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Musk Defends DOGE Cuts; Steve Witkoff is Interviewed about the Fogel Release; Answers to Questions about the Flu; Rev. Sean Rowe is Interviewed about ICE Raids. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired February 12, 2025 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

NORM EISEN, SENIOR FELLOW, BROOKINGS: He needs to follow the rules and it has to start with transparency. And there's questions about whether - serious constitutional questions about whether somebody with this power can even be called a special government employee. So, it's problematic from top to bottom.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Ambassador Norm Eisen, thanks so much for being with us.

We're getting some new information now about the release of American Marc Fogel from Russia.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Elon Musk in the Oval Office, right next to standing over almost President Donald Trump, talking about maximum transparency that he says is happening with his DOGE government efficiency effort.

Listen to this.

[08:35:02]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELON MUSK, CEO OF TESLA AND SPACEX AND OWNER OF X: All of our actions are fully public. So, if you see anything, you say, like, wait a second, hey, you know, if that doesn't - that seems like maybe that's, you know, there's a conflict there. It's not like people are going to be shy about saying that. They'll say it immediately, you know.

REPORTER: Including you yourself?

MUSK: Yes. But it's - it - what - transparency is what builds trust, not simply somebody asserting trust. It's not somebody saying they're trustworthy, but transparency, so you can see everything that's going on.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BOLDUAN: Joining us right now, CNN political commentators Paul Begala and Scott Jennings.

Paul, we just had Democratic Congressman Adam Smith on. And in playing - and in playing that for him he said that that is just a bold-faced lie. I mean the facts are that they have not been maximally transparent. You call that Oval Office press conference yesterday surreal. But what of it?

PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, it was. I mean, first off, just the optics. The president of the United States, Donald Trump, was sitting. His supposed aide, Mr. Musk, was standing. Trump's literally looking up at him. I've never seen Trump so deferential. Well, once, when he was with Putin.

So, this is a weird dynamic where Trump seems to really be happy to hand off power to this guy. And I suppose that's fine.

But my bigger problem was the talk about fraud and corruption. Donald Trump's only experience with fraud is committing it. He's a convicted felon for committing fraud. Business records fraud. And so, he doesn't give a rip snort about fraud. Give me a break. If you care about fraud, if you care about corruption, you don't fire the inspectors general, right? These are folks who have saved the taxpayers $70 billion a year in waste, fraud, and abuse. You don't fire the head of the Office of Government Ethics if you care about fraud and ethics. You don't gut the FBI, you don't cripple the Department of Justice. You don't close the Consumer Financial Protection Board, which saves taxpayers and consumers billions and billions of dollars.

So, this is - it's a - the fraud here is them saying they're going after corruption. This is all about transferring wealth from the working class to the billionaire class. It's government of the billionaires, by the billionaires and for the billionaires. That's really what's going on here.

BOLDUAN: Given that, what did you - what did you think of that press conference, Scott?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look, I - Elon Musk, who doesn't need to do this, has, you know, he could be doing anything else. He's got companies. He's the richest guy in the world. Has - has -

BOLDUAN: Yes, Musk (ph) don't need to do this. It's not like -

JENNINGS: Has - has decided to give his own time to a government of a country that he loves, that has given him all this opportunity. I take him at his word that he wants to be transparent, that he invites transparency. Obviously, everybody in the English-speaking world media is looking into him every single day. I would have no fear if I were him about Congress -

BOLDUAN: But he hasn't -

JENNINGS: About Congress asking questions and looking into it. BOLDUAN: But he hasn't been - by - by the -

JENNINGS: I think - I think they are -

BOLDUAN: But the definition of it is he's not been on the front end of this so far. He has not been transparent. I mean, maybe - there may be, they - if they have -

JENNINGS: Well, they're - they are making routine announcements about the things they are finding, and they are inviting questions about the things they are finding every single day.

BOLDUAN: But by definition he's not being transparent. They're not - they're - there are not providing data for the things that they say they have found evidence of. They just aren't. There is -

JENNINGS: Well, I mean, they're - the White House has provided -

BOLDUAN: You can make announcements.

JENNINGS: Sure.

