolduan and John Berman. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

BERMAN: This morning, the fallout after an unusual Oval Office news conference from the man that some critics say is in charge, the man who is not the president standing over the president. Elon Musk admits that he has said things that are not true, but basically claimed no harm, no foul.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELON MUSK, CEO OF TESLA AND SpaceX, OWNER OF X: Some of the things that I say will be incorrect and should be corrected. So nobody's going to bat 1,000. I mean, any -- we will make mistakes, but we'll act quickly to correct any mistakes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So this real life image of Musk next to the Resolute Desk came after a "Time" magazine of sketch, "Time" magazine sketch of Musk sitting behind it.

CNN's Alayna Treene is at the White House for the latest this morning. So how does the White House feel that that sent, Alayna?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: I think they think it went well, from my conversations with White House officials and Trump administration officials. And I do think -- I'm glad you showed that "Time" magazine cover, because it was such a striking image to see after that, having Elon Musk stand at this point beside the Resolute Desk next to the president, who is behind the Resolute Desk, and then really having President Trump allow him to take questions, or permitting him, I should say, to take questions for roughly 30 minutes.

I'd also point out that this was really the first time we've had Musk take questions, certainly at length, not only since the election, but since he's been given this purview of looking for fraud and waste and abuse within the federal government. And so definitely something that I found very interesting.

And one thing as well is it seemed like that was almost a spur of the moment, surprising thing. But when I talked to one White House official, they actually told me this on Monday, a day before this happened, that they were planning to have Musk be there for the signing of some of these DOGE related executive orders. And really, the point of this was to kind of pull back some of the mystique that has been surrounding both Musk but also DOGE.

Now, another thing, I think really, that the whole point of this was about was trying to get him to answer some questions about accountability, about the unchecked power that he has, particularly given that he is an unelected official. We know really every day on Capitol Hill, reporters are getting asked questions about what DOGE is doing, about whether or not he has too much influence for someone who was not elected into office. So all of that really, I think, trying to get him to answer questions around this, particularly as you have a lot of the courts and the judicial branch digging into and trying to challenge some of what the Department of Government Efficiency is doing.

But, John, I really think one of the most interesting moments of all of that yesterday, of that session, was when Elon Musk started talking about transparency.

[08:05:00]

He said that he was calling for maximal transparency. Take a listen to how he put it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELON MUSK, CEO OF TESLA AND SPACEX, OWNER OF X: All of our actions are maximally transparent. In fact, I don't think there's been, I don't know of a case where an organization has been more transparent than the DOGE organization.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: Now, John, he also said, quote, "transparency is what build builds trust," insisted that all of his team's efforts were being transparent, that they were putting and publicizing what they've been doing on social media accounts, on the DOGE website.

But look, I think one of the key questions, of course, is really, what could that transparency look like in practice? Because so far we haven't seen a lot of transparency as it relates to some of what DOGE has been doing. A lot of what we've learned of what they've been doing has come from sources inside these different agencies who are being affected by these cuts or what the policies that they're trying to implement and telling reporters like us about it. And so there's definitely still a ton of questions about accountability, about learning what they are doing. Even some White House officials I know on a day-to-day basis don't exactly know what he's doing. So all of that, I think, still some unanswered questions that well be looking for. John?

BERMAN: White House officials say they don't know what they're doing. The people being impacted in these agencies often don't know what they're doing or don't know whether they're supposed to go to work on a given day. Alayna Treene at the White House, thank you very much.

Kate?

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: And joining us right now to talk more about this is Democratic Congressman Adam Smith of Washington. He is the top Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee. It's good to see you again, Congressman. I want to get your take on Elon Musk and what, some of what Elon Musk said in that impromptu press conference and what he said he found.

One of the things that he said is at USAID, he says that he found some officials had been taking kickbacks. Quite a few people, he said, had managed to accrue tens of millions of dollars in net worth while they are in that position. Also, as you heard there, claiming that they are maximally transparent. What do you think of that? Have you guys received any documentation or any, I don't know, any word of any of this fraud he's accusing them of finding?

