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Ukraine's President Pushes Back After Trump-Putin Call; Senate Confirms RFK Jr As HHS Secretary; Senate Judiciary Cmte Advances Nomination Of Kash Patel To Lead FBI; "Lockerbie: The Bombing Of Pan Am 103" Premiers Sunday At 9PM. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired February 13, 2025 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[13:32:03]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: No deal unless Kyiv is involved. That is what Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is saying as he pushes back after President Trump said he and Russia's leader, Vladimir Putin, agreed to start negotiations to end the war on Ukraine.

Zelenskyy saying, quote, "As an independent country, we simply cannot accept any agreements without us. And I articulate this very clearly to our partners. We will not accept any bilateral negotiations on Ukraine without us."

The order of Trump's calls, first to Putin and then to Zelenskyy second, was, quote, "not pleasant," according to Zelenskyy.

Joining us now is Kurt Volker, former U.S. ambassador to NATO, who was also U.S. special representative for Ukraine negotiations during the first Trump administration.

So, Ambassador, you have Trump and Putin getting together to decide to move forward immediately with negotiations and then informing Zelenskyy. That is the word that Trump used. Is Zelenskyy right to see this as a slight?

KURT VOLKER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO NATO & FORMER U.S. SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE FOR UKRAINE NEGOTIATIONS: Well, I think it's a little too much too soon to say that. As we know, President Trump met with President Zelenskyy twice this autumn. They had a couple of phone calls as well.

At their press conference together in New York in September, then- president -- you know, Candidate Trump said that the first thing he would do is to call Putin.

And President Trump has recognized that the issue here is getting Putin to end the war. The Ukrainians are ready to end the war. They're ready to negotiate. It's the Russians, it's Putin who has not been.

So what President Trump, I think, is doing is getting Putin to the table. And I do think this is an important step. And even with the phone call that took place, he had prior -- he had

previously spoken with President Zelenskyy a few times and then immediately called him after speaking with President Putin.

So President Zelenskyy is right. You can't negotiate about Ukraine without Ukraine. But at the same time, I think what President Trump is doing is getting Putin to the table so he can actually get to that negotiation.

KEILAR: We've heard a lot from Defense Secretary Hegseth here in the last couple of days, as he's overseas meeting with European defense ministers about Ukraine.

He raised the possibility that future U.S. aid to Ukraine could be tied to its participation in peace talks. Was that the right move for him to say that out loud?

VOLKER: Well it's not necessary to say out loud. Ukraine is interested in participating in peace talks. That's exactly what we just heard from President Zelenskyy. So it's not as if it's a threat of any kind, because that's what Ukraine wants.

And I think the other things that Secretary Hegseth said, again, are more in the category of not saying anything new. Talking about it not being realistic for Ukraine to take back all of its territory.

This is something President Zelenskyy himself said back in January and December, saying that they know they can't do this militarily now, so they are prepared to accept a ceasefire and pursue the return of their territory by nonmilitary means.

[13:35:08]

So it's very consistent already with -- with what Hegseth has said and what Zelenskyy had previously said.

KEILAR: I think what Zelenskyy had said was more to the effect of the U.S. needs to get Russia diplomatically to a place where they can work out some of these details because he was not militarily able, or the Ukrainian forces were not at that point.

Hegseth takes these, potentially key -- and I hear what you're saying. Maybe he is saying out loud what folks know. But diplo speak is different than regular speak, and we're well aware of that.

He takes potentially key demands of Ukraine's, NATO membership, territorial claims off the table yesterday, then only to turn around and clarify today that actually everything is on the table when, yesterday, he taking things off the table.

And those are a series of moments that are - are clearly difficult for Ukraine. How does that do anything but undermine Ukraine and also the U.S. as their going into this critical period?

VOLKER: Well, I think, first off, Hegseth, I think, in his prepared remarks, was actually being very careful. And take the point about NATO. He didn't say that Ukraine would never be a member of NATO. He said that it would not be a result of negotiations with Russia.

I think that is very realistic. It is not going to be something Russia agrees to. In fact, we shouldn't even be talking to Russia about that. It's none of their business. It's something for Ukraine and NATO to work out themselves.

So I think the way these were originally written and prepared by the administration, cleared by the White House, there was nothing really wrong there. And I think people are just very, very sensitive to reacting to that.