BOLDUAN: And he also did admit that he actually -

JENNINGS: So, you just don't believe it. I mean, they are -

BOLDUAN: No, no, no, no.

JENNINGS: They are providing information. You just choose not to believe that it's true.

BOLDUAN: I don't think - I don't think anyone should just believe that it's true. Do you think that people have taken kickbacks of tens of millions of dollars from USAID?

JENNINGS: Here's what I think.

BOLDUAN: Do you believe that?

JENNINGS: I think every year -

BOLDUAN: No, but don't accuse me of just like -

JENNINGS: I'm just - I'm just asking you, do you - do you believe that there is any level of fraud - waste, fraud and abuse in the government?

BOLDUAN: No, no, no, that's not what you're asking me. And I'm going to ask the questions. Don't accuse me of just like -

JENNINGS: And so - and so, if you believe that, do you believe that it's possible that they are finding and producing information about it? Of course they are.

BOLDUAN: That wasn't my question.

JENNINGS: What -

BOLDUAN: My question was, by definition they're not being transparent. My - they can continue to be successful and -

JENNINGS: What do you want - what do you want them to do?

BOLDUAN: Provide data if they're firing - if they - providing data that they have found people - everyone would want to know if someone has received kickbacks to the tune of tens of millions of dollars.

JENNINGS: I don't disagree with you. I love the idea of data. I love the announcements. I love them putting out regular reports of what they're doing.

BOLDUAN: Yes, but they have not.

JENNINGS: And I - and I love the idea of Congress also bringing them up to report to Congress on what they're finding, because ultimately Congress needs to be engaged in this as well. I have no problem with that, and I don't think they do either. And that's what I heard in his press conference yesterday.

BOLDUAN: OK.

The way things are going, Paul, if - even if Elon Musk would drop a claim of transparency, and even if Elon Musk would just tell you I'm not going to even invite transparency, and it's just going to be the way that it's going to be, I mean what - what is that going to change? Because the way it is going is DOGE is moving forward. Donald Trump is supporting it. Donald Trump is giving him more power. And Democrats do seem to be caught flat footed by everything that's coming through.

BEGALA: Well, Democrats aren't in charge. Republicans are in charge. And the Congress of the United States, which the founders made Article One and gave them the power of the purse.

[08:40:00]

The Republicans who run the Congress have ceded that power, unconstitutionally, to an unelected, conflicted billionaire, and to - and to - and to Mr. Trump as well, our duly elected president. That's the problem here.

If you want to cut federal spending, believe me, right behind me, I got a copy of a balanced budget I helped Bill Clinton write. OK, we cut, President Clinton, reduced the federal workforce by 351,000 people. Trump actually increased it. How did we do it? The old- fashioned way. The constitutional way. We went to the Congress. We passed the Federal Workforce Restructuring Act of 1994. We had buyouts. We had - but we had a process where experts were doing it and where the Congress was writing a law that the executive was obeying.

Now you have a guy, Mr. Musk, the richest man in the world, Scott says, I'm sure he is, he got rich off of the viewers of this program who pay their taxes. You remember Solyndra, when Scott and his buddies, when Obama was president, were squealing like a pig stuck under a gate because Obama had subsidized a solar company. That same program subsidized Tesla. $465 million of your mama's tax money going to Mr. Musk.

BOLDUAN: Let me - let me -

BEGALA: Now, he paid it back. It was a good deal.

BOLDUAN: Let me get to something -

BEGALA: But he got rich off the federal government.

BOLDUAN: Let me get to something -

BEGALA: He wants to be even richer off the federal government.

BOLDUAN: Let me get to something more right now, which is Republicans appear uneasy with DOGE, Scott, and how Musk is going about it so far. Annie Grayer has done some great reporting, speaking to a whole bunch of Republicans who went on the record to say, Don Bacon said on the shutting down USAID, "instead of getting rid of everything, let's look at it selectively. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater." Blake Moore on firing federal workers, "we need to do a better job of bringing them in instead of vilifying them." Bill Cassidy on NIH funding, "I'm in active conversations with folks back home, and it's an issue." Unnamed - an unnamed Republican lawmakers saying, "if this was a Democratic administration with the same things happening, people would be lit up about it."