REP. ADAM SMITH, (D-WA): Look, its unbelievably dishonest and also, I guess, fiendishly clever. Just say you're transparent and assume people will believe it. There's no evidence of transparency, and you've outlined a lot of it in your reporting leading up to this. But yes, he makes these bald statements that are not supported by any facts. There is literally no factual evidence presented of anyone at USAID making tens of millions of dollars. So if he has it, he should produce it. Saying it and not producing it is the exact opposite of transparency.

Meanwhile, programs all across the world are shut down. Literally people are starving to death because they've shut down programs that we committed to. We made a commitment to give a certain amount of money for, you know, programs in Sudan and elsewhere that he just shut down without any notice to anybody, breaking a contract, breaking the law, because the U.S. Congress and the previous president had signed it into law, and having a devastating impact on individuals.

And then just the cruelty of it. You have USAID employees stranded all over the world, just suddenly cut off with no help. There's nothing transparent about this process right now. But, you know, the sheriff in the Oval Office can say we are the most transparent thing in the world, and we're all supposed to go, well, he wouldn't say that if it wasn't true, would he? Yes, he would.

BOLDUAN: There's also him being an unelected, bureaucratic-like official now going after unelected bureaucrats who he says has more have more power than you as an elected lawmaker. Let me play this for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MUSK: We have this unelected, fourth, unconstitutional branch of government, which is the bureaucracy, which has, in a lot of ways, currently more power than any elected representative. And this is a -- this is not something that people want. And it's not -- it does not match the will of the people. So it's just something we've got to fix.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: He says that it's something he has to fix. What is the role that you think Democrats and, frankly, Republicans in Congress should have as DOGE is steamrolling through, and President Trump just signed an executive order giving him more power?

SMITH: Yes, I think part of the role is to be honest with the American people. And what Elon Musk just said there is just flat a lie. It is the executive branch of the government. Those bureaucrats that he's talking about are under the control of the president of the United States, and they're under control of the various departments in which they are assigned. President was elected. Our job in Congress is to pass the laws that govern their actions. It is all very constitutional.

And if President Trump disagrees with where they're spending money or disagrees with those departments, then he can follow the law and pass legislation to change it. Or in some cases, he has control over the agencies.

[08:10:00]

He can't just unilaterally block programs that Congress has passed. Congress has control of the purse. I think even people who aren't constitutional scholars understand that. So he is disregarding Congress. In some cases, he's disregarding the courts. The courts have issued orders blocking them from cutting off any domestic programs. Those domestic programs are still being cut off. So what Elon Musk is doing is he's disregarding the Constitution and ignoring the legislative branch and ignoring the judicial branch. And that's not transparent and it's not legal.

Again, if we want to have a debate about going forward, what should we spend on USAID? I think there are some programs in USAID that probably don't make sense. Fine. Let's talk about those. But you can't just come in and ignore the law and wipe out programs that have been passed by Congress. That's what they're doing, and they're not doing it transparently.

BOLDUAN: I'm very curious what this means for the Pentagon, because, and that's obviously, this is the department you have oversight over. The defense secretary has told "Axios" that he plans to welcome Elon Musk and the, quote unquote, keen eye of DOGE in to scrutinize Pentagon spending very soon. And Donald Trump has said that he wants to send Elon Musk over to look at the military. Do you have a sense of what that is going to mean for the department you have spent years supporting and having oversight over?

SMITH: Well, nobody knows for sure, because with each department they've targeted, they've come at it with a meat ax. I mean, on the domestic side, there's some programs out in the state of Washington have seen their funds cut off. One is a program for wildfire prevention. There's a Lutheran Organization that has been targeted because, I can't even remember what the conspiracy theory was, why they were problematic.