And there, I think you make a very good point. Because people are so sensitive, because nerves are so much on edge, it is worth being a little bit extra careful with the language.

KEILAR: Have you heard anything from Trump or Hegseth here in the last couple of days that has not been music to Russia's ears.

VOLKER: Well, I think, yes. And to take it back more than a couple of days. But President Trump has indicated that if Putin does not end the war, then he would have to look at further sanctions or taxes or tariffs.

He first put out there that, OK, we'll visit each other's countries. And then he backed off of that and said, well, the first time we're going to meet, it's actually going to be in Saudi Arabia. So he's pulling that back a little bit.

And what he is -- what Trump is really doing is he's putting pressure on -- on Putin. He knows that Putin's economy is weak, his military is in bad shape, and he's threatening to escalate in terms of driving down energy prices, maintaining the sanctions on Russian energy.

And then, even talking about if we get, you know, billions of dollars- worth of minerals, we'll keep up military aid to Ukraine. All of that is stuff that I think was causing Putin to feel that he was not in the negotiation.

I think that's why he let Marc Gogel go. And I think that's why Trump then called him to get this process started.

This is just the beginning. I think there's going to be a lot of dialog between the U.S. and the Ukrainians, between the U.S. and Russia, perhaps the three even together, with our European allies as well.

Because President Trump wants to have our European allies take on the lion's share of the burden of deterring future Russian attacks. So there's a lot of work yet to be done. And this is just the beginning of getting people to the table.

KEILAR: Ambassador Kurt Volker, thank you so much for being with us. It is a critical time and we appreciate you speaking with us. VOLKER: Pleasure. Thank you.

[13:38:56]

KEILAR: And still to come, longtime vaccine critic, RFK Jr, set to take over the nation's top health post. What his confirmation means for you.

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[13:43:29]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Just minutes from now. Robert F Kennedy Jr will be the -- will be sworn in as the secretary of Health and Human Services. His confirmation vote earlier today went mostly along party lines, except for a very public defection by former majority leader, Mitch McConnell.

Meantime, Kash Patel's nomination to lead the FBI has advanced to the Senate floor. He's previously been under fire for spreading right-wing conspiracy theories and pledging retribution against President Trump's opponents.

Let's go to CNN chief congressional correspondent, Manu Raju, who is live for us on Capitol Hill.

Manu, this rejection by Mitch McConnell of RFK Jr's nomination means that now he's voted against three of Trump's cabinet picks.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and he's the only Republican Senator who has voted against more than one of Donald Trump's cabinet picks. A remarkable trajectory in this political career.

Of course, he was the longest-serving Senate leader of any party in U.S. history, someone who did, in the first Trump term, usher through much of Donald Trump's agenda, even getting three Supreme Court nominees to the bench.

The falling out of -- famous falling out in the aftermath of the January 6th attack did not talk to Trump, really has not since the aftermath of the 2020 election. Did endorse him for his own 2024 reelection bid.

But really now, in this moment in his career, as a rank-and-file member, showing independence from Donald Trump and voting against Robert F. Kennedy Jr in the aftermath of opposing Tulsi Gabbard as director of National Intelligence and Pete Hegseth to be the defense secretary.

[13:44:59]

Now, in his statement about why he opposed RFK Jr, he noted the fact that he's a childhood polio survivor and talked about the importance of vaccines. And of course, RFK Jr has been a longtime vaccine skeptic. He tried to

walk back and clean up those remarks throughout this confirmation process.

But McConnell said that "A record of trafficking in dangerous conspiracy theories and eroding trust in public health institutions does not entitle Mr. Kennedy to lead these important efforts."

Now, that's important to note. He did not -- he was the only Republican who came out in opposition to Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Kennedy was able to assuage other Republicans who had concerns about his views on vaccines.

Including Senator Lisa Murkowski, a longtime swing vote on the GOP side, who I asked about his -- about the commitments he gave her on the issues of vaccine.

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SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI (R-AK): Well, I think there are many of us who have asked for specific commitments, most specifically related to vaccines. And we want to be able to hold him accountable to that.

So we're going to be checking him in, we're going to be calling him in and we're going to be following through.

RAJU: Do you trust him that on vaccines or do you trust that he's going to --

(CROSSTALK)

MURKOWSKI: Were going to hold him accountable. And that's how we will get the trust.