Do these people have a - have valid points?

JENNINGS: Sure. I mean, look, I think any member of Congress should be asking questions about this. It's their right to do that. It's their job to do that. On Don Bacon's point, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater on USAID. Marco Rubio agrees. He has made numerous statements that he supports U.S. foreign aid, that he's going to continue to do that, but we're not going to continue to spend the money on the projects that are patently, objectively ridiculous.

I think that's something that most voters would support. I do think the Trump administration ultimately will and should benefit from some engagement with Congress here. They have ideas about how to move fast and to get this under control, because that's what they think their political mandate is. They're not interested in waiting around because that's what most of the politicians do all the time, we wait, we wait, we wait, and then nothing happens. They're making things happen. Congress will catch up to them.

And ultimately, what's the goal? A smaller government that spends less, that spends more efficiently, and that doesn't send your tax dollars all over the world for patently ridiculous stuff, and a bureaucracy that doesn't have its boot on the throat of the American people or American business. That's a good outcome if we get there. Are they going to break a few eggs along the way? Probably. But I think they have the political leash to do it. I think that's what the election meant in November.

BOLDUAN: Scott, Paul, thank you so much.

John.

BERMAN: All right, the breaking news this morning, American teacher Marc Fogel is back in the United States, welcomed home by President Trump at the White House overnight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARC FOGEL, AMERICAN FREED FROM WRONGFUL DETENTION IN RUSSIAN: I feel like the luckiest man on earth right now. And I want you to know that I am not a hero in this at all. And President Trump is a hero.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: U.S. special envoy for the Middle East, Steve Witkoff, traveled to Moscow to help negotiate Fogel's release. And he joins us now.

Thank you for being with us, Mr. Witkoff.

How did it come to pass that you were on your jet to Moscow to secure the release of Marc Fogel?

STEVE WITKOFF, U.S. SPECIAL ENVOY TO THE MIDDLE EAST: Well, thank you for having me, John.

We - we had some reach out several days ago. People approached us, me and - me, and this case, and said that there might be an opportunity to get Marc Fogel out. I talked to the president, and his national security advisor, his chief of staff, Susie Wiles, and John Ratcliffe, and the president directed me to go over there and completed if we could. And that's - that's what happened. We ended up, thank God, with a good result.

BERMAN: Did you meet with Vladimir Putin?

WITKOFF: I don't - I don't want to talk about that right now. I - I think this should be much more about the president, what happened in the first two and a half weeks of his presidency, this opportunity. Marc languished there for three and a half years, and he shouldn't have. He should have been out, you know, before. But he's out now. His family is grateful. He is as happy a human being as you're going to find, as - as the country will find out. And he's extraordinarily to the president, our president, President Trump, and also to President Putin, and - and everybody else who played a role in this.

[08:45:01]

BERMAN: It is wonderful that - that he is home, and he was there for far too long. But why isn't it important whether or not you spoke to Vladimir Putin?

WITKOFF: I'm not - I'm not saying it's important or it's not important. I'm just saying it's just not something that I'm going to talk about right now. BERMAN: Who is being released in exchange? What is the identity of the

Russian individual in the United States, if there is one, that will be released?

WITKOFF: Well, I think whatever we're going to have - whatever is going to happen, we'll know it later today. And I guess there's been some hints at it. I'm not really familiar with it. But I'm sure we'll - we'll all know that soon.

BERMAN: Politico reporting it might be - might be Alexander Vinnik, who was a, I guess, they say, a Russian crypto guy who pled guilty to money laundering charges. Does that sound right to you?

WITKOFF: You know, it's not - it's not - that's not something I'm familiar with, so I - I don't want to comment.

BERMAN: Secretary of State Marco Rubio says it wouldn't be a one for one exchange. But if there is a Russian individual being released, isn't that a one for one exchange?

WITKOFF: Again, I'm not be - I'm not trying to be obstreperous with you. I'm just more saying that I'm familiar with what happened yesterday. I'm familiar with Marc Fogel and everything that he - all that we discussed on the plane. And that's what I'm - that's what I'm here to comment on. And I'm - I'm happy to tell you more, if that's what you want to talk about.

BERMAN: I - believe me, I'm asking a lot of questions about the Marc Fogel exchange, which I think is of extreme interest to the American people, especially because what it might mean going forward. Do you believe there will be more Americans released and in exchange for what?

WITKOFF: Well, John, I would say to you that the president's policy on Americans that are held abroad is that we leave nobody behind. It's very, very similar to the military credo, leave nobody back on the battlefield. And that's how he feels. And so, I think that you'll see a president who is extraordinarily proactive in seeking all hostages to be released, who are being held in foreign countries.

That's what Adam Boehler (ph) does. He's the special envoy for - in that sector. And I think you're beginning to see a lot of results. There are people who have been held for far too long, and they haven't - and people haven't paid attention to them in prior administrations. And that's not going to be the way that the Trump administration works. And that's at the direction of President Trump.

BERMAN: So, your day job in connection with the Trump administration is as special Middle East envoy. And yesterday, President Trump met with King Abdullah of Jordan. This is after saying that Jordan was going to accept Palestinians from Gaza. King Abdullah put out a statement after that meeting and said, "I reiterated Jordan's steadfast position against the displacement of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. This is the unified Arab position. Rebuilding Gaza without displacing the Palestinians and addressing the dire humanitarian situation should be the priority for all." So, why wasn't the president able to convince King Abdullah to accept

the Palestinians in a move that seems to be a key part of his plan to take ownership of Gaza?

WITKOFF: Well, you know, John, normally I would have been there, but I was on a plane with Marc Fogel, so that prevented me from being there. But I would say this, I would say that the president has been very clear. He cares about the Palestinian people. What he - what he - what he also cares about is that we don't repeat the same mistakes we've made for the last five decades.

So, we've rebuilt Gaza, destroyed it, rebuilt it, destroyed it. And I don't know how many times that's happened. And the president is focused on a much different and more cogent pathway. He believes in - in the Palestinian people having a better place to live, having hope and aspirations for a better life for them and their children. What every parent would want.

And going back to a place that's going to take anywhere between 10 and 20 years to successfully and correctly and efficiently redevelop it makes no sense at this point in time. That is his policy. And, candidly, I agree with it, and so do many responsible people. You would never - if there was this sort of destruction in any major city in the United States, no one would be allowed to cross the dividing line and go back in and - because it's - it's inherently dangerous there. There's unexploded munitions all over the place, dangerous latent conditions, and it's - it's -- it's - I was there. I went there personally to inspect. So, this is not secondhand information. I actually was in the tunnels. I've seen how much destruction there is. Something needs to be done, a different approach, and President Trump is focused on a different approach that will work.

BERMAN: Steve Witkoff, we appreciate you being with us.

[08:50:01]

Congratulations on the release of Marc Fogel. It is great to have him back in the United States.

Sara.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, breaking news. It's not good. Inflation has hit a 3 percent for the first time since June, pushing the cost of living higher. How President Trump is responding to this, this morning.

And 27 religious groups now taking the Trump administration to court over a fight of faith and immigration, challenging ISIS presence at their places of worship.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: So, right now, the flu season is in full swing and it is hitting Americans hard.

CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta is back with us today to answer all of your questions about the flu that we asked earlier this week.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.

BOLDUAN: Great to see you, Sanjay. Thank you so much.

Let's jump right into it.

Jeff from Arizona said he got vaccinated. He still got the flu. And his question then is, why can't we get a better match between the vaccine and the strains that are actually out there?

GUPTA: Yes, this is a common question. And one of the things to keep in mind is, when they're making the flu vaccine, they're sort of trying to predict what the flu is going to look like the following year. The flu virus, the ones that are predominantly circulating, that's constantly changing. So, there's some predictive sort of stuff that goes into this. And sometimes they get it closer to the matched strain versus other years.

Let me show you. We went back in time and sort of looked over the last several years at how effective the flu vaccine is. And you'll see, for example, 2010, it was close to 60 percent effective. That meant people were less likely to get sick, go to the ICU or die as a result of getting the flu vaccine. But in other years, you know, it's hovered as low as 29, 19 percent. Forty-two percent so far this year. So, it's going to be most effective for people who are at highest risk. But part of the issue is that there's, again, different strains circulating. So, this year, H1N1 and H3N2 are the predominant strains that are circulating. Seems to be more effective against that first one, H1N1.

[08:55:00]

But that's part of the problem, it's trying to predict what's going to be circulating in the future.

BOLDUAN: And then in the moment, we know this has already been a pretty intense flu season. Nancy asks, since the flu is still going around, should you get the flu shot if you have not already, or is that just - if you - or is it kind of like past the point of no return? What do you think?

GUPTA: No, it - you should. I mean here's one thing to keep in mind. People have different conceptions of sort of when the peak of flu season would be. So, let me take you back sort of to look at the - the most common months that you're going to see flu activity over the last 40 years. So, this is going back to 1982. You can take a look there. I mean, February, where we are now, that is the peak month for flu. So that's just something to keep in mind.

And again, this is going back, sort of giving you an average over 40 years. Get the flu vaccine. It takes about two weeks to develop those antibodies. So you're not protected right away. But, yes, there's still a lot of flu out there, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Sure is. And we're just starting to get into it. So, wash those hands and be very careful, everyone.

It's good to see you, Sanjay. Thank you so much, as always.

GUPTA: You got it. Thank you.

Sara.

SIDNER: All right, arguments begin tomorrow in federal court over whether President Trump's reversal of ISIS sensitive places policy should be paused. Before the change, immigration raids were kept out of places like churches, hospitals and schools. The hearing is one of nearly 30 lawsuits from Christian and Jewish groups that are suing the Trump administration to protect houses of worship from ICE raids.

Let's talk now more about this with presiding bishop of the episcopal church, Reverend Sean Rowe, who is part of one of those lawsuits.

First of all, thank you so much for coming on, Reverend.

Why did you join the lawsuit? Why was this important to you?

REV. SEAN ROWE, PRESIDING BISHOP OF THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH: Well, look, we joined this as a diverse, interfaith coalition held together by the belief that all people are made in the image of God and that freedom of religion is a basic human right. And it's certainly a right enshrined in the U.S. Constitution.

SIDNER: Let me ask you about this. Immigration was the second most important issue for Americans who were polled time and time again. And they voted Donald Trump into office with him saying he was going to do these massive sweeps and deportations.

What do you say to those Americans who say, look, anyone in the country who did not go through the legal channels should be sent out, even if that means going into churches, going into schools?

ROWE: Well, I would say that it's a basic constitutional right to have free exercise of religion. And if people are afraid to come to church, that's a problem. Our faith requires us to welcome the stranger. We're not commenting on immigration policy as much as we're saying, you can't target churches. And that's a pretty basic - that's a pretty basic right as - as an American. In fact, I find it - I find it unusual that we're even having this conversation. I actually find it almost outrageous that this is even news. This is basic religious freedom that we're talking about.

So, if people are afraid to exercise their religion and come to church, that's a problem in the United States. The rest of it I'll leave to the politicians and the policymakers.

SIDNER: Yes, you see this really as a constitutional, in some ways, crisis. One of - one of several that people have been talking about, that this is something of the separation of church and state, and that people should be able to practice their own religion when and how they please or wish to. I do want to ask you about that because Trump is trying to, at this

point, crush this special treatment of churches when it comes to immigration. But he's also signed this executive order to create what he's calling the White House Office of Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnership. What do you make of him creating a sort of religious office within the White House?

ROWE: Look, what I would say about - about all - about all of this is, what we're talking about here is not special treatment of churches. We're talking about the free exercise of religion. And our faith, it requires us to welcome the stranger. And I think if - if - if the president is interested in creating an office that helps us welcome all people and respect the dignity of all people, well, then - well then, I welcome that. But what we're not asking for is any - we're not asking for anything special here. We're asking for the ability to exercise our faith as Christians and as Jewish people as - as Islamic people, as whatever faith we hold and do that freely in this country.

SIDNER: Reverend, I know that you were - are the youngest top leader of the episcopal church in - since the 18th century. And you have talked about an existential - existential crisis.

[09:00:01]

And now you've joined this lawsuit because you - you truly believe this is something that goes against American principles.