So the answer is, when he goes to the Pentagon, we don't know exactly what's going to happen. And look, government efficiency and effectiveness, we can definitely get better. And look, if you want to go into the Pentagon and try to fix the requirements process and the acquisition process so we buy things more quickly, more effectively, and more intelligently, I think that's great.

But also, and I hadn't even mentioned this part, a lot of what they're doing is targeting people that just have been critical of Trump. We've seen that with the cutting off of security protection for Mark Esper and Mark Milley and others. So will he go into the Pentagon and simply try to fire anyone who said anything bad about Trump? Or will he go into the Pentagon and try to make it more efficient and more effective? We don't know. And as you've pointed out, there's no transparency on this. We're just going to find out as it happens. And that is against our constitutional democracy.

BOLDUAN: And when it comes -- and when it comes to the funding of the military, I can't think of anything more dangerous than not knowing, not having, and just taking a meat ax to it.

SMITH: Well, sorry, but one thing more dangerous would be cutting off food for starving people, which is what were doing by shutting down USAID programs.

BOLDUAN: Yes. Congressman Adam Smith, thank you for coming in.

Sara?

SIDNER: All right, ahead, American teacher Marc Fogel has been released from a Russian prison in exchange for an unknown Russian citizen. What we've learned about this deal and the potential release of another American detainee in Russia today.

Plus, flu cases are surging into the millions as this flu season is on track to be the most severe in more than a decade. We're paging Dr. Gupta to try and keep you safe. That's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:17:36]

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: The first of what is now expected to be at least two American detainees arrived back on US soil last night.

The remarkable moment happening outside the White House. An American teacher, Marc Fogel, was greeted by President Trump after spending three years in a Russian prison.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARC FOGEL AMERICAN FREED FROM WRONGFUL DETENTION IN RUSSIA: It's very difficult to articulate how proud I am of you and how proud I am and what you've done and being back in my country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: A White House official told CNN last night, another American will be coming in today. Beyond those details, they say it will be a surprise.

The White House also so far vague on how this deal to free Fogel came together and who or what Russia is actually getting in return.

CNN's Jennifer Hansler has more on this story. What are you learning Russia has said it was in exchange, as what has happened with far many presidents over the years? What are you hearing about how this all went down?

JENNIFER HANSLER, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT PRODUCER: Well, Sara, both sides are being incredibly tight lipped on the details here of this exchange. We know broadly that this was negotiated by President Trump and his Special Envoy for the Middle East, Steve Witkoff.

Witkoff himself flew to Russia yesterday to retrieve Marc Fogel. But in terms of the details of who or what Russia is getting in this exchange, we don't really know at this point.

President Trump was repeatedly asked last night when he welcomed Fogel to the White House, he indicated he would give more details today, but was mostly tight-lipped on what exactly happened here.

His pick for special envoy for hostage affairs, Adam Boehler told CNN last night that this was a nonviolent person, but he again didn't give many details. Take a listen here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ADAM BOEHLER, US SPECIAL ENVOY FOR HOSTAGE AFFAIRS: This was a unilateral decision. It means, for us, we make and give thoughts to other people that are nonviolent from a Russia perspective.

And so, it means the president is open to things now because this was a first step one way or the other.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HANSLER: And, Sara, we heard from the Kremlin this morning saying they are expecting a Russian citizen who had been held in US custody to be released in the coming days. They also would not divulge the identity until this person is back on Russian soil.

But of course, all of this is a major departure from the exchanges we've seen over the past few years under the Biden administration, where we had this very tightly coordinated, synchronized exchange in a third country, almost the bridge of skies happening across the tarmac there.

We have yet to see many details, anything about also who is coming out today. We said -- and we are told that we will many details once this is finally happened, once that second American is out of custody, wherever this person is. But a lot remains uncertain here.

But at the same time, Sara, the one thing that is clear is that Marc Fogel is happy to be home and he will be starting his journey towards re-acclimation, towards resuming his normal life after three years in Russian detention there -- Sara.

[08:20:39]

SIDNER: Yes, there's still a lot of questions about how it happened. We know Donald Trump has criticized other presidents for the way they exchanged and who they exchanged for.

But the one thing that we know is, the family doesn't care how it happened. They are glad to see Fogel back home.

Jennifer Hansler, thank you so much.

And just a programming note here, we will be speaking to envoy, Steve Witkoff here on CNN NEWS CENTRAL. In just a few moments, John Berman will be speaking to him ahead -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: Elon Musk taking questions for the first time since launching DOGE, admits he said things that aren't true about the very programs he is cutting, and he's still cutting them. What he is targeting next and the additional powers of the president just gave him.

And it is a battle over immigration enforcement and the First Amendment. More than two dozen faith groups are suing the Trump administration, fighting to keep ICE out of houses of worship.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:25:34]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: So, this morning, Elon Musk is promising transparency as his effort continues to try to gut the federal government.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELON MUSK, DIRECTOR, DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY: All of our actions are fully public. So, if you see anything, like wait a second, hey that, you know, there's a conflict there. I felt like people are going to be shy about saying that. They'll say it immediately, you know.

REPORTER: Including yourself --

MUSK: Yes, Transparency is what builds trust, not simply somebody asserting trust, not somebody saying they're trustworthy, but transparency. So, you can see everything that's going on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Now, attorneys are now suing to block Musk and his teams from gaining access to sensitive government data. One of those attorneys is our friend, Norm Eisen. He is with us this morning.

Ambassador, thank you so much for being with us.

You heard Elon Musk here say that he doesn't think anyone is more transparent than his team. How transparent do you think they are?

NORM EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: About as transparent, John, as a locked vault door or a moonless night. Elon Musk, has as great business interests as, anyone ever to have these extraordinary powers, even greater than Donald Trump's. Where is his financial disclosure form? Can we see it? There's no transparency there. What is he doing to control his conflicts of interest, where his businesses are being regulated or even investigated by the very government agencies he's cutting?

What protections are in place? No transparency there. Does he have waivers? There's legal limits on this, John. Does he have waivers from the administration? Well, we don't know that, no transparency there. Has he been recused stepping away? So it's not transparent. It's the opposite of transparency, it's opacity.

And it is profoundly dangerous for the American government, which is why we've been getting our court orders like the one blocking Musk out of the Treasury Department systems. He has no business there.

BERMAN: Insofar as his disclosures, he is a temporary, unpaid government worker, which I guess means that we never actually have to see his financial disclosure. And in terms of the conflict of interest with his businesses, this is how he responded to that. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Does that present a conflict of interest for you?

MUSK: No, because you'd have to look at the individual contract and say, first of all, I'm not the one, you know, filing the contract, it is the people at SpaceX or something that will be putting forth the contract.

And I'd like to say, if you see any contract where the where it was awarded to SpaceX and it wasn't by far the best value for money for the taxpayer, let me know, because every one of them was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So he's not filing the paperwork for the contract, so there's no conflict?

EISEN: Does he also fly every rocket up into space?

John, it's a business -- SpaceX, Tesla, X, his social media platform -- these are businesses and he has a financial interest in the business.

When somebody has a financial interest in a business, that creates a potential conflict. We don't know if there's a conflict of interest or not because there's been no transparency. We don't have the financial disclosure forms. We don't have the waiver forms, if any. We don't know if he's recused, that he has stepped away.

His DOGE crew is operating, they come in the dark of night. We don't know what they're doing.

And he's not just a special government employee. He may be the single most powerful government official in addition to or even beyond President Trump in this administration. And under the Constitution, that means that he needs to follow the law. He needs to follow the rules, and it has to start with transparency. And there's questions about whether -- serious constitutional questions about whether somebody with this power can even be called a special government employee. So, it's problematic from top to bottom.

BERMAN: Ambassador Norm Eisen, thanks so much for being with us. getting some new information now about the release of American, Marc Fogel from Russia. We'll be right back.

[08:30:27]