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RAJU: All 47 Democrats voted against RFK Jr., including the other one, of course, Mitch McConnell making it a 52-48 vote.

But then also today, on another party line vote, this was Kash Patel to be the next FBI director, advanced on the Senate Judiciary Committee on a 12 to 10 vote. That sets up his confirmation for that critical post by next week, despite the Democratic opposition.

But we'll see what Mitch McConnell does. Is he does he defect on that one? He still hasn't said on Kash Patel nomination as well -- Boris?

SANCHEZ: Yes, well see what McConnell does.

Manu Raju, forcing press aides to hit the "close" button repeatedly on elevators --

(LAUGHTER)

SANCHEZ: -- out on Capitol Hill for us. Thank you so much, Manu. Coming up, Israel's ceasefire deal with Hamas appears to be on track.

Hamas says it will release Israeli hostages this weekend as initially planned. Well get into why in just a few minutes.

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[13:51:40]

KEILAR: Welcome back to CNN NEWS CENTRAL. Here are some of the other headlines that we're watching this hour.

Hamas says it will release Israeli hostages as initially planned, after what they described as "positive talks with mediators."

Earlier this week, Hamas had accused Israel of violating the ceasefire agreement and called off the planned hostage release for Saturday. In response, Israel warned that it would return to fighting.

For now, the ceasefire appears to be holding. One Israeli official today telling CNN there is no appetite in the government leadership to abandon the deal.

Back here in the U.S., evacuation warnings have been issued in southern California over fears a strong storm could cause flooding and life-threatening debris flows.

Communities near fire-scarred areas most at risk here, with portions of San Bernardino, Santa Barbara, Orange and Los Angeles Counties under alerts. Several areas of Santa Cruz County are also being told to evacuate due to possible river flooding.

And Nissan and Honda have ended discussions on a deal to merge what would have created the world's third-largest car maker. The deal would have given the carmakers more firepower to compete with China, and more resources to remain competitive as the industry transitions to electric vehicles.

But after just a few weeks, negotiations stalled. Nissan did say the two companies will collaborate within the framework of a strategic partnership.

Boris?

SANCHEZ: A new CNN original series explores the circumstances behind the bombing of Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, back in 1988. The four-part series tracks the global investigation and trial that continues to play out on the world stage more than 35 years later.

CNN international diplomatic editor, Nic Robertson, gives us a preview.

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NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, this was the biggest terrorist attack on an airline ever. It would go on to shape the way that we travel today.

And 270 people killed aboard Pan Am 103. It was just getting up to altitude to cross the Atlantic, over 30,000 feet. Barely an hour into the flight, if that, when the bomb exploded, bringing it down.

It created the biggest crime scene in history, 845 square miles, the scatter of the debris, 200,000 pieces of evidence.

And it would take more than a month before investigators found one of the key pieces of evidence that would push them in the direction of their search for the culprits.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In late January or early February, we found a suitcase.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Many of the suitcases that fell 31,000 feet to the ground. It would have been a great commercial. They fell intact. You could take the clothes out, put them on and go to a meeting.

But this suitcase was in about 54 pieces and fragments. We pretty much thought that suitcase contained the explosive, the bomb that blew up the plane.

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ROBERTSON: And eventually, it would be a tiny fragment of circuit board found in one of the exploded and burned items of clothing from that suitcase. It was found 20 miles from the impact site in Lockerbie.

[13:55:02]

And that piece of circuit board, in of itself, would become very contentious through the court case that would ultimately see the two Libyans accused of the bombing brought to a Scottish court set up in the Netherlands.

That circuit board, made by a manufacturer in Switzerland, a circuit board timer. And it would be what would get a lot of heated debate, cause consternation for the victims' families.

Eventually, one Libyan, Abdelbaset al-Megrahi, going to jail in Scotland for the crime.

But it's not over yet. Another Libyan due to stand trial for the bringing down of Pan Am 103, in Lockerbie, Scotland, due to stand trial in the United States in just a few months.

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SANCHEZ: Our thanks to Nic Robertson for that report.

Be sure to tune in, "LOCKERBIE THE BOMBING OF PAN AM 103," the two- part premiere airs on Sunday at 9:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific, right here on CNN.

Happening now, President Trump announcing a new round of sweeping reciprocal tariffs. We'll take you live to the White House for the announcement. Don't go anywhere.